Balancing issues

[Manivo]

Hey guys. To the request of Cerium and uh... I forgot who else - I'm making this thread mainly to list my complaints and suggestions regarding the balancing of the zone and provide a thread for others' opinions.

 

Now, before this I would like to make the disclaimer that I am writing this from the perspective of a warbird user that's moderately tricked out.

 

The main problem right now is with the Terriers who are grossly overpowered, as evident by everyone's rush to getting one. The main complaint that comes up in-game is the Terrier's ability to spam Plasma Cannon without regard for energy, due to the terrier's high recharge. Going up against a terrier with Plasma I usually find myself attempting to dodge the wide spread of the bullets too much to inflict enough damage to overcome the Terrier's high recharge - and the terr's high maneuverability isn't helping the situation out either. In another example I've unleashed my entire energy shooting at a terrier not only not killing it, but also leaving it enough energy to fire a couple Plasma Cannon shots back at me. That Terrier admittedly had ZPM, but the point of high-end equipment is to give an advantage, not invincibility.

 

Solutions brought up were raising the energy drain on the plasma cannon, though personally I think that would hurt other ships who use it more than it would help the situation. Another idea was to remove the multi fire from plasma cannons (I was amazed to find out a mid-range l3 gun had multi in the first place), that would limit the spam-spread for terrs, and also make it easier to counter terriers.

Regardless, I feel that tricked out terriers are a bit too maneuverable for a 'big ship'. It maneuvers as well as a warbird in all field other than top speed.

 

Another issue was new players' difficulties with ammo. Would it be possible perhaps to turn the pea shooter into an ammo-free gun?

In the same field of money issues, there's also a problem with money gain when there aren't many players around. In numerous situations newer players give older players 0$ for kills. Now while this helps get rid of trade-killing when there aren't many people around, and eliminates newbie-killing, it also created a situation where older players simply will not play. The new players find no-one to play against (since they are a waste to fight), and also become a nuisance when playing since one needs to avoid them when fighting someone else.

 

 

In other news - nobody is playing a weasel. Weasels got nerfed too much in the update. I can't really put my finger on what the problem is because I did not play one, and hardly saw anyone else playing one that could give insight into what the problem is. The MAIN issue with variety right now though is the fact that terriers are the "be-all" ship. Not getting a terrier right now is very simply a bad idea.

 

 

I'd like to end this with a bit of a brown-nosing; I'm actually pretty happy with the update. I think it addressed some important issues that were up pre-reset, and introduced some novel ideas. After I got rid of the whole "Noooo I lost my pretty ship" feeling and gotten used to the new ammo system, I was rather glad of the change, and I actually feel some respect towards the devs for having the cohonas to take a popular zone with a working system and trying something new with it.

[Manivo]

Oh right.

Something I forgot regarding the "make 0$ for killing people" issue.

 

Could a minimum kill reward be implemented - say 15$ - in order to make those situations playable?

[Rareitanium]

not saying anything bad but, possibly using bullet points or just a simple - and then a brief but descriptive explanation of what you want to say would help those who dont really like or are not in the mood to read the whole thing.

 

 

just saying o_o

[Manivo]

I broke it down into paragraphs.

[Dr Brain]

Another issue was new players' difficulties with ammo. Would it be possible perhaps to turn the pea shooter into an ammo-free gun?

 

Arnk and I thought about this, but we really wanted to get new players into the swing of things as quickly as possible. We've got ammoless guns on the to-do list, but pea shooter isn't one of them.

 

In the same field of money issues, there's also a problem with money gain when there aren't many players around. In numerous situations newer players give older players 0$ for kills. Now while this helps get rid of trade-killing when there aren't many people around, and eliminates newbie-killing, it also created a situation where older players simply will not play. The new players find no-one to play against (since they are a waste to fight), and also become a nuisance when playing since one needs to avoid them when fighting someone else.

 

Unfortunately, even a $20 reward really isn't enough to bring most good players out of spec. There may be a way to improve the formula, but there's only so much we can do.

[Syrith]

Terriers are less maneuverable in the rotation sense too, since it needs nuclear booster to achieve a comparable amount of speed/thrust to the warbird.

 

The javelin's speed/thrust should be brought to the warbird's level.

[Yich]

The javelin should be as fast speed & thrust wise as warbird.

It already requires more skill as it is.

[Sharpflame]

I'd like to see Terriers get a minor recharge nerf. None of its other stats seem too powerful. The Terrier currently has almost all high stats, except for rotation, which isn't much of an impact if it's low or high.

[»Ceiu]

It's going to be a bit before any nerfs happen, simply because we/I want time to really evaluate a ship's potential. With this zone, balancing could be as simple as removing or allowing items on a ship. Also, since we can have different items, it's hard to say if the balancing is simply that some player has a weak setup where other players have stronger setups.

 

In any event, we're going to take some time before we go hacking away at a ship for the sake of balancing it. It won't do any good to nerf stuff only to make something else broken in the process.

[Matrim Cauthon]

terrs arent all that special, wzls almost have the same recharge and has more nrg the only reason people use terr instead of wzl is because of a couple reasons:

1. terrs get plasma cannon which has an absurd low nrg cost for its lvl (its a l3 gun that uses 3 more nrg/shot than pulse...) which helps alot in center since base games rarely start

2. wzls have single barrel guns which limits the aim and it cant use many of the high lvl guns since it is a bomber, this limits the wzl role to more of a basing one since no one can buy any good bombs like tacnuke for it yet.

