Devastation is no longer fun for me.

[Pirateship]

LOL Synister i love your penguin Avatar. Anyway how come we have credits in the range of millions? Why dont we make credits in the range of thousands. And lower the cost on all the items to thousands. That way we can have less credits, yet still collect them, and still afford items.

 

I think thats what Synister meant right?

 

Also I have seen many players helping people by giving them 20 mill credits. Even mage+ has done that. I have done that also.

 

And has everyone forgotten that if you play a 2 hour game and have to leave? and nobody wants to win, you lose credits, and gain nothing for 2 hours of play time. How come no one addresses this issue? If you have to leave you have to leave, the tax wont force you to play longer. So the tax system is unfair to people who cant stay and win the jackpot.

Edited November 27, 2007 by Pirateship

[Synister]

First: lol ty

second: u just said everything i did in a short version

[XDOOM]

Pirateship.

 

You only lose credits if you have more then 75 million credtis.

So if you are playing a game, and were under when you started, odds are if you dont win jp you will be under when you leave.

 

So if everybody stays under 75 mil (there are less then 10 people over 75 million credits currently in this zone), then there is NO tax.

And if I raise it to a 125 mil limit .. then it effects like 5 people. Tm, T-man, mage, and 2 people that don't use their credits. My oh my ... this tax system is going to hurt everybody now isn't it? Like seriously, think before you guys talk ... we are taling about 10 people maximum where this credits limit would have an immediate effect ... and most of these players are already below the limit since the tax was implemented. Its just a way to keep the game fair and at a level where everybody has a chance to win and have fun.

 

YOU ONLY GET TAXED IF YOU HAVE MORE THEN 75 MILLION CREDITS. SINCE LESS THEN TEN PEOPLE HAVE THIS MANY CREDITS THE TAX HAS NO IMPACT ON THE MAJORITY OF PLAYERS.

[XDOOM]

I also want to point out the majority people that are complaining are the people that:

 

A) Don't play in the zone

Barely play in the zone

C) Don't use their credits, so why care?

 

So most players don't really seem to care about since, hey, guess what, it doesn't effect them since they never have more then 75 million credits anyways.

 

But still, I've already said, I'll raise the limit to 125,000,000 and reduce the tax to 5-10% ... so if you are barely over the 125,000,000 you lose from 6 to 12.5 million credits ... not a big deal, but more costly the higher you are.

 

Because most players use their credits, 95% of the population will never have to submit any credits to tax.

[Gibbit]

I agree with Xdoom for the tax.

 

and as for the goal battles thing, what stops ppl from still fighting in the goals its still like a little base... and what fun does beeing warped add to it?

[XDOOM]

I agree with Xdoom for the tax.

 

and as for the goal battles thing, what stops ppl from still fighting in the goals its still like a little base... and what fun does beeing warped add to it?

 

 

See the smart players agree with me

[JDS]

gibbit? smart?

[No_Remorse]

The tax system now is highly flawed. 15% is a pretty high percentage to lose every time you leave or change arenas. Exactly why I just afk'd in spec overnight. If there is a way to prevent the bot taxing you for going to subarenas, this would be fine. But as it stands, I'm not going to participate in any other events unless they are prized. On the other hand, if you change it to only a 5-10% tax for players with 125 million or greater, this would be slightly more fair. Considering yesterday I entered the zone with 126M and am currently at 68M because of participating in non-prized events.

 

Mods/Bot ops abusing the credit system is another thing. I personally don't use these methods nor encourage them. However, I'm pretty sure you can look at a bot log and see who is abusing what, no? And just warn accordingly.

 

Regarding the Halloween map... I too was disappointed that it didn't last very long. It definately could have been completed well before Halloween day, which is when I believe it was. However, I most likely would have submitted a holiday base or bases, considering how many bases I've made recently, but I'd like to see it up for more than 2 days. Fact is, I didn't even get a chance to play in the base I made.

 

Lowering the overall .buy costs and credit reward system would be a good idea. I don't see any problems with that.

 

I believe this was discussed before, probably in zone at one point or another, but I for one, believe that killing should reward more credits. Devastated had a great idea raising the kill rewards temporarily after a jackpot is won. Maybe until the jackpot reaches 10-25 million points.

 

One last thing. I give newbies credits all the time when they start wondering what .buy is and what it does. I even give the creds to players on the opposing team, who turn around and use those creds against me. So don't say nobody helps the newbies.

[XDOOM]

Tax is set up to 125 mil/10%

 

I am making a christmas map this weekend and plan to have it up the weekend after.

