A new experience/item system

[»Ceiu]

Unlike last time, this change isn't so drastic. However, I think it could make the zone a lot more diverse and overall, more gooder. This system will replacing the existing experience system as well as changing how items are purchased. Items themselves will largely remain unchanged.

 

Those of you who've played Final Fantasy Tactics will see where a majority of this is coming from. Qan's work in Trench Wars also has some influence on the latter part of this. If anyone else has any suggestions or other systems they've seen that have worked well, I'm willing to accept input to see if I can make improvements anywhere.

 

That said, here we go...

 

1: Leveling--

Players will have two different levels: Pilot level and ship level. These levels will determine
what items, ships and enhancements are available to them.

Pilot levels will range from 1 to 50, each level requiring 1000 experience. Players will be
able to purchase pilot enhancements for each level earned (Enhancements will be covered later).

Ship levels will range from 1 to 10, each level requring 500 experience points. Players will be
able to purchase more items as their ship level increases (Item trees will be covered later).

Experience will be earned in the same way, but the formulas will differ from their current
formulas. For standard kills, it will be earned as follows:

	Exp = Max((5 + (TLv - CLv) - CKP^2), 1) * EpM
	
	CLv = Player's current level
	TLv = Target's current level
	CKP = Consecutive Kill Penalty
	EpM = Experience Modifier
	
This allows players to quickly earn experience points for killing players at much higher
levels, but earn next to nothing for players below them. For instance, if a level 1 player
were to kill a level 20 player...

	Exp = Max((5 + (20 - 1) - 0), 1)	-> Exp = 24
	
They would earn 24 experience, !@#$%^&*uming they had no experience modifiers. However, if that
level 20 player killed the level 1 player...

	Exp = Max((5 + (1 - 20) - 0), 1)	-> Exp = 1
	
They would earn 1 experience point.

Since this system lends itself to helping newbies catch up quickly, there is also a mechanism
built in to prevent trade killing. The Consecutive Kill Penalty (CKP) works as follows:

	if(Killed player is within last three players killed)
		CKP = CKP + 1
	Else
		CKP = 0
		
That means: for consecutive kill on the same player, you'll earn less experience. As the number
of consecutive kills increases, the penalty gets considerably steeper. For instance, if a
level 1 player is getting free kills from a level 20 player...

	First kill:
		Exp = Max((5 + (20 - 1) - 0), 1)	-> Exp = 24
	
	Second Kill:
		Exp = Max((5 + (20 - 1) - 1), 1)	-> Exp = 23
		
	Third Kill:
		Exp = Max((5 + (20 - 1) - 4), 1)	-> Exp = 20
	
	Fourth Kill:
		Exp = Max((5 + (20 - 1) - 9), 1)	-> Exp = 15
		
	Fifth Kill:		
		Exp = Max((5 + (20 - 1) - 16), 1)	-> Exp = 8

	Sixth Kill:
		Exp = Max((5 + (20 - 1) - 25), 1)  ->  Exp = 1


After five kills, the player is no longer receiving experience for killing them. Naturally, 
there are ways around this; however, moderators will continue to play a role in monitoring
trade killing.





2: Item Availablity--

Items will be purchased much in the same way as they are now. However, their availability
will be drasticly different. Rather than looking at the number of experience points you've
earned, items will become available as your ship level increases. Further, each ship will
have different item list, meaning some items will become available at different tiers or not
at all. In addition to all of this, unavailable items will not be listed.

For example, the item list for a Warbird may look like this:

Tier 1:
	Ion Drive
	Fusion Reactor
	Flechette Gun
	Pulse Laser
	
Tier 2:
	Plasma Gun
	Maneuvering Fins
	Slipstream
	
Tier 3:
	Falcon Missile
	Shrap Booster
	Overthruster


...where a Javelin's list may look like:


Tier 1:
	Ion Drive
	Fusion Reactor
	Harpy Missile
	Falcon Missile

Tier 2:
	HE Missile
	Manuvering Fins
	Shock Matrix
	
Tier 3:
	Pulse Laser
	Shrap Booster
	Retro Rockets
	
	
This will naturally force ships into various roles until they reach the 10th tier (where
virtually every item is unlocked).





