American and Canadian Education

[AstroProdigy]

"Not some" doesn't mean "none". Seriously I think you're getting desperate here if you're trying to draw this conclusion out of nothing that there is somehow a contradiction. I never said none are lazy. I said the vast majority are not lazy. You make it out as if only a majority are not lazy. It is a huge majority that are not lazy. Again you seem to be having trouble with your definitions here.

[NBVegita]

i disagree. i literally started out poor. to the point where you can say my friends (older ones) were my family, they supported me financially. i don't know where you guys are from, but i was from the hood, and i never saw any education opportunities. maybe if you were white, it was there. but i'm not white, and neither were a lot of my friends who were trying to go somewhere in life. the system is really set up to keep the poor where they are. don't get me wrong, there are people who are poor and get to the top, but very few compared to the amount of middle class and high class people who get there as well.

 

Now this is where I disagree.

 

I grew up in the hood too. I've also had this argument multiple times with astro.

 

I'd like you to try and point out how coming from a poor neighborhood, and a poor school hurts your chances? And I'd really like to know how being a "minority" hurts your chances, because I was a minority at my school. Where I went to school, the break down was 56% Black, and 44% other. Out of that other, just under 20% where white. We didn't have enough books, and the ones we had were held together with tape. Sometimes you'd have to share a locker with 4 or 5 kids because half of them didn't work. Everyday to get into school you had to empty your pockets, walk through a metal detector, have them check through every pocket of your bag, then once you where through, they would manually wand you.I mean I could really just keep going on and on. And out of our top 15, me and the valedictorian were the only two white males.

 

The only major problem with the schools today, is that you cannot hold a student back. So no matter how bad they do, they can make it to high school (at least!) without knowing anything.

 

The major issue isn't the schools, its the parents and families of these kids. You could buy the nicest books money can buy, get dozens of guest speakers to come in, take visits to sit in on college lectures, pay for the AP exams, have a brand new state of the art school built. Yet you can't force these kids to read these nice new books. You can't force these kids to sit in those brand new chairs. You can't force them to listen to the lectures of the most knowledgeable people in the world.

 

!@#$%^&* the only reason why I have a bachelors from Syracuse University is through a program they exclusively offered to poor schools.

[ThunderJam]

"Not some" doesn't mean "none". Seriously I think you're getting desperate here if you're trying to draw this conclusion out of nothing that there is somehow a contradiction. I never said none are lazy. I said the vast majority are not lazy. You make it out as if only a majority are not lazy. It is a huge majority that are not lazy. Again you seem to be having trouble with your definitions here.

Soem refers to a group of people. A number, a defined amount, usually small. I could say "Some people at my school.." and be reffering to only 2 people, it can be miniscule. Sayign there are not some people that are lazy, is saying there is no one lazy lol.

[candygirl]

Some one i know was in the 10th grade. Moved to N.S and was put back 2 grades. In ont the schools are not all that good as you think.

If i can go back in time i would rather go to school in NS.

[AstroProdigy]

Soem refers to a group of people. A number, a defined amount, usually small. I could say "Some people at my school.." and be reffering to only 2 people, it can be miniscule. Sayign there are not some people that are lazy, is saying there is no one lazy lol.

"Not some" means "none"? Wow I guess the dictionary is wrong. If you wanted to say a very small minority you'd say so. Since we're above this misunderstanding now, are you saying you meant "a very small minority"?

[ThunderJam]

I can't believe we're arguing this astro. According to dicionaries some indicates a undetermined number of things. A group of unspecified size. If i say there are some lazy people, I am saying there exists people who are lazy. I said multiple times that this group is not the majority. So I said there is some minority who is lazy. By saying there isnt some, you are denying the existence of that group, since some indicates there is a group that is lazy.

[ESCANDAL0SA]

Now this is where I disagree.

 

I grew up in the hood too. I've also had this argument multiple times with astro.

 

I'd like you to try and point out how coming from a poor neighborhood, and a poor school hurts your chances? And I'd really like to know how being a "minority" hurts your chances, because I was a minority at my school. Where I went to school, the break down was 56% Black, and 44% other. Out of that other, just under 20% where white. We didn't have enough books, and the ones we had were held together with tape. Sometimes you'd have to share a locker with 4 or 5 kids because half of them didn't work. Everyday to get into school you had to empty your pockets, walk through a metal detector, have them check through every pocket of your bag, then once you where through, they would manually wand you.I mean I could really just keep going on and on. And out of our top 15, me and the valedictorian were the only two white males.