 

That gives everybody 2 weeks to make new bases that weren;t from last year, because I am going to just take from that map.

 

If somebody wishes to alter the tileset to make it more christmasy they are welcome to.

 

If the halloween map was finished a week before halloween we would have seen it a lot more ... Jds took too !@#$%^&* long so blame him.

Also, tm didn;t like the map and a bunch of other people complained about the goals and such, so that didn;t help the situation in terms of me leaving that version of the map up for a long period of time. I have to keep tm happy after all as he does all the work late at night.

[Hakaku]

That's ok XDOOM, no harm was intended. But just so everyone knows, I have been in Deva nearly every single day lately (to retaliate against #B ).

 

On a side note, since I enjoyed making last year's Christmas map, I for sure intend on making another base this year. Let me know if you ever need help with anything else (designing the tileset is hard though - but it's funny how my 1 safe tile from last year's, that was meant to look winterish, became a standard since )

[Pirateship]

Um You have no right to claim people don't play in the zone. Considering for the longest time you were the zone owner and you barely played and always sat in spec. And to tell the truth those were the good days. Because you never meddled with something that worked and was fun.

 

I never ASKED about people under 75 million credits. I said what about the people over 75 million credits who need to leave before winning a jackpot. THEY invest 2 hours of play and lose credits, because they cant stay long enough to win. You consider that fair? You think people will like that? You think because of this tax it will force people to play longer? You are forcing people to play the way you want them too, and before long you wont have anyone to play with. Before this tax system there was a lot of people over 75 million credits.

 

All you are doing with your posts is proving that Devastation is not based on a democracy. There is nothing I hate more than a fake. Stop claiming you are doing this to make everyone happy. Because More people disagree with the tax than agree. You are doing this because you WANT to do this. Plain and simple. Admit it so we can move on.

 

Sure the tax keeps everyone at 75 million credits, or later on 125 million credits. But in WHAT way is that FUN? Absolutely none at all. Sure we can still play and use credits, but you took away one of the funnest aspects of having credits in the first place. The COMPE!@#$%^&*ION of collecting them. And seeing how many you can get. THE TAX SYSTEM IS NOT A SOLUTION. It will cause you more problems than you can imagine.

 

A better solution would be doing what synister suggested. BUT you COMPLETELY IGNORED THAT. Because you dont care. You dont want to waste time. It is too much work. ETC. PLEASE TELL us whats so bad about the idea of making credits in the thousands instead of millions? Its solves your problem of too many credits, and it solves our problem of credits being fun. Then all you have to do is make buyable items worth thousands instead of millions, and change the way the jackpot rises.

 

ITS BAD ENOUGH PAYING TAXES IRL.

Edited November 28, 2007 by Pirateship

[»T-Man]

Eh just use credits, even though its now 125 mil at 10% tax.... Yeah I get taxed a lot but I dont really care, Its real easy to earn credits and always have plenty to use... it only takes me a couple hours of playing during a game and i earn well over 100-200 mil credits.

[XDOOM]

I addressed Synister's idea before he even posted it in the post above it.

 

Pirateship, it is on thing to complain about something you are informed about, its another to not read what I write and complain I didn't address it.

 

Here is what I said before:

 

--- Dividing and rounding would be very annoying programatically, but doable ... however there has always been opposition in reducing the number of points/credits you get to reduce it all to smaller more manageable numbers ... everyone likes big numbers

 

So, what I was getting to on this point was the fact that if I divided the credits to smaller values it a lot of work programatically.

AND there has always been opposition to this ... people like big numbers, as I have made requests to tm_master to change the overall player scores/jackpots/etc to more manageable numbers, but that has ALWAYS been not something anybody else wanted to do.

 

Pirateship, you tell me I meddle with things I shouldn't. But you are telling me to meddle with how the credits were given since SOS made the credit bot initially. What is the difference between me meddling with a tax that is being now imported a jackpot that can be used for event winniners, and me meddling with the ENTIRE CREDIT system on making it so you get thosands of creds instead of millions?

 

Look, new things don't always work perfectly to start ... so theres been a few hitches and complaints about the tax .. abeit, I am still going to say the biggest complainer has been you, and both synister and rootbear don't even play in deva (or maybe very very little), so their opinions are biases towards that they don't know the current state of the zone and the number of credits most players have.

 

You seem more in tune to call me a meddler then to give me a solution to some players having 400 million credits and others having 0. My biggest reason for this tax was to keep the playing field level and fun for everyone. I don't see how I ruined somebody's fun because they get taxed for having too much credits. yes, its a little annoying getting taxed if u just go to an event, but the bot only works in 1 arena, its not a zone-wide-thing like ASSS could be so there are obvious limitations.