3: Pilot Enhancements--

In addition to purchasing items to create ships, players will be able to purchase pilot
enhancements at each pilot level-up. These enhancements are permanent (cannot be sold) and will
work in every ship the player uses.

A few of the enhancements catagories will be: improved item capacity, improved mobility, weapon
proficiencies and so on.

Although higher levels naturally means more enhancements, no player will be able to obtain them
all. There will be atleast 75 enhancements total, depending on the number of catagories vs
one-time improvements.

 

 

Post your opinions here, and try to be civil about it.

[nolan123]

sounds preety cool cerium but it will be after the next reset right??

[Masaru]

I support this system.

[BlueWyvern]

Doesn't seem like much of a change, more of a toss around of all the current items exp requirements. I was thinking you'd do a more job/role orientated experience tree. -shrug-

[»Ceiu]

It's a step toward such a thing. Right now there's nothing in place to even support it. If this gets put into place, it's trivial to add items and such only available for each ship.

[11___________]

Very interesting. So...you need more than one account to get all the advancements? or is it more than one ship? waffles?

[»Ceiu]

It means you couldn't have every enhancement at the same time. It's simply not possible (number of enhancements > levels). However, I know a group of smart!@#$%^&*es who would create two accounts so they could say "omg I have every enhancement lulz!!", so I threw that clause in there.

[Dr Brain]

The problem with all of your suggested system changes is that you can't support the current system in parallel with the new system.

[Suicide_Run]

Cerium, is the suggestions your making in this thread similar to the Distension event in tw? Some ideas sounds familiar and it seems pretty good but i suppose it wont happen cause of wat brain said

[»Ceiu]

@Suicide_Run:

The enhancements idea is somewhat inspired by Distension (hence the shout to Qan up above), but most of this comes from my recent read of the FFT battle mechanics guide. It's surprising how much of it could be applied to HS. !@#$%^&*, the exp formula itself is straight from the BMG save for the squaring of CKP. As an aside, I don't play TW or any of it's subarenas. My knowledge of Distension comes solely from discussions with Qan and the 30 minute beta I participated in. He's done an amazing job on the bot that runs it and if you can tolerate one-hit-kill gameplay, I highly recommend people to should check it out sometime.

 

Regarding what Brain said: That argument could be used to shoot down any idea. Technically speaking, most everything on your todo list can't support the current system -- that's why we're making and upgrading modules, right? Sure, we could do minor additions (ie: new items), but to me that's both boring and doesn't really "fix" any of the problems these "major" changes of mine address -- stagnation of the zone once players reach the higher levels. Further, this change isn't really that drastic. We'd need to modify the buy module a bit to change it's output based on the ship of choice and change what it looks at for experience requirements. Really, we just change the exp requirement to be (exp / 1000 > req exp / 1000) and modify the output a bit. There would be a bit more work in the kills module and then the addition of enhancements and such, but in comparison to my last item revamping it's considerably minor. And, should the idea bomb horribly, we've always got the old code to fall back to.

 

And finally, to anyone who cares (warning: rant ahead): Development to me gets boring real quick when all I'm doing is patching up a few things here and there or making tiny additions to what is largely someone else's work. Not only do I have very little say when it comes to the creativity of a (sub-)project, but most people won't even see the change. Every time I submit one of these ideas, it most likely means I'm willing to put forth the effort to put it into place. But it really burns me out quickly to be rejected and demoted back to tinkering with tiny fix-me style projects. It's not like I plan on running off every time I get told "no", but it certainly makes the other stuff seem a tad less inviting.

[Sention]

I like the system your proposing and I would definitely like to give it a shot but I have a few comments.

