Holidays

[ThunderJam]

Thought this seemed appropriate considering the time of year, these are just some personal thoughts that have bugged me over the past several holiday seasons. Two things to establish first off:

 

1) Everyone knows that religious holidays have been secularized. Santa Claus has nothing to realy do with the meaning of Christimas (birth of Christ). Neither do red or green. These are christian topics, but it applies to other religions too, im sure.

 

2) To be fair and equal to everyone, my public school system gives all jewish holidays off school. (as long as its not a night-only holiday, like chanukah is from sundown to sunrise, and therefore doesnt interfere with school time). Not only does the entire school get off for the 10% of jews in our school, but teachers are not allowed to assign homework if the only time i can be done is over the jewish holiday. So if we have wednesday off, they can't assign something tuesday, thats due thursday. On our morning announcements we have informative lil speeches abotu chinese new year and chanukah giving a brief description of what the holiday is about. So as per political correctness, the system somewhat is trying to give religious equality, or so they say.

 

Now heres where im bugged. My sister, in middle school, has a friend who wasn't allowed to sell candy canes or green and red hershey kisses in a fundraiser because they were deemed too religious. What in the world does green and red have to do with xmas? Absolutely nothing. I actually have jewish teachers that give out the lil money chocolate things to their students on jewish events. My sister herself had her santa hat taken away that she wore to school one day. How is wearing a Santa hat any different than wearing a (how do i spell this...) yamakah, the jewish skull cap thing. That's totally religious. Winter break is called "WINTER BREAK" instead of "CHRISTMAS break" as it once was refferred to as. So we can get every Jewish holiday off, but you can't even call the break the week of christmas after our holiday? For end of year AP exams, our superintendent of the county schools confirmed having AP exams at a local synagogue when we needed more places to test, but prevented a school from having their graduation at a evangelical church that could seat 5,000 people. Obviously these are all Christian things, but im sure there are similar things for other cases. Kwanzaa gets shafted, christmas gets shafted, jewish holidays here however, get promoted. Anyone thats my lil rant for the day

[Dav]

you will find that much of the Christian celebration was stolen from the pagen rituals that just so happened to be at the same time so to call it Christian is mostly incorrect.

 

What we are seeing here is political correctness gone to far. For some reason that defies all logic just not participating isn't enough now, peopl;e get offended because they do celebrate the festival and play the minority card.

[rootbear75]

i want to let you know that Chanukkah is not from sundown to sunrise... its from sundown to the next day's sundown....

(basically shift the day back 6 or so hours)

 

afaik, all jewish holidays are from sundown to sundown

[SeVeR]

Dav mentioned the stealing of Pagan festivals. I'd like to add that "the Christmas celebration was created by the early Church in order to entice pagan Romans to convert to Christianity without losing their own winter celebrations" (wiki). Christmas was originally a celebration for the Pagan God Mithras who was born on the 25th of December to a virgin mother.

[Falcoknight]

Io Saturnalia!

[ThunderJam]

I'm not even gonna get into the origins of Christmas...

 

But seriously, in elementary schools they give out dreidels as a part of jewish awareness on chanukah. But someone can't sell red and green hershey kisses... for a non-christian fundraiser?

[whal]

aye a mother actualy pulled her kid out of school because it was too christmasy, (she was jewish) (the kid was .. kindergarten?)

 

this is oh yes such a good message to teach or kids, if we cant have it our way, quit. And isnt that so true today..

 

btw, sean taylor is a !@#$%^&*.

[Maurauth]

I actually have jewish teachers that give out the lil money chocolate things to their students on jewish events.

 

Their jewgolds? OMG.

[Falcoknight]

When I was in elementary school, they gave pretty equal exposure to both Chanukah and Christmas. That changed when I went to middle school and witnessed how much political correctness has !@#$%^&*ed everything up. There was nothing like what you guys describe, where they focused on one minority religious holiday and ignored the rest, they just acted as if holidays didn't exist. One teacher brought in Christmas tree pins and was not allowed to give them out to kids. The only way teachers were allowed to give candy or treats before the big break from school was if they clearly had no affiliation to any holiday (Basically they could give out tootsie pops, but even !@#$%^&* like red and green m&ms was a no-no)

Christmas trees were called Holiday trees, Christmas break became Holiday break (Which I didn't mind, we have a substantial Muslim population in our city and a fair number of Jews, so Christmas was certainly not the only holiday being celebrated in our city) and besides that everything was ignored or not spoken about.

