DU.. Du hast.. Du hast birth defects?

[FMBI]

Link

 

I've been wondering about this for a few years, because I couldn't think of a reason to use DU in Afghanistan, but it seemed logical enough that if there was an opportunity, we'd take it.

 

I doubt this will ever become too controversial, as, even !@#$%^&*uming it can be 100% proven, it will still be easily dodged, no matter who's holding the reins in the next 4-8 years.

 

Additionally, since a relatively small number of international troops have been stationed in Afghanistan, and because the country isn't as centralised as some of the other central asian states, I'd guess that there's less risk of DU contamination to the average Afghan.

 

Finally, this could just be left-over contamination from the Soviet invasion, as they used it for ammo in the T-62, T-72, T-, and T-90. In that case, we just get a chance to bash Russia.

 

 

On the other hand, this brings back into public awareness the far more worrying side of the coin - the use of DU in Iraq during GW1 and GW2.

 

If the effects seen in Afghanistan are really linked to DU, then consider the fact that currently hundreds of thousands of US military personnel and millions of Iraqis have been exposed for between 5 and 15 years (and, it seems likely, will be there for 25 or so total) to very high (thousands of tons IIRC) of DU dust in the air and water.

 

What the !@#$%^&* will we do if we find out we've got bigger problems than post traumatic stress?

[NBVegita]

"Following the use of DU weapons in Iraq and the Balkans, the World Health Organization (WHO) researched the impact on health and the environment.

 

It concluded, as did a 2001 European Union enquiry into the Balkans conflict, that DU posed little threat. "

 

As of now I'd say it's not going to become a controversy because there is very little evidence, besides coincidental, that American weapons containing DU are causing the problems.

 

Now if further evidence comes out and shows that their is some substantial evidence that we caused this, that is a mess of trouble.

 

I'm not saying it's not possible, but for now it's looking highly unlikely.

[Dav]

depleated unrainium is still a dangerous material, this is where the prbolem lies.

 

After years of fighting it is something that is going to be quite abundant.

 

I can garuntee somone will come out with "its a price worth paying for freedom" to try and sweep it under the carpet though.

[Aileron]

Well, to answer the question of why DU is used, ammunition must be made of a dense material. Pretty much, our options are lead, uranium, plutonium, and gold. Bullets used to be made of lead, but they switched to DU because of lead poisoning. Gold is obviously too expensive, and plutonium isn't any improvement on Uranium.

 

I'll admit I don't get the switch away from lead either. I've been to Gettysburg, the site of a huge battle where a lot of lead was sent flying, and the environment there appears fine to me.

 

 

As for the hazards of DU, it never ceases to amaze me how many people are paranoid about anything radiation related. It annoyed me like heck every time I have had to say, "No ma'am, one x-ray isn't going to give you cancer." The reason the adjective 'depleted' is used is because the material is no longer radioactive. I mean, sure, there's going to be one or two atoms out of millions that missed the fission process, as well as some neutrons flying around which would be present in any material that was that close to a nuclear reactor, but all and all Depleted Uranium is a nearly inert material. It largely consists of the stable nuclide of Uranium that will no longer experience radioactive decay. Generally, DU isn't radioactive enough to penetrate the steel which they are encased in. That, and keep in mind bullets are relatively small things, and they are spread over a wide area. Again, lead couldn't cause large disasters, and it causes cancer a lot more than DU does.

 

 

If a pregnant woman decided to eat the contents of a 50 round Carbine clip of ammunition, there maybe could be enough radiation to give her child a birth defect. Even then it would be unlikely.

 

 

No, there isn't some big conspiracy to use radioactive weapons, and no, getting bit by a radioactive spider will not give you super powers.

 

Trust me, I know. Both my parents have worked in nuclear power plants, Three Mile Island is involved in my dad's "How I met your mother" speech, there was radon in my basement growing up, I actually live in the county where Depleted Uranium ammunition is made, and I spent a few years working x-rays in a hospital. Believe it or not, after all that exposure I haven't mutated. That is, unless you count my ability to read minds. BTW, your mind says: "Wha? Oh...this arrogant !@#$%^&*hole is being sarcastic."

[JDS]

hmmmm. would the US government really use somthing that could potentialy hurt its own soldiers.. i mean if the bullets have radiation.. they are pretty close to the soldier at all times? So yea, either they dont care about soldiers health, or they really are depleted ;p

[Bak]

if it is true, it's not exactly hurting the soldiers, just causing birth defects. Also, soldiers don't live in these areas for years on end, drinking local water and eating local food.

[Aileron]

Look, there's no way a gram of Depleted Uranium is going to have enough radiation to do much of anything. It's like asking if someone could die of alcohol poisoning after drinking half a can of Bud Light. The scientific response is: NO FRIGGIN' WAY!!!

[ThunderJam]

Yea theres uhm... quiet a few logical mis-!@#$%^&*umptions in there...

 

>> "A Canadian research group found very high levels of uranium in Afghans during tests just after the invasion. "

 

Just after the invasion? I'm sure that "JUST" after the invasion our weapons had been able to make any significant difference yet. Any difference would be over a long period of time (like studies from this year are better than this one)

 

 

>> "Doctors in Kabul and Kandahar showed data indicating that the incidence of a number of health conditions, including birth defects, has doubled in under two years. "

 

Cmon basic Statistics, a correlation does not mean a cause and effect relationship. Maybe consider all the economic and health problems posed by living in a country at war? Food problems? Lack of available health care? Poor living conditions/nutrition for pregnant mothers? Sure the defect is at the same time as the war, that doesnt mean that the weapons are the cause of it though at all.