 

The only major problem with the schools today, is that you cannot hold a student back. So no matter how bad they do, they can make it to high school (at least!) without knowing anything.

 

The major issue isn't the schools, its the parents and families of these kids. You could buy the nicest books money can buy, get dozens of guest speakers to come in, take visits to sit in on college lectures, pay for the AP exams, have a brand new state of the art school built. Yet you can't force these kids to read these nice new books. You can't force these kids to sit in those brand new chairs. You can't force them to listen to the lectures of the most knowledgeable people in the world.

 

!@#$%^&* the only reason why I have a bachelors from Syracuse University is through a program they exclusively offered to poor schools.

 

growing up in the hood doesn't necessarily mean that you have to go to a poor school. not all public schools are poor. the percentage of poor schools compared to well-off schools is pretty small. even so, going to a poor school does hurt your chances. like you said, you barely had textbooks to learn with. how doesn't that hurt your chances? if you see that your school is all broken down, and nobody gives a !@#$%^&* to fix it, many kids would look at that and say, what's the point? you're underestimating the american education system. you can hold a student back, maybe not physically and directly, but it happens. again, this goes back to the self-fulfilling prophecy. yes, they can make it to high school, it's not that hard. but just because someone makes it to high school, it doesn't make them successful, and it doesn't mean that they're doing exceptionally well in high school. what i'm saying is even more evident in rich schools or schools that have some money. these schools do it more than poor schools, the system is set up to reflect "the rich get richer and the poor get poorer". you got to university through a program, but you're probably a part of a small number of kids from poor schools who do accomplish something in life.

[NBVegita]

Then I blame the parents for not inspiring their children.

 

If children aren't inspired by their parents, a brand new facility, or a nice book, or all the things money can buy won't help.

[LearJett+]

There are two problems with the American public education system:

 

1.) It's not about learning anymore, it's about feeling good about yourself. Tenth grade Americans and Koreans took the same math test. After taking this test, both groups were asked how well they think they grasp math. The Koreans vastly out-tested the Americans, but answered that they felt they did not do well. The Americans answered that they did great. It's a mindset that's cultivated by the education system. Do you think they have dozens of guidance counsellors and Deans of Students in Korea? No. In a few years, the only thing America will be the leading producer of is self-esteem.

 

2.) Funding. I'm not saying that there needs to be more. In fact, the funding has risen exponentially over the last thirty years, and the result has been lower performance by American students. The US government spends almost $10,000 per pupil each year. They could just give half of that out in the form of school vouchers and let students choose to go to a well-performing private school. There should be a choice as to where a student goes to school. The under-performing schools will shutdown, and the better ones will flourish.

 

LearJett+ for president '08

[SeVeR]

That's true about self-esteem. When Americans talk of taking an exam it's always like "I got 97%" or "What? You only got 60% in your exam, you must suck". What they don't realise is, American exams are full of easy questions to build self-esteem, while European exams have a low p!@#$%^&* grade but with much more difficult questions to stretch the student.

 

The p!@#$%^&* grade in English university examinations is 40%, the maximum degree level is for 70% and anything over.

[Bak]

it's different in universitiies, as there's some classes where 30% is a good score on a test (maybe because the professors come from places like europe hmm).

 

anyways, even if funding has risen exponentially, so has the number of students as well as inflation. how's the per-student funding adjusted for inflation look?

[ThunderJam]

I will say, the majority of american high schoolers only put in what they need to get the A or B. I do homework when I know the teacher is checking it for a grade, I only leard how to do the things I know will have questions on the quiz, etc. I think one of the problems is lack of incentive. Some people just feel like the only point of high school is to put on a good game face for college. Its like... If you can do just a little work and still get A's and B's, then why do a ton of work, and still get A's and B's... know what i mean?

[Falcoknight]

I will say, the majority of american high schoolers only put in what they need to get the A or B. I do homework when I know the teacher is checking it for a grade, I only leard how to do the things I know will have questions on the quiz, etc. I think one of the problems is lack of incentive. Some people just feel like the only point of high school is to put on a good game face for college. Its like... If you can do just a little work and still get A's and B's, then why do a ton of work, and still get A's and B's... know what i mean?

 

+1

This is pretty common.

Myself, and the other students that represent about the top 10% of my class usually do this. (With the exception of the like, top 2 or 3 kids, because they're obsessed with academics to a point where it's not even healthy.)