 

In high school it went even farther than that. I actually laughed the first time a teacher bumbled around trying to basically say "happy holidays."

You see, at our school it is no longer allowed for teachers to wish us happy holidays, because it may "offend the atheists who attend the school and do not celebrate any holidays."

So now teachers have to basically just say "Have a happy winter.", "Holiday" trees were further demoted to Winter trees, might as well just call them pine trees at this point, and Holiday break is now simply Winter Break.

 

Political Correctness is probably one of the most annoying things that exist today.

[ra$ta420]

It all comes from parents that !@#$%^&* cuz they dont want there child involded in somthing that they do not belive in,kids could care less.Holidays now days have zero to do with why they are important in history,just superficial !@#$%^&* .

 

ThunderJam where do you live? We never got off for jewish holidays

 

On a different note,we got out of school for M.L.K ( he had a dream)day but didnt get off for christopher columbus ( he stumbled on the new world) day . can some one tell me why this is?

[ThunderJam]

I'm about 25 mins outside of Washington DC in maryland.

 

MLK = pc again. gotta give the black man his fair share, even if it means shafting the man who discovered our continent. (Actually i agree with giving MLK day off, im just being grumpy)

 

anyways... PC = re!@#$%^&*ed.

[Cancer+]

No offense, but isn't Kwanzaa fake?

 

Personally, all this politically correct !@#$%^&* sickens me. If it has been called Christmas break for the past 100 years, who cares now. If it says "ONE NATION UNDER GOD", since the saying was started, keep it "ONE NATION UNDER GOD". Stop being babies about this !@#$%^&*.

[Hakaku]

Similarly to Thunderjam's #2, here in Ontario, the recent provincial elections debates were only focused on one issue (which is kind of sad). To briefly explain, in Ontario, there are two government-funded school systems : public, and catholic. The whole debate was focused on removing the catholic system, or not. It's not something that really changes anyone's lives to keep both systems, but they were complaining about the Charter of Rights, equality, how Ontario was the only province with this system, etc. etc.

However, to me removing the catholic system would be senseless. I attend a French catholic school board, which is basically the best school board compared to all the other school boards (in a study which was shown both on CBC and CTV, it put English public schools in last place, French catholic in first for things such as drop out rate, average, school attendance, etc.). I also don't understand why we should abolish something that has existed since the foundation of Ontario, and why all the catholic school systems which count thousands of students each, would be forced to become private. It's not like they're run by nuns who teach people "God and Jesus are the only ones", they're practically public asides the fact that they don't fear political correctness, even if there are quite a number of non-religious people, muslims, jews, etc.

Asides that, the debate ran this way: 1) abolish catholic funding, 2) keep the status quo, or 3) fund other school systems (whether religious or not). Which I think the last one is better; if we enjoy claiming ourselves to be a multicultural society, why not promote it? Why do we have to follow the american way and become a melting pot, which evidentally has never worked. - No need to answer this, the idea failed because people care about money over education.

 

But the gist of that applies elsewhere. Everything is becoming 'politically' corrected by removing everything, but why not promote everything instead. And like I said in another thread, I'd say Merry Christmas to anyone because that's what it is. If there were people to say Happy Hannukah to, I'd do the same.

[ThunderJam]

Actually dont remember where I know this quote from... but this is basically what it comes down to (for religious holidays at least)

 

something like "Freedom of religions is not Freedom FROM religion." It's freedom to choose whether or not you want to believe in a religion, doesn't mean you don't have to deal with other people who choose diff than you.

[AstroProdigy]

Funny thing here. On Christmas I watched shocked that they were showing m!@#$%^&* on 2 channels. They were literally just playing the mass not reporting on it. This was on channel 4 and 11 i believe so major channels here. I wasn't shocked at the m!@#$%^&* nor did I care that they were showing it. What I was shocked at was how much Christians like to !@#$%^&* about the censoring of their religion on Christmas. Should I !@#$%^&* about this being shown on TV? It'd be just as bad for me to do that as the way Christians do it all the time.

