Possible Flagging Changes

[Dr Brain]

The devs and I have been talking about changing the flag game for a while, but there's a chance we might actually do it soon.

 

My proposal is to:

 

• Disable neuting of flags. Any neuts would drop owned, and the flag game would be won 3 minutes after all flags are dropped on a team (it's 10 seconds now). This would also stop any quickwinning issues.
  
• Increase the base flag reward substantially. Something on the order of $5,000 and 10 exp.
  
• Remove the jackpot so there's less incentive to milk the flag game for hours.
  

 

These should make flag games last between 10 and 20 minutes each.

 

Arnk has suggested that with bountying, people will never bother to win flag games. They'll just hoard flags and rack up cash. I've got a couple of solutions, and want to know what you guys think about them:

 

• Try anyway. See if flag games get longer, or if they get significantly shorter.
  
• Remove bountying entirely. Money wouldn't be based on bounty at all. It would only be based on exp of the two players.
  
• Remove bountying only in bases. People would still make bounty rewards in the center sector.
  
• Insert idea here?
  

 

Everything proposed above can be implemented very quickly. I'd rather not use a solution that requires a substantial module, as we already have plenty of stuff on our programming plate.

[Exiili]

People don't bother to win flag games, because the rewards are inferior to the money and exp you make just by flagging. Unless you runwin the jackpot money is only a tiny bonus. The real problem isn't the length of the game, but the fact that one team WILL get stacked to !@#$%^&* and they will proceed to destroy the enemy teams until they give up and leave. After the enemy team has left and there's nothing left to do, it's time to claim the jackpot. Then most players of this team will also leave.

 

Removing bountying is a REALLY bad idea. Please, don't do that. I can't say what exactly would happen, but whatever happens is EVIL.

[Dr Brain]

Sorry I didn't make myself clear. This is not a discussion on how flagging is broken. It's a discussion on how to fix it.

[Syrith]

Lower the price of rushing consumables.

Removing bountying defeats the purpose of basing and would drastically lower income, also bounty is a good way to keep track of someone's spree.

[vetta64]

^^

Why get rid of something that people like. I love the idea of increasing the flag gamse especially by increases in the rushing options. But please don't nerf the bty. It is a fun challange and one of the things people enjoy. It does ruin the zone.

 

You can also make the jackpot start off rather large so people arent waiting so long to win and just have it increase by small increments. Rather than relying on the kills to build the jackpot.

[vetta64]

If you want to nerf something to increase flag games 1. somehow reduce team hopping, 2 eliminate the priv freq, and just make two massive pub freqs.

 

Those are the two things in my opinion that ruin the flag game.

[Matrim Cauthon]

If you want to nerf something to increase flag games 1. somehow reduce team hopping, 2 eliminate the priv freq, and just make two massive pub freqs.

some people like to priv, 2 massive pub freqs get boring after a while. I agree that team hopping needs to be changed. I think if reps price were made free or significantly lowered, and same with burst, more people will rush, thus everyone will have a good rush ship, whereas right now, only the people that arent hoarding every penny they have rush.

 

# Remove bountying entirely. Money wouldn't be based on bounty at all. It would only be based on exp of the two players.

# Remove bountying only in bases. People would still make bounty rewards in the center sector.

i think without a large money incentive, most people will win as soon as they get them, or not bother basing at all, since the reward will be so low, and if this was done with the current repel and burst cost, i think rushing will also be lowered significantly Edited April 11, 2008 by Matrim Cauthon

[Dr Brain]

The idea *is* to have teams win as soon as they get all the flags.

[AiG]

• Disable neuting of flags. Any neuts would drop owned, and the flag game would be won 3 minutes after all flags are dropped on a team (it's 10 seconds now). This would also stop any quickwinning issues.
  

 

I don't think this is a good idea. Since run winning will become easier with this implementation. People can hide flags and wait for 3 mins to win.

 

With the current method, run winning is made hard, which is good. Also, the current method also balances out the attacking and defending roles, since now it requires 3 people to drop flag. While 3 people are dropping flags, defenders will generally have a handicapp of having 3 less players to hold/defend the line.

 

But, I think we need to fix the flag being converted (dropped as owned) when you are tk'ed by a teamate that is also holding flags. This way no quick drops is possible.

 

Edit: Nevermind, if the idea is to have teams win the flag game as soon as they get all the flags, then I guess you can ignore what I said above.

Edited April 11, 2008 by AiG

[Choose Profile]

Brain, since your goal is to get players to win as soon as they get all flags, then your proposal will probaly work. On the other hand, I dont see this proposal as actually getting anyone to want to flag. You're suggestions remove the fun out of flagging, I really dont see the point in trying to make games last as short as possible. Why not just remove basing altogether?

 

Personally if your proposal is fully implemented, I would see no reason to bother flagging. I'm not sure about others, but i play HS, and flag in hs, because i like to. As far as I can tell, your proposal will make flagging nothing more than a way to make a little bit of money, while eliminating the possibility to make more so.

 

So if your goal is to "fix" the "broken" flagging system, your ideas should work. But I do not see anyone wanting to play this "fixed" version.

[Dr Brain]

Flag games that go on for hours aren't any more fun. Especially since the other team quits as soon as the winning team starts to win.

[Choose Profile]

If the flag game is lasting for HOURS, obviously both teams are still competing with one another. Seeing as you very rarely flag, how do you know that long lasting flag games arent fun? I think they are. I believe the "flagging problem" in basing games has more to do with settings imbalance rather than how flag games are structured. Why not work on balancing teams and item usage during flag games isntead of just changing how the flag game operates. You're going to have the same problems that flaggers dislike now, even if you change how long the flag games last.