 

 

I'm trying to improve the zone, and I read everybody's suggestions. Since i've started doing more things for the zone we have seen:

* A better map design

* A halloween map (even if it was on for a short time, without me there would have been NONE)

* A bot re-done with players statistics almost ready to be viewable on website

* Database re-done so statistics can actually BE displayed on website ... on the old db this would have never been possible due to firewall restrictions

* Key fixes in race/elim system so its easier for moderators

* A new event, juggernaught, with so far good reviews

* Bi-weekly base updates

* Back to monthly credit resets (SOS actually did this on every scorereset, so instead of the tax system, I can reset credits every 2 weeks, that doesn't make a difference for me)

* A way to keep credit values down to reasonable values ... (aka the tax system)

* Display current zone pop in chat

* Display jackpot on website

 

And I won't be around forever to do these kinds of updates, by christmas, I'll probably disspear for most of 4 months since i'll be back in school, so I was trying to help add new and excitings to the zone while I could.

 

Anywho, I took everyone's suggestions into consideratino, as a temporary move, i've uped the min credit limit to 125 Million and I've set the tax to a more resonable 10%. The tax from both this, and donating is added to a credit jackpot that can be used for a variety of proposed purposes.

 

So pirateship, what was your problem with the tax? You seem the be the ONLY person who actually plays in deva consistenly seriously opposed to it, even though you said yourself you don;t care about credits ... and you can still get as many credits as you want, you'll just get taxed 10%, so yes, it makes it a little harder to get 400 mil credits, but its still entirely possible. I've just created a deterent ... not a wall.

[XDOOM]

I wanted to make to replies clear from what you last said:

 

I said what about the people over 75 million credits who need to leave before winning a jackpot. THEY invest 2 hours of play and lose credits, because they cant stay long enough to win. You consider that fair? You think people will like that? You think because of this tax it will force people to play longer? You are forcing people to play the way you want them too, and before long you wont have anyone to play with. Before this tax system there was a lot of people over 75 million credits.

 

I wanted to make this clear, I told you less then 5% of the population had over 75 million credits to begin with so this didn;t effect 95% of people, plus you earn credits just by killing, so just killing people you could easily earn 15 million credits to offset the tax

 

Sure the tax keeps everyone at 75 million credits, or later on 125 million credits. But in WHAT way is that FUN? Absolutely none at all. Sure we can still play and use credits, but you took away one of the funnest aspects of having credits in the first place. The COMPE!@#$%^&*ION of collecting them. And seeing how many you can get. THE TAX SYSTEM IS NOT A SOLUTION. It will cause you more problems than you can imagine.

 

There can still be a compe!@#$%^&*ion ... the tax doesn't prevent you from goign ast 125 mil dude .. its just a deterrent ... so, you are at 125, you lose 10%, or 12.5 mil when you leave, you come back, win another 100 mil credits now you are at 212.5 million credits .. and guess WHAT YOU ARE STILL INCREASING.

I just made the compe!@#$%^&*ion harder.

[Pirateship]

Keep in mind the discussion me and Tm had the other day. AND understand that I still think lowering credit values to the thousands is a much better solution, one that is not a catalyst for future problems, like this tax system can be. As well I think the tax system still forces people to play a certain way. As far as if there is still compe!@#$%^&*ion to collect credits. I will give this credit thing a try, for a week. We will see if there can still be compe!@#$%^&*ion. Lets call this beta testing. However I doubt anyone will be able to collect credits like before. So far everyone has lost tons of credits instead.

 

 

Pirateship> tm i find it funny you dont have an opinion about the tax

FiEND> writing a paper

FiEND> what is the tax

Dematrion> haha

Pirateship> the tax makes it so you can never get over 75 million credits basically

tm_master> i do have an opinion about it, pirate

tm_master> i had 350 mil

FiEND> i have 116 mil

tm_master> and now i have..

Pirateship> and before we could have 500 million credits, etc

T-Man> over 125 Million.

tm_master> .credits

tm_master> 68.45 mil

Pirateship> so tm

Pirateship> go read my thread

Pirateship> and post

tm_master> I dislike posting on the forums

tm_master> mainly because I don't like that forum system

Pirateship> what forum system?

tm_master> ssforum

tm_master> not the entire form itself, just Deva's forum

Pirateship> it looks like every other forum, except i told devastation a long time ago to get their own forum

Pirateship> and you never listened

tm_master> well, i hear you

tm_master> i wanted and still want our own

Pirateship> and i dont see a problem

Pirateship> with putting credits in the thousands

Pirateship> instead of millions

Pirateship> it would solve xdoom problem of too many credits for the bot to handle

tm_master> agreed, as long as the prices were lowered to match..

