Siege Mounts

[Unix]

Why were bursts taken off of them?

[Rivel]

Ya, How are we supposed to rush now?

[Suicide_Run]

Its nerfed so people cant lob thors randomly and be able to rush afterwards.

[Unix]

Suicide, if you dont have any reps, your bursts wont do much if you cant get deep enough. If you're able to dodge bombs and guns to get deep enough, I think you deserve to burst in their faces.

 

Not only that, these changes were done in the middle of a 23v23 flag game, that I dont understand...

Edited March 8, 2008 by Unix

[vetta64]

Why in the world would you nerf something that would mainly be used by the attacking team?

[Unix]

Arnks reasoning for doing it....

 

Siege mount was used for double thors mainly, having more items along with thors was bad.

He states he is going to add a new mount or item that will allow bursts to be on your ship as a subs!@#$%^&*ute.

 

 

That's still not a good reason for taking bursts out. Bursts are needed to attack properly, and at the SAME time, if you want to use bursts effectively, your ship does need reps so it can get deep enough into the enemy line to work well. So in other words, you cant have two thors if you want to have at "least" two reps. (a lot of times two isnt even enough)

 

The second point why this is bad is because it makes the wzl a useless base ship. Right now, the only advantage the wzl had over a terrier was that the wzl could bomb a lot better. In almost every aspect (except energy), the wzl is an inferior ship to the terrier.

 

If you did your mounts right, you could have a ship that could double thor and rush in a base, making it a superior basing ship over the terrier.

 

With Arnk's new "mount" that he said is coming soon, that will allow you to carry reps, this makes the terrier probably the only viable rushing ship and the only viable basing ship.

 

The terrier can do anything you can do pretty much. It can rush, it can gun, it can bomb semi effectively, it can cloak, it can have antiwarp/xradar, it can field, it can hold signatures.

 

Why wouldnt anyone want to terr instead of anything else now? Other than double thorring, but hey, a Terrier can survive 3-4 thors, let's not forget, it can also rep.

[Suicide_Run]

Vetta....defenders uses them too. I think this nerf benefits the attacking freq vetta. That way ppl on the defending freq cant thor you to pieces, then rush in to wipe you out cause your freq is either: Dead/Reattaching due to thors or barely alive from thors.

 

I think the changes done in the middle of game is bad but I suppose its to help diversify ships so you cant thor and rush at the same time?

[Unix]

Suicide, I've stated this before twice so far...

 

 

To effectively use those bursts, you need reps. How many double thor ships do you know that can actually rush well and thor well?

[Suicide_Run]

Yes Unix, I can see your stating something but what are you arguing about?

 

Normal Double Thor Ships cant rush in the beginning. By normal, I mean just only double siege mount without extra mount/deflectors. So why is it a problem for attackers when they barely get a chance to use it cause they cant get close enough?

 

Even if they had deflector + extra mount + defense mount, they arent gonna be as effective as someone who has 2 defense mount cause they have the extra reps which allows them to get closer.

 

Your not seeing how this nerf is meant (or at least I see it that way) to weaken defending thoring ships. Attackers will always require reps to rush cause they need to rep away the bombs/bullets aways coming their way. While defendings has it easier cause attackers arent usually bombline/gunlining you.

 

Therefore defenders cant do what it was able to do: thor and then burst, which puts attacking thorers and defending thorers on the same ground.

 

You can still double thor and rush if you have the money and customized your ship properly. But the point is that you cant do it as effective as someone who just has defense mounts/bust mount (when ever they come out).

[Unix]

That's the point - If you cant use those bursts well in the first place, why have them taken away? How does that make double thorring less attractive?

 

However, in this case, this is the only thing that made wzl a better option than terrier. It could thor and rush.

 

Tell me, why wouldnt someone get a terrier if they're not using the ship to thor?

[Traced.]

I think it was pretty stupid, not only immature to remove the burst. If nothing else it should have waited until the flag game was over..Only makes the person removing them look like a coward, b/c he was afraid of the bursts. The whole point of a Wzl is rushing wtf good is it if it can't? IMO, now ppl will be thor whoring more, b/c they can't use the burst they bought. If you remove something like that, you should lower the price of siege, and give us our money back. I say fix it and stop being dumb, thors were more of a problem, not Unix scaring you with her burst power while rushing. Edited March 8, 2008 by Traced.

[oid]

I have a simple solution to all of you whining newbs (just unix):

?buy defense mount

 

 

That is all.

[Suicide_Run]

Unix, you just want to be able to wipe out the attacking freq with your wzl when you already have the advantage as a defendant.

 

Traced, the siege mount sell price got boosted. Between please explain to me how removing burst from siege mount causes people to use thors more when people rarely use those bursts to begin with...

[Unix]

If they rarely use those bursts to begin with, how is is supposed to make thorring less attractive? Since that's the entire point of removing bursts from siege mount.

 

And just fyi, I still wipe out teams

[Traced.]

B/c now we are stuck with just thors, what else are we to use?

And i used my bursts all the time, when lil sharks tried rushing past.