 

First, the CKP sounds good but there would have to be a timer to it or else once you kill that high level player 5 times he would start giving 1 exp like any lower level player. A lot of times you will kill a player consecutively without trying to trade kill, it just happens. If the CKP counter can be interrupted by killing another player it would be nice, but then thats just another technique people would use when trade killing to get around the penalty.

 

I like the item availability because it adds some diversity to the setups we normally see but I dont like being forced into a role I dont want to be in due to limited item availability and I also dont like the idea of having to be buying/selling equip over and over as you advance through the tiers. I guess it gives newer players something to work towards though rather then just money hoarding which is always good.

 

The pilot enhancements sounds very interesting but at the same time im worried it could overpower the more active/skilled players. I guess I cant really comment on it yet as you didnt go into much detail.

 

All in all it sounds very interesting and fun if done properly and I would love to try it considering the current exp/buy system is a bit dull.

[»Ceiu]

First, the CKP sounds good but there would have to be a timer to it or else once you kill that high level player 5 times he would start giving 1 exp like any lower level player. A lot of times you will kill a player consecutively without trying to trade kill, it just happens. If the CKP counter can be interrupted by killing another player it would be nice, but then thats just another technique people would use when trade killing to get around the penalty.

 

The way the CKP counter works is something like this:

 

Initially, each player's CKP is set to 0 and their list of players killed is empty. Lets say they kill:

Cerium, CKP = 0

Sention, CKP = 0

Cerium, CKP = 1 (Cerium was within last 3 kills)

Sention, CKP = 2 (Sention was within last 3 kills)

Dr Brain, CKP = 0 (Dr Brain is NOT within last 3, CKP resets)

 

Originally I was planning on checking only "last killed", but it's fairly easy to double client or get two friends to trade kill with you. With checking the last three, even in the event it does happen the penalty will be nil (-1 when CKP = 1). Plus, Brain already has the arena setup to negate bonuses when there is less than 5 people active so I chose to follow suit.

 

 

I like the item availability because it adds some diversity to the setups we normally see but I dont like being forced into a role I dont want to be in due to limited item availability and I also dont like the idea of having to be buying/selling equip over and over as you advance through the tiers. I guess it gives newer players something to work towards though rather then just money hoarding which is always good.

 

When you're just starting out, it's probably a good thing to have a role clearly defined for your ship. Vets may not like it, but once they get to the higher levels (tier 7-10) they'll have access to virtually every item for that ship anyway. Considering that requires 3k experience, it's more or less the same system we have now, just that you have to do it for each ship. Plus, this would give the opportunity to have a unique items for each ship.

 

As far as having to buy/sell repeatedly... Unless earnings or item prices changed, I don't see that as being a problem until you've got several ships and an abundance of cash. At that point, I'd much rather see people forced into such a situation as it means goldmine != superiority.

 

The pilot enhancements sounds very interesting but at the same time im worried it could overpower the more active/skilled players. I guess I cant really comment on it yet as you didnt go into much detail.

 

All in all it sounds very interesting and fun if done properly and I would love to try it considering the current exp/buy system is a bit dull.

 

The enhancements wouldn't be drastic. At the highest levels they'd be noticeable, but nothing game breaking. For instance, I was considering 10 possible upgrades for thrust. If you had all 10, it would basically be like having a permanent +1 or +1.5 to thrust. My goals would be to try to focus on other fun stuff that doesn't already exist: reduced drain on utilities, slightly increased firing speed or reduced firing cost, antiwarp jamming, and so on. I was thinking of +10 to 15 percent increases at the highest levels -- again, enough to make a difference but not enough to break the game.

[*rc 1223*]

I dont like it. I like hs current system

[tiss61]

i agree with rc, this system sounds so confusing u lost me at the 6th sentence

[Shia' Tan]

it looks good to me cerium, i think it would be fun to try out. obviosly, some people will complain, but if its implimented and people get a chance to try it out then i think they will find it works just fine.