 

The point I'm trying to make here is that while it's annoying when atheists pull this crap it's just as annoying when Christians do exactly the same thing and even more annoying because they act like they're the sole victims of it. All atheists complaining that there is too much religion in America and all Christians complaining that there is too much political correctness in America equally deserve to be shot because all they're doing is polarizing America with 2 choices when there really is the third choice of people who don't care either way. If we only let people make up their own minds instead of forcing 2 extreme alternatives down their throats maybe we wouldn't have neo cons capable of taking over the country at the expense of everyone else.

Edited December 28, 2007 by AstroProdigy

[Aileron]

Actually, it would be worse. Showing a m!@#$%^&* on TV is an act of Free Press. Any move to prevent that from happening would be anti-free press and would be wrong. Ofcourse, if it were limited to mere complaining it would also be free speech.

 

Remember that there is a line between complaining and boycotting, both perfectly acceptable actions, and suing and censoring. The offense against the PC crowd is over being sued repeatedly, as if our judges either haven't read the Bill of Rights or just don't care.

 

As far as I'm concerned, courts are for crimes. If your neighbor steals your TV, then you should take him to court. Courts shouldn't be used in the event you don't like whats on your neighbor's TV.

 

Additionally, I for one have never been offended by "Happy Chanukah". In my opinion, if anyone is offended by persons of another religion practicing their religion, then those people are jerks, and that includes if its Christians celebrating Christm!@#$%^&*.

 

 

PS - I will be jerk in the case of Kwanza. It is an artificial holiday for African Americans who didn't want to celebrate the "white man's Christm!@#$%^&*". Come on - I thought we were supposed to integrate our society rather than split it apart. Those who celebrate Kwanza are just racist.)

 

PPS - Yes Sever, you had to include that, didn't you? Funny how you'll point out that early Christianity made many compromises with the pagans, and then you'll turn around and claim the Church doesn't compromise.

[ThunderJam]

Wat ail said.

 

Press are private enterprises, they aren't affiliated with the government, and should be able to air watever they want.

 

You don't have like a right, to not be subjected to religion. If religion exists your going to see it. And like ail said again, Ive never been offended by anyone saying happy chanukkah, so why is it a big !@#$%^&*ing deal if i do anything "christmasy." My school actually had the "menorah" (donno how u spell it, the candle that represent the limiting of oil in chanuka) as the background in our morning announcements for several days, but last day before christmas, the announcements were spent talking about how it is a tradition to give a fruitcake on christmas. What the heck is htat lol? Then they continued to joke that the ingredients of fruitcake are fruit, and cement, and that it has many purpose, such as a life preserver, but not meant to be eaten.

 

If they don't let someone wear a santa hat in school, they shouldn't let jews wear yamukahs either. Its that simple.

Edited December 29, 2007 by ThunderJam

[AstroProdigy]

So when Merry X-mas is used instead of Christmas to cater to the PC crowd you need to either stop getting angry about it or admit to the hypocrisy. After all press, and chain stores are private enterprises, they aren't affiliated with the government, and should be able to air whatever they want. I admit that PC people take things too far, but so do Christians in this regard so there's blame to go around.

[ThunderJam]

1) I dont mind merry xmas at all. In fact thats how i write it if im txt messaging.

 

2)

So when Merry X-mas is used instead of Christmas to cater to the PC crowd you need to either stop getting angry about it or admit to the hypocrisy

But I still don't understand your logic. How does that make sense? Basically we've all been speaking out against PC, your last post didn't make a point cuz ail and i pointed out that the press can't be monitored... and now you turn around and expect us to embrace something PC? What did you say that should make us reverse our stance on this? Last i checked this topic was talking against PC, I don't see what makes you think we need to embrace something PC or be hypocrites suddenly. Edited December 29, 2007 by ThunderJam

[Falcoknight]

If they don't let someone wear a santa hat in school, they shouldn't let jews wear yamukahs either. Its that simple.