Pirateship> and it would allow us to collect credits

Pirateship> collecting them adds compe!@#$%^&*ion, and compe!@#$%^&*ion is fun

tm_master> but you do realize monthly credit resets (minus a few we skipped) are and have been done

Dematrion> `lol

tm_master> ?

Pirateship> xdoom doesnt understand this

Pirateship> monthly credits resetting is good

Pirateship> nobody cares

Pirateship> about that

transverse> im a gangster.

Pirateship> that means we can start all over again

Pirateship> from scratch

Pirateship> every month

tm_master> right, i totally agree

tm_master> i mean, i understand why X tried it

tm_master> but it's not working as intended

Pirateship> yeah but he is stubborn, he just wants the idea, because he thought of it

tm_master> just screwing everyone over for something as simple as changing an arena

tm_master> Well he's XDOOM, what do you expect.

tm_master> I warned you.

Pirateship> well he should be smart enough to recognize a better idea

Pirateship> when he sees one

Devastation Award Voting As Begun! Check out www.devazone.net and vote for your favourites!

Pirateship> and synisters idea is the better one

Pirateship> and xdoom completely ignored it

Pirateship> didnt even say a word about it

transverse> maybe it isnt a better idea in his opinion

Pirateship> then he should have told us why

transverse> no matter what would happen, everyone would not be happy

Pirateship> you think xdoom is doing htis to make peopl ehappy?

Pirateship> you buy into his gay !@#$%^&* goerge w bush speachesPirateship> he is pulling a bush

transverse> I'm saying no matter what he does everyone is not going to be happy

Pirateship> pretending the war is about freedom, when its about oil

Pirateship> everyone was happy when he didnt do anything

Pirateship> for starters

Pirateship> now we have a controversy

FiEND> wtf we started talking about bots then ended with war

transverse> How do you know they wasnt happy? Maybe you just made them think they wasnt?

Pirateship> forcing people to play the way you want them too, is not a solution

Pirateship> its a catalyst for more problems

transverse> I just don't see why you have to stress your opinion. When obviously his opinion is the one that matters.

Pirateship> he is a zone owner and he doesnt even know the basics

Pirateship> about running a good zone

T-Man> Whos forcing, no one..... u dont have to use credits if you dont want to... you can if you want.. its all up to u

Pirateship> no because i could collect credits before

Pirateship> collecting them adds compe!@#$%^&*ion

Pirateship> now there is no compe!@#$%^&*ion with credits

Pirateship> and no fun

T-Man> riiight

Pirateship> before the tax, and after the tax we could always use credits to buy items

Pirateship> that fact never changed

transverse> what zone do you run?

Pirateship> eliminating an aspect of a zone that can be fun, wont help bring people here, there is just one less fun thing about deva now.

transverse> k so you completly ignored my question

transverse> if you do not own a zone, how do you know what is the basics?

T-Man> eliminating an aspect? not really, he didn't eliminate credits, you still can have plenty to use during games.

tm_master> Okay, I just want to say that I sympathize so much with your viewpoints, pirate.

Pirateship> your missing my point.

Pirateship> only tm is smart enough to understand

tm_master> I have had to deal with XDOOM in this capacity before

Pirateship> what i mean

tm_master> let me quote your post

transverse> I see your point, but I don't see why you have to say that XDOOM is bad at running a zone. When you do not run one.

tm_master> Considering for the longest time you were the zone owner and you barely played and always sat in spec. And to tell the truth those were the good days. Because you never meddled with something that worked and was fun.

tm_master> that was a quot

transverse> owning" a zone rather

tm_master> you have NO IDEA HOW RIGHT YOU ARE.

Pirateship> lol

tm_master> took those words right out of my mouth

tm_master> i mean, i would have posted it

Pirateship> yeah because he pulled this !@#$%^&* out his !@#$%^&*, that i never play and people who disagree with him never play

Pirateship> ....

Pirateship> so i got angry

tm_master> he meddles with things he has no business meddling

tm_master> that's the problem here.

tm_master> i mean, he owns the zone. But still, believe me, he has a THOROUGH HISTORY HERE of doing this

Pirateship> that doesnt matter, i would be fine if wanted a taz system, and then he realized it was a mistake, and found a better solution

Pirateship> but hes not doing that

Pirateship> he wants the tax system there, because it was his idea, and he wants it,

Pirateship> he doesnt care about anything else, im pretty sure of it

transverse> but who are you to tell him what is right and wrong?