[Sention]

i agree with rc, this system sounds so confusing u lost me at the 6th sentence

 

Thats because you probably didnt take the time to read through it. It looks like a lot to take in at first but its very simple if you actually read it.

[tiss61]

ok i read thourgh it and understanded it. but i still dont like it. sounds too complicated, even more complicated than it is now!

[»D1st0rt]

I like how it sounds, but I am worried about the ability of our players to comprehend it.

[Dr Brain]

Regarding what Brain said: That argument could be used to shoot down any idea. Technically speaking, most everything on your todo list can't support the current system -- that's why we're making and upgrading modules, right? Sure, we could do minor additions (ie: new items), but to me that's both boring and doesn't really "fix" any of the problems these "major" changes of mine address -- stagnation of the zone once players reach the higher levels. Further, this change isn't really that drastic. We'd need to modify the buy module a bit to change it's output based on the ship of choice and change what it looks at for experience requirements. Really, we just change the exp requirement to be (exp / 1000 > req exp / 1000) and modify the output a bit. There would be a bit more work in the kills module and then the addition of enhancements and such, but in comparison to my last item revamping it's considerably minor. And, should the idea bomb horribly, we've always got the old code to fall back to.

 

I just checked the to-do list, and there's nothing on there that couldn't support the current system in a subarena. What you're talking about is a complete change of the entire system with no going back.

 

If you can find a logical superset of both, I might be willing to support the changes. Even now, we can support all the items that were in the old area bot era with the minor exception of ?buy message , which could be emulated in a heartbeat.

[»Ceiu]

@D1:

If TW players can understand Distension enough to play that, I think HS players can handle this (ok, maybe not RC and his buddy up there; but they can't handle HS as it is anyway).

 

 

 

@Brain:

If you think about it, my proposal IS a superset of the current pub. The only difference is labeling and availability, really. If we went ahead and programmed all the changes necessary for this system but didn't actually change how pub worked, you'd have:

 

- Enhancements disabled or ridiculously expensive

- Minor changes to experience requirements on items or experience required for each tier and number of tiers

- Most item tiers being identical or very similar

 

Really, all this does is adds 8 new values for players (ship exp) and puts new labels on existing values (level = exp /1000). I imagine we could hack it together in short order; but to really do this idea nicely and support future additions or changes with little headache, it would be a bit more work. The tiering system already exists to an extent (exp + ship requirements), it's just not as structured as what I'm proposing. The only change I can think of that breaks things is the idea of ship-specific experience. However, according to the mmorpg formula for calculating fun: more grinding = more gooder.

[Shia' Tan]

I like that:

 

more grinding = more gooder

 

And I agree again with cer. Most of the pop could handle this EZ. There's just the few that struggle even now. For those, there is no hope

[aquarius]

If you can program it, load it in a subarena first. If you don't want to waste your time developing something that doesn't have a one-hundred percent chance of being used, use it yourself. I'm sure you will feel accomplished either way.

[»Ceiu]

I'm not going to bother programming it if it's not going to get used. That's the point of this type of post, to check public interest and further hash out ideas before a final draft is laid out.

[Aceflyer]

I'm not going to bother programming it if it's not going to get used. That's the point of this type of post, to check public interest and further hash out ideas before a final draft is laid out.

 

I dunno Cerium, while it may make things for skilled players funner, I think that system might be a tad complicated given HS' level of complexity relative to other zones already. We want (I think?) to make HS easier to get into (so we can get more players), not harder...

[Suicide_Run]

Well, its technically not all that complex. Its just since cer is making everything all numbers and stuff, if you have it in simple terms it would be easier.

 

What I see it is that its just splitting off the current exp system into 2 different ones. One for buying ships and ship upgrades and by lvling up. You open up more choices like currently. While lvling up the pilot level makes you buy power ups that affect all your ships.