 

Uh, yeah, no.

From what I gather, a Yamukah actually has some religious importance to a Jew, I don't believe Santa has anything to do with the religious meaning of Christmas. At least, last time I checked it was celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ, not celebrating an overweight fictional character delivering presents to children.

 

Though if the school does something like, say, allow the wearing of yamukahs but does not allow someone to wear a necklace with a cross on it, then I would completely agree with you.

 

The ironic thing is that while I pointed out before how my school takes the PC movement insanely seriously to the point where you can't say happy holidays if you are a teacher, you are allowed to wear a yamukah, or a headdress if you're a woman, or a necklace with a cross on it.

[ra$ta420]

Uh, yeah, no.

From what I gather, a Yamukah actually has some religious importance to a Jew, I don't believe Santa has anything to do with the religious meaning of Christmas. At least, last time I checked it was celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ, not celebrating an overweight fictional character delivering presents to children.

 

^

 

some blacks tried to pull that at my school ..said they could wear that what ever the !@#$%^&* rag on there head ...cuz Muslims had there heads covered

[AstroProdigy]

But I still don't understand your logic. How does that make sense? Basically we've all been speaking out against PC' date=' your last post didn't make a point cuz ail and i pointed out that the press can't be monitored... and now you turn around and expect us to embrace something PC? What did you say that should make us reverse our stance on this? Last i checked this topic was talking against PC, I don't see what makes you think we need to embrace something PC or be hypocrites suddenly.[/quote']

 

You don't need t embrace it. You just need to accept it as non Christians have had to accept Christian holidays in the US for hundreds of years. By Merry X-mas I don't mean as a shorthand typing of Christmas. I mean as a secularized version of Christmas as Happy Holidays is. My point is that while you should not accept movements to deChristianize things forcefully you should also not accept movements to desecularize things. By that I mean that if you support a boycott of stores that use "Happy Holidays" or some other secular message instead of "Merry Christmas" then you really have no business criticizing political correctness. I'm not saying you do this. I'm just speaking in general for Christians. Also, this topic doesn't need to just have people who are against political correctness as it is a debate. Personally I wholeheartedly agree with PC, but I just think it can go too far once in a while.

[SeVeR]

Firstly, we should never change our culture to accommodate someone elses. Immigrants and non-Christians have chosen to live in this culture, and as a result they should expect to see us celebrating Christmas (and calling it Christmas) once a year. If they don't like that, they can kindly sit back and not participate. Indeed, they should be given leave of school to attend their own kind of celebrations if they wish too.

 

I don't see any problems, other than the people who get offended. They are obviously very insecure if they are threatened by celebrations that aren't relevent to them. Either they feel that society is trying to convert them to Christianity, or they are bitter that everyone else is celebrating something that they are not. Either way they are incredibly insecure.

 

Whenever i see Christian symbolism at Christmas i don't like it either, but that's because i see is as a symbol of ignorance. It's hard to be threatened by it... rather i'm disapointed. Then again, not all symbolism at Christmas is Christian, so i'm quite happy to enjoy it.

[ThunderJam]

I don't believe Santa has anything to do with the religious meaning of Christmas. At least, last time I checked it was celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ, not celebrating an overweight fictional character delivering presents to children.

 

Then again, not all symbolism at Christmas is Christian, so i'm quite happy to enjoy it.

Exactly... The santa hat is NOT religious, thats why im saying its stupid of them to ban people from wearing it (under the pretense of freedom of religion/separation of church and state). Cuz a friggin santa has nothing to do with the religion, isn't imposing on anyway, whereas a yamukah is completely religious.

 

By all means tho I think people should be able to wear yamakuh's in school. Im just saying if they can, people should be able to wear a santa hat too.

[WongKonPow]

What I would like to say about this is why we can't just embrace each other's holiday. If someone says 'merry christmas' to you, why can't someone just say 'happy Hanukkah' back? Instead of taking offense and having a tantrum. We are too easily offended these days, because we are constantly looking to other people's faults. Even if you don't believe in Christmas, what is so !@#$%^&* wrong with telling someone who does believe in it, to have a merry time of what they believe in.