Most of us at the higher end of the spectrum see how easy most of the subject material is, so we only put in the minimal effort. Why put in hours and hours of work to get a 98-100% when half that effort can usually pull off a 94-96% without much trouble?

The bar in the American Education system has been lowered to the point that there is no incentive to work hard because there is no need to work hard if you have half a brain.

 

But even with public schools often having very easy materials (outside of the AP classes, but obviously AP classes are not a part of the required classes one must have to graduate) it's not stopping kids from setting their sites as high as being the manager at the local Burger King. My school has a dropout rate of ~40% between 9th and 12th grade. When I was in 9th grade, I had what was pretty much unanimously decided to be the easiest english teacher ever known to man. You could seriously be a blind monkey and still get a passing grade in that class. Yet he still told me at the end of the year that 35% of the students he had failed for the year. It wasn't because the kids were academically too dumb for the course, they were just lazy and had no ambition or role models. (Well, good role models anyway)

[MISTY_DAWN]

I graduated in the top 2% of my class..With honors, a presidential award and a full ride scholarship to any school of my choice. I graduated high school as a sophomore in college because of ACE Plus..I went to college every Saturday, starting sophomore year.... I was in Mu Alpha Theta, National Honors Society and the head Violinist for District Honor Orchestra..

On the side I played the piano, and went to karate 3 times a week..

 

However, I rarely did my homework..

All my accomplishments that I have gotten are thanks to my parents..They pushed me..

NOT the teachers, who didn’t even check that I didn’t do my homework. They were more busy focusing on those who were in danger of failing, (only cuz it would give the teachers a bad grade with the school district) then to notice us a/b students to see if we even done the course work. This made me become a lazy student and my grades began to fall...

 

If it wasn’t for my controlling father, I would have never made it back up from the d's to graduate in the top 2% of my class....

 

I think if the teachers would stop trying to cover their own !@#$%^&*, and get the parents more involved, it would help a lot..

Edited December 3, 2007 by MISTY_DAWN

[MISTY_DAWN]

oh and i don't think coming from a poor neighbor hood, hurts your chances... my school was in the ghetto, police were there every day, taking a kid off for having a gun...it was 75% Mexican 23% black 1.2% white and .8% Asian..

I felt this helped me a lot, however.....i was top 2%, but my GPA was only 3.45...

 

Saying you come from the ghetto and you have no chance is only you giving your self a reason to stop trying...

[ESCANDAL0SA]

oh and i don't think coming from a poor neighbor hood, hurts your chances... my school was in the ghetto, police were there every day, taking a kid off for having a gun...it was 75% Mexican 23% black 1.2% white and .8% Asian..

I felt this helped me a lot, however.....i was top 2%, but my GPA was only 3.45...

 

Saying you come from the ghetto and you have no chance is only you giving your self a reason to stop trying...

 

it DOES hurt your chances. more people succeed in rich areas than in poor. all my friends grew up in the projects in new york, went to bad schools. everyone that i know in new york are worse off than they would've been had they been in a different situation. i can honestly say that half didn't even finish high school. most of them are working dead end jobs, and now have kids to raise. in a ghetto area, you're more likely to suc!@#$%^&*b to pure pressure and get involved with criminal activities because you don't really have a purpose of staying in school.

 

i went to school in toronto, my school wasn't necessarily rich, but compared to the schools in new york, it wasn't that bad. (and in canada, there isn't really a relationship between amount of money a school has and academic success, it's more evident in america.) i'm in university now, but i wouldn't be if i stayed in my neighborhood in brooklyn. when i was there, what do you think i did all day? lol nothing productive. i got involved with a lot of bad things that i don't need to mention. the mentality there isn't necessarily optimistic. everyone there knew that continuing to live there wouldn't give them better chances, that's why i left, when i had the choice to stay there or come to toronto.

[LearJett+]

it's statistically proven that it hurts your chances.

 

 

 

the solution to the problem of public education is accountability. tenure is garbage. a teacher should continue to be a teacher because they can teach. i had so many old fart teachers in my high school that didn't challenge us because it would have been too much work for them to grade. i realize that teachers' unions are good in some instances, but often their demands are just ridiculous.

 

accountability will be detrimental to some teachers, yes... but what is the goal of education? is the product the teacher or the student?

 

people complain that vouchers cause public schools to lose money, but if students get a better education, who cares if a few public schools shut down and students and teachers together move to other, BETTER schools.