FiEND> lol why r u complainin bout doom

tm_master> Pirate, I have warned him almost EVERY SINGLE TIME he was ever about to make a big mistake in running the zone

Pirateship> dude

tm_master> But did he ever listen to me once? I can't recall once

Pirateship> it players make the squad, not the captain

Pirateship> its the same with the zone

Pirateship> I am a player

Pirateship> he will have an empty zone if he doesnt respect the people in it

Pirateship> and their opinions

transverse> that does NOT mean everyone feels the same as you

FiEND> cont is dead im very sure small changes would affect this zone :/

tm_master> which is why i always said my job here was only ceremonial

tm_master> my co-owner/sysop status only a !@#$%^&*le

tm_master> he controls everything. He does what he wants, when he wants, how he wants.

tm_master> This is something as long as he's back you'll have to get used to

Pirateship> a large percent of subspace feels like i do , and when they come here and see a tax, they wont stay, because you eliminated an aspect of the game that was fun for them, which is competeing for credits.

tm_master> regardless of what his players say, and ESPECIALLY a staffer who has been loyal here since 2000 like me

tm_master> you'd think he'd listen to advice more

T-Man> no one will even notice the tax unless they actually play alot and earn 125 mil. which not many do.

Pirateship> tm did he learn from the mistakes?

Pirateship> or does he repeat them?

tm_master> It runs for me much deeper than any tax he's created

tm_master> But I'll just say this: The zone has had ALOT more drama since he returned

tm_master> Unneccessary drama, i think.

Pirateship> yeah well i was less of an activist before xdoom came back..

Pirateship> lol

transverse> pirate, i'm not saying i disagree with what you say. But you can't say the way he runs his zone is wrong.

tm_master> i have no problem with activists. You just have to go about it in the right way.

Pirateship> im more of an extremist..

[No_Remorse]

... it only takes me a couple hours of playing during a game and i earn well over 100-200 mil credits.

 

This is a lie. It takes almost 2 hours to milk the credits to 40 mill... On top of that you will MAYBE get 10mill in kill points. So it's not quite as easy as you make it out to be.

 

That log could have been shortened. I see how the tax is an annoyance, but believe me, he could have done a lot worse. He compromised by lowering the percentage and raising the minimum value of credits that it takes to be taxed. All this does is encourage players to use their credits, instead of stock-piling them just to be reset at the end of the month. The only flaw in the system is if you change arenas you end up losing out on credits if you are above the limit. It would be nice if we could figure out a way around this. Besides, if you were that worried about it, you can afk in the zone 24/7 and never lose a single credit(like T-Nub).

 

By the way, I sometimes get pissed when stuff changes, and I can't say that I don't. For instance, I was pissed my credits went from 126M to 68M because of participating in events. I believe if credits are going to be taxed for changing arenas to play in an event, then events should be prized, so at least you have a chance of getting some of your credits back.

 

Besides, XDOOM isn't obligated to update or change the zone(hopefully for the better) anyway. So I think we should just be happy with what we get and support or disagree, like adults, with constructive criticism. Keep up the good work, and T-Nub get those scores up on website ASAP.... Or else.....

[XDOOM]

NR - what I was thinking was to somehow add a timer, so you can only have yourself taxed once every 12 or 24 hrs ... so if you get taxed once, then for the next 12 hours you are free to enter/leave teh zone as much as you like.

 

That might make it reasonable, as you are right, losing credits for going to an event is stupid

 

Oh shoot, even better, I can make my bot do a ?find, and if it finds you in an arena from the zone ... dont tax.

 

YES! Thankss NR you got my brain ticking

 

See pirateship, this is how NR is different. instead of calling me a 'meddler' he provides constructive ideas and critism, you just blast and blast and blast away while others provide ideas.

[rootbear75]

Pirate: let me say this one sentence

 

XDOOM owns the zone.

 

 

END OF STORY

[XDOOM]

Pirate: let me say this one sentence

 

XDOOM owns the zone.

 

 

END OF STORY

 

Yeah I do ... but I take user suggestions and comments seriously. I don't take to rudeness and bashing though ... so pirateship, shut up and be polite and say, hey, I think there is a problem with the credits because of so and so, and here are my suggestions, what do you think?

 

That way, theres a normal discussion.

 

The wrong way is going "I'm going to quit playing because you changed something that affects 5% of the zone population waah waah waah whine whine whine you suck blah blah blah" becuase thats what you;ve been doing pirate.

[JDS]

lol pirate ship. subspace needs to evolve. and like anything else, the strong survive , the weak quit and die off.