 

And about urine samples being hundreds of times higher than vietnam vets... well lets think... Before and after vietnam vets were in vietnam, where were they? Living in a country where they were at peace. What about these afghans? Oh I forgot, even before we were there they are always in local war...

 

 

In conclusions: its just a huge stretch to go from 'Correlation between wartime and baby health' and 'baby defects are caused by a specific element of american weapons from the war'

[FMBI]

Yea theres uhm... quiet a few logical mis-!@#$%^&*umptions in there...

 

>> "A Canadian research group found very high levels of uranium in Afghans during tests just after the invasion. "

 

Just after the invasion? I'm sure that "JUST" after the invasion our weapons had been able to make any significant difference yet. Any difference would be over a long period of time (like studies from this year are better than this one)

 

 

>> "Doctors in Kabul and Kandahar showed data indicating that the incidence of a number of health conditions, including birth defects, has doubled in under two years. "

 

Cmon basic Statistics, a correlation does not mean a cause and effect relationship. Maybe consider all the economic and health problems posed by living in a country at war? Food problems? Lack of available health care? Poor living conditions/nutrition for pregnant mothers? Sure the defect is at the same time as the war, that doesnt mean that the weapons are the cause of it though at all.

 

And about urine samples being hundreds of times higher than vietnam vets... well lets think... Before and after vietnam vets were in vietnam, where were they? Living in a country where they were at peace. What about these afghans? Oh I forgot, even before we were there they are always in local war...

 

 

In conclusions: its just a huge stretch to go from 'Correlation between wartime and baby health' and 'baby defects are caused by a specific element of american weapons from the war'

 

TJ, you're right that it doesn't necessarily have a cause-and-effect relationship, and, as I mentioned, it might even be left-over from the Russo-Afghan war (they did use chemical weapons, why not tactical nukes?) - however, your !@#$%^&*ertion that elevated levels of uranium in urine could be due to tribal warfare which mainly utilises AK-47s, RPGs, and stripped Soviet equipment is worse than ridiculous.

 

Additionally, while some health problems could be due to the war at large, that still doesn't exactly absolve us of responsibility, does it?

 

And finally - Due to DU's pyrophoric and highly explosive properties, it could quickly be released into the environment in the form of particulates and shrapnel, thus making for a one-two punch - first, you get it into your skin early, then the rest of it settles into the environment and poisons the area for quite a while into the future.

 

Note that this is all "speculation", as there have been a lot of studies going both ways. One thing I've noted, though, is that most of the studies done which say that DU is harmless have been !@#$%^&*ociated with military contractors, right-wing think tanks, and the like.

 

In any case, the DU issue will be resolved by 2018 or so. If it isn't toxic, then we'll just have vets with PTSD, lost limbs, mental illnesses, and minor wounds - if it is toxic, then we'll see a massive health problem increase among vets, we'll see cancer epidemics in Afghanistan and Iraq, and we'll gain [even more] international condemnation.

[sil]

however, your !@#$%^&*ertion that elevated levels of uranium in urine could be due to tribal warfare which mainly utilises AK-47s, RPGs, and stripped Soviet equipment is worse than ridiculous.

Where did he make such an !@#$%^&*ertion?

[FMBI]

And about urine samples being hundreds of times higher than vietnam vets... well lets think... Before and after vietnam vets were in vietnam, where were they? Living in a country where they were at peace. What about these afghans? Oh I forgot, even before we were there they are always in local war...

[sil]

That has nothing to do wit the !@#$%^&*ertion that you made. Let me repeat again what you said.

 

however, your !@#$%^&*ertion that elevated levels of uranium in urine could be due to tribal warfare which mainly utilises AK-47s, RPGs, and stripped Soviet equipment is worse than ridiculous.

ThunderJam makes no claim that the source of uranium is due to " AK-47s, RPGs, and stripped Soviet equipment"

[Aileron]

Is this topic still going on?

 

DU is not potent enough to cause radiation damage in half-gram increments. No radioactive material comes even close to being that concentrated, and if it was, there would be no way for that material to remain such a concentrated source of radiation for any significant amount of time.

[ThunderJam]

That has nothing to do wit the !@#$%^&*ertion that you made. Let me repeat again what you said.

 

however, your !@#$%^&*ertion that elevated levels of uranium in urine could be due to tribal warfare which mainly utilises AK-47s, RPGs, and stripped Soviet equipment is worse than ridiculous.

ThunderJam makes no claim that the source of uranium is due to " AK-47s, RPGs, and stripped Soviet equipment"

He means that "local war" is using those weapons, and thus that the uranium could not be due to local war. However maybe I used bad wording when I said local war. Like you already said, there could be some consequences from war with Russia. My point was, we are not the only source of violence over there, and theres plenty of stuff that has gone there over the years that I'm sure we don't even know about.

 

The combination of what ail said (the minimal amount of DU our weapons have) and the fact that we havn't been there long and they are in constant war without us, puts this discussion to rest I think.