[Unix]

The distinct advantage that the wzl had was the bomb speed and the ability to use the item setup of... "Siege x2 - Defense - Deflector" giving it 2 thors, 3 bursts, 2 reps.

 

Wzl would be the only ship in the entire zone that could use that setup effectively. Otherwise, anything a wzl can do, a terr can do better. Which right now is the case.

 

Realistically how wzl's do you see? Now compare that to the amount terrs you see. Better yet, how many good wzl's are there? Now compare that to how many good terrs there are.

 

The purpose of taking bursts away from siege mount was to try and decrease thorring, which I agree is something that should be done, the thing is though, it isnt going to do much of anything to stop thorring, and having it actually benefited the zone because it gave wzl a chance to actually be used by people if they put in some effort into making the wzl. I personally thought that that setup for wzl was superior than anything a terrier could offer, so I went with wzl, but now that siege mount no longer has the burst, the wzl is nothing more than a weaker version of the terrier.

 

Why make a change that pushes people toward only one ship?

 

Btw, I will make due with what the settings offer, in fact I already have. I still am able to rush/push and do it well with my wzl. So please dont think that I'm trying to keep my old wzl because I cant cope with the changes in the zone.

Edited March 9, 2008 by Unix

[oid]

If they rarely use those bursts to begin with, how is is supposed to make thorring less attractive? Since that's the entire point of removing bursts from siege mount.

 

Obviously its less attractive now since you are complaining about it.

[Unix]

I'm using thors strategically, unlike others who only do it for exp/parasite feeding/easy kills.

 

I'm complaining about it because it ruins the usefulness of a ship that's already rarely used and favors a ship that's already overused in the zone.

[Suicide_Run]

Is that what Arnk said? That Removing burst makes thoring less attractive or is that what you think? The only reason it will reduce thoring is by forcing rushers to stop thoring before they rush towards nme by making them buy defense mount.

 

Btw...from what I can piece together, you guys seem to have brought Siege Mount for the sake of burst for rushing instead of thoring. And thors from siege mount is just a side bonus.

 

A jav can still use 2 Siege, Defense, Deflector properly. Your just trading off nrg, bomb speed, emp bomb for size, speed, thrust.

 

There are no such thing as comparing good terr vs good wzl. The word good can mean rushing/thoring/btying/etc. What makes the ship good is person behind it, not the ship itself.

 

Most ppl have terr as a Bounty-ing ship not a rushing ship. Are you saying that once you use the same layout for a terr as you have for your wzl, the terr will be magically stronger at rushing and able to clear nme much easier?

Edited March 9, 2008 by Suicide_Run

[Unix]

That is what Arnk said when I spoke to him that day he removed bursts from siege mount.

 

Even if they thor, the likelihood of them rushing deep enough to let off an effective burst at the enemy is very small, especially seeing as how most are low energy javs.

 

And I stated this before, but the Wzl had the advantage of being able to thor and weaken the enemy somewhat before rushing in, whereas a terr (with better stats to rush mind you, other than energy) would just rush in with more reps so it could get in deeper. A wzl's strength over the terr was what made the wzl somewhat more attractive than a terr, and some people were actually beginning to realize it.

 

I've never seen a jav rush well consistently.

 

The ship itself makes a huge difference. A Terrier can do everything equally, if not better than pretty much all the other ships. If you're going to do something, say bounty for example, why are you going to go into an inferior ship if you dont have to?

 

What I was comparing though was... A terr and wzl - All things being equal - Same player, same items to help rush - The terr is a better ship because it's stats are better than the wzl all around for pure rushing (no thorring involved) - Not only that, but the terr can supplement guns, whereas the wzl MUST use salvo as it's bomb, if a terr uses salvo as it's bomb, not a big deal, it's main weapon is actualy gunning, and it has access to some of the best guns in zone too.

 

Suicide, you have a terr for bntying, and the majority of the zone also have a terr that can bnty, but at the same time rush. Since all a bnty terr is is a terr with plasma.

[Suicide_Run]

I think thats a silly way to just prevent thoring. If it was meant to prevent thor+rush combo then that will make better sense =.=.

 

I dont think the difference of terr vs wzl in rushing is dramatic. Like you will feel like your rushing abit better but not to a point where being in terr allows you to push nme really really back.

 

Jav is ok at rushing, but compared to a more expensive/exp required ship then its obvious its inferior.

 

Pretty much any bty ship can rush given you give them the right mounts. But what I am saying is that a bty ship's effectiveness in rushing isnt gonna be as good as a pure rushing ship.

[Kilo]

It comes down to this: I regret allowing two siege mounts in the first place but it'd take too much effort to change that now. So now if you want a more well rounded ship you'll have to sell one of your two siege mounts. This idea was brought up in a random discussion in the middle of the flag game and implemented because I liked it, the timing is irrelevant because it affects everyone.

[Unix]

Timing not irrelevant because the opposing team was getting owned completely.

 

Something else is, why shouldnt the attacking freq be able to do the exact same thing as the defending freq?