[vetta64]

^^

[Dr Brain]

If the flag game is lasting for HOURS, obviously both teams are still competing with one another. Seeing as you very rarely flag, how do you know that long lasting flag games arent fun? I think they are. I believe the "flagging problem" in basing games has more to do with settings imbalance rather than how flag games are structured. Why not work on balancing teams and item usage during flag games isntead of just changing how the flag game operates. You're going to have the same problems that flaggers dislike now, even if you change how long the flag games last.

 

If you call competing one team holding all the flags and holding off the other until the JP gets high enough, yeah they're competing.

 

Because having no chance of winning isn't fun. Most vets probably like flagging now because they win and make a tidy profit off of it. I'm *not* trying to make flagging make any less money. I'm trying to open the doors for the newbies.

[vetta64]

can you make it more like balling where every one gets like 300 instead of dividing 10k by 19 different people. Jackpot does not increase. Set amount to win would make people win sooner, and the team with the flags would get to decide if they want to milk it.

 

Then you just reset flags game every two hours or so just so one team doesnt milk it for longer.

Edited April 14, 2008 by vetta64

[Choose Profile]

If the flag game is lasting for HOURS, obviously both teams are still competing with one another. Seeing as you very rarely flag, how do you know that long lasting flag games arent fun? I think they are. I believe the "flagging problem" in basing games has more to do with settings imbalance rather than how flag games are structured. Why not work on balancing teams and item usage during flag games isntead of just changing how the flag game operates. You're going to have the same problems that flaggers dislike now, even if you change how long the flag games last.

 

If you call competing one team holding all the flags and holding off the other until the JP gets high enough, yeah they're competing.

 

Because having no chance of winning isn't fun. Most vets probably like flagging now because they win and make a tidy profit off of it. I'm *not* trying to make flagging make any less money. I'm trying to open the doors for the newbies.

 

What "vets" still play? These recent changes have only caused dissinterest in HS, and pretty much all of the old-time players have "quit" or just have stopped coming back. Just look at our forums for the past week, public hasnt even gotten a post in 4 days, and the general population of players who float in and out is beginning to thin out again.

 

I definately see how there are serious problems with flagging right now, but I think you're changes are not going to fix anything.

 

And as far as flag games lasting so long, I don't think people would play for HOURS if they weren't fun. 2+ months after a reset, money and exp do not hold much importance, and flagging for the fun of it comes into the picture. I do not see how flag games lasting for hours on end is an indication that they are not fun. Yes, you are very correct that ONE TEAM holding all of the flags the entire team is not much fun, but this issue has nothing to do with the lenght of the flag game. The one sidedness of flag games has everything to do with imbalance, and your changes will do nothing to correct those imbalances. Instead of 3 hour long one sided matches, there will just be 9 20-minute long one sided matches.

[Matrim Cauthon]

If you call competing one team holding all the flags and holding off the other until the JP gets high enough, yeah they're competing.

 

Because having no chance of winning isn't fun. Most vets probably like flagging now because they win and make a tidy profit off of it. I'm *not* trying to make flagging make any less money. I'm trying to open the doors for the newbies.

 

1. with the amount of people basing right now, 2 pub freqs going at each other wont produce much of a jackpot even after hours of play, the jackpot is generally around 5k when people win, thats very little. Most money comes from the actual basing, although the defending team usually make more of a profit, the attacking team can also make a tidy profit as well, even then, both teams makes a lot more than what the jackpot gives.

2. some vets hop to losing team, just to get the basing game going again; the flags aren't important, whats important is the fun from flagging.

 

[p.s-i think most people here support the free repel and/or the free burst idea to increase the amount of people who rush. I think people will agree with me that this can help flagging as flag games were more balanced in the previous resets since everyone has a rusher, and they are more or less just as good as other peoples. Currently, its like less than half of a team(especially attacking freqs, since effective rushing=loss of money) rushes, with most people gunning on the spot, hoping someone clears the way for them.]

Edited April 15, 2008 by Matrim Cauthon

[linger]

I dont like brains ideas but i a, to tired to put in a long response what your saying isnt going to fix flagging its going to hurt it but if you want some good ideas you have like 5 different posts on here that are all good ideas and come from people who actualy flag why not use one of them

[Dr Brain]

I dont like brains ideas but i a, to tired to put in a long response what your saying isnt going to fix flagging its going to hurt it but if you want some good ideas you have like 5 different posts on here that are all good ideas and come from people who actualy flag why not use one of them

 

Because they either are impossible to implement or overlook basic aspects.

 

I'm no longer planning on implementing this proposed idea, btw. No one seemed receptive, and I didn't figure out how to overcome the bountying issue.

[Acer]

• Remove bountying only in bases. People would still make bounty rewards in the center sector.
  

 

Yes this is a vary good idea. Because it stops people from saying " Win the flag game when so and so dies, because he has teh most bounty" so it really evens the game out. So that the defending team haves a better change. Well just chaning the bounty won't really give them a better chaneg but the 3 Min flag thing will.

Edited May 9, 2008 by Acer101

[cow888]

I need to start posting in threads relevant to my interests... it doesn't matter now, but I'mma post my support for disabling neutralizing anyway: as long as winning flag games is decided by when a team wants to win instead of which team plays better, we're going to have complaints every time a basing game ends, and it would "solve" the "problems" !@#$%^&*ociated with runwinning and hiding flags just to stall a game.