[Manivo]

terrs arent all that special, wzls almost have the same recharge and has more nrg the only reason people use terr instead of wzl is because of a couple reasons:

1. terrs get plasma cannon which has an absurd low nrg cost for its lvl (its a l3 gun that uses 3 more nrg/shot than pulse...) which helps alot in center since base games rarely start

2. wzls have single barrel guns which limits the aim and it cant use many of the high lvl guns since it is a bomber, this limits the wzl role to more of a basing one since no one can buy any good bombs like tacnuke for it yet.

 

Actually terriers have a larger recharge than weasels, larger speed and thrust. Weasel has marginally better energy and higher bomb speed.

[Syrith]

1. terrs get plasma cannon which has an absurd low nrg cost for its lvl (its a l3 gun that uses 3 more nrg/shot than pulse...) which helps alot in center since base games rarely start

 

actually mat, plasma cannon nrg usage is 25x3 (75nrg) while pulse is 22x2 (44 nrg). The energy usages are multiplied by the gun level.

[»Ceiu]

Not quite. Theres two values for this stuff: BulletEnergy and BulletEnergyUpgrade. Level 1 is BulletEnergy. Level 2 is BulletEnergy + BulletEnergyUpgrade. Level 3 is BulletEnergy + 2*BulletEnergyUpgrade.

 

Edit: Nevermind. That's how it works for bombs, not guns. Syrith has the correct bullet energy formula.

[tiss61]

It's going to be a bit before any nerfs happen, simply because we/I want time to really evaluate a ship's potential. With this zone, balancing could be as simple as removing or allowing items on a ship. Also, since we can have different items, it's hard to say if the balancing is simply that some player has a weak setup where other players have stronger setups.

 

In any event, we're going to take some time before we go hacking away at a ship for the sake of balancing it. It won't do any good to nerf stuff only to make something else broken in the process.

i totally agree i think no one should even THINK about nerfing so soon with this new system PLUS being so early from last reset. maybe start the nerfing posts when everyone have at least 2 maxed out ships. so people can evaluate better

[Hiro]

I think that the following changes should be made:

1) Terrier's recharge should be reduced

2) Terrier's Maneuverability should be reduced-For all you people saying the rotation sucks, you can buy nuclear booster and inertial damper, and its the same as a warbird

3) Javelin's speed, thrust, and recharge should be increased to match the warbird-The javelin takes more skill than the warbird even before the nerf. With the nerf, warbirds are too overpowered and javelins are underpowered.

4) Shark should get a special item with reps and bursts every spawn. The shark is now way too weak. They added emp as an excuse to nerf shark this much, with such bad gunspeed, bombspeed, and the inability to use it's items Is completely contradictory to the description.

5) A new ammo system should be introduced. I think that ammo should not be used in this way. Ammo should be used to keep the energy consumption constant. For instance, pulse laser's current energy usage is 22 energy per shot. I think that with ammo, the usage should be 44 energy per shot, and after all ammo is used up, it could be 55 ammo per shot, 66 ammo per shot.. etc. Right now i feel very annoyed at being forced to buy ammo to shoot bombs and guns, and when you run out of ammo in the middle of the battle, you are dead.

6) Flash drive needs to be changed. Nobody is going to buy it, for it is useless in center. It is basically a powered up retro rocket, While retro is much better, without afterburner use.

7) Basing needs to be changed. See my topic Basing, Needs to change for more details.

 

Main problems are the warbird and the terrier. Both are overpowered compared to their counterparts, the javelin and weasel, respectively. I feel we should Make the recharge and speed greater in javelins and weasels than in warbirds and terriers. Javelins are ships that need a lot of aim, and it just seems fair that the ship that needs more skill (in no offense to the warbird players out there) Should also have the better benefits. The ships that are easier to use should not be the most powerful ships in the zone. Take these suggestions into consideration and Hopefully, some will help make hyperspace a better zone to play in.

 

P.S. Not all of these ideas were mine. I thank Arry, Yich, and Manivo for their ideas in the matter. I basically just summed it all up.

[Syrith]

Not quite. Theres two values for this stuff: BulletEnergy and BulletEnergyUpgrade. Level 1 is BulletEnergy. Level 2 is BulletEnergy + BulletEnergyUpgrade. Level 3 is BulletEnergy + 2*BulletEnergyUpgrade.

 

Edit: Nevermind. That's how it works for bombs, not guns. Syrith has the correct bullet energy formula.

 

I think you were thinking of bullet damage formula (base bullet dmg + bulletup dmg * (gunlevel -1))

 

keep the energy consumption constant. For instance, pulse laser's current energy usage is 22 energy per shot.

 

once again... look at the bullet nrg forumula... pulse laser's current nrg usage is 22 * 2 = 44

[Suicide_Run]

Dont think terr's movement is a big problem. People might just have alot of items that boosts terr's movement. Terr doesnt need that much nerfing, just abit here and abit there would be enough. Dont want the same thing happening before where ship gets whacked with nerf stick too much.

 

Shark is a ship for the elite cause if your not elite, ur not gonna be able to use it properly =p

Think its good enough right now, I just dont have the money to test it out yet lol.

[Manivo]

A terrier with inertial + Meneuvering + Omega is as agile as a warbird with intertial, maneuvering, and Icefire (albeit not as fast). Considering the terrier is a big ship which according to Cerium should, by design, handle worse than the smaller ships - I do believe a nerfing is in order.

 

Regarding sharks - I've seen two people (who you could consider "elite") fly them and both of them disliked them a lot (one of them even sold it off).