[Russky]

I will say, the majority of american high schoolers only put in what they need to get the A or B. I do homework when I know the teacher is checking it for a grade, I only leard how to do the things I know will have questions on the quiz, etc. I think one of the problems is lack of incentive. Some people just feel like the only point of high school is to put on a good game face for college. Its like... If you can do just a little work and still get A's and B's, then why do a ton of work, and still get A's and B's... know what i mean?

 

+1

This is pretty common.

Myself, and the other students that represent about the top 10% of my class usually do this. (With the exception of the like, top 2 or 3 kids, because they're obsessed with academics to a point where it's not even healthy.)

Most of us at the higher end of the spectrum see how easy most of the subject material is, so we only put in the minimal effort. Why put in hours and hours of work to get a 98-100% when half that effort can usually pull off a 94-96% without much trouble?

The bar in the American Education system has been lowered to the point that there is no incentive to work hard because there is no need to work hard if you have half a brain.

 

But even with public schools often having very easy materials (outside of the AP classes, but obviously AP classes are not a part of the required classes one must have to graduate) it's not stopping kids from setting their sites as high as being the manager at the local Burger King. My school has a dropout rate of ~40% between 9th and 12th grade. When I was in 9th grade, I had what was pretty much unanimously decided to be the easiest english teacher ever known to man. You could seriously be a blind monkey and still get a passing grade in that class. Yet he still told me at the end of the year that 35% of the students he had failed for the year. It wasn't because the kids were academically too dumb for the course, they were just lazy and had no ambition or role models. (Well, good role models anyway)

 

i don't think there are that many dumb people that the fail rate is 35% or whatever you mentioned just people are 'unmotivated' or lazy to do anything else. plus in comparison we got so many other alternatives to doing homework... like this game people always think that doing the bare minimum will allow them to do just fine...

 

now i am a hypocrite cause i do the same thing

[NBVegita]

I reiterate its all about the parents. If your kids think they can't succede, then they can't.

 

If you don't work hard, they won't. Even if you have a !@#$%^&*ty job, but bust your !@#$%^&* at it, that creates a work ethic.

 

The work ethic in todays lower class is: "the less I do the more the government pays"

 

It makes me sick.

 

And jet the only reason why that statistic is true is because it goes hand in hand with the statistic the lower class is more lethargic and less motivated than the middle and upper classes.

 

You can try to argue all you want that its hard to be movitated to work a minimum wage job and barely get by, but any job that is giving you food for yourself and or children, a roof over your head, and clothes on your back, no matter how good or bad, is worth being motivated for.

 

I'm sick of people making excuses for the unmotivated, lethargic slugs of america.

[ThunderJam]

Anyway i just got off a 30 mins phone convo with a girl talking about this teacher that shes pissed at. Our AP Literature teacher has never emphasized needing to have w/e book we are reading with us at class (currently Hamlet) since he always has extras in the room if you don't have it. Basically she doesnt usually bring her book on tues or thurs because on those days she also has to bring in two extra textbooks for other classes. So her backpack is full, and she just uses one of the books on the shelf in the classroom. So today we come in to class, he says get out your books, and procedes to ask us 5 questions for a quiz. We had maybe 2 mins to answer each question at most. They were simple like "In Act X scene X what is so and so's first line." Didn't test knowledge of the book, no interpretation, just simple quoting and sayign stuff straight out of the book. The teacher wouldnt let my friend use her book, so she failed. Turns out the quiz was worth 15 points, which will bring my friend down from a B to a C.

 

Thing is he has never been frustrated with people who don't bring books, never says "make sure you have it tomoro," just lets people use his. When she brought this up to him cuz she thought it was unfair, he says it was in my sylabus at the begining of the year taht you need to have it. She checked the sylabus, it doesnt say that.

 

Long story made short: teachers don't grade on stuff that accurately shows students understanding of the course material. Another thing I've always said about my AP classes is this: On AP tests, a score of like 75% is a top grade. However in our classes we tack practice AP problem sets, and they count for a grade. Say we get 70% on the practice set of problems, thats a very very good score, FOR AN AP EXAM, but for normal school thats a C, and not so good. So you can esily go thru an AP class getting awful grades, but do well on the AP exam... so many teachers just suck at making their grades reflect the right things.

[Bak]

yeah i always thought that the teachers in high school can pretty much change your grade to whatever they want, especially when they say 30% is based on ambiguous things like "participation". That means they can swing you up or down a letter grade and you can't say boo. It gets much better in college.

[tcsoccer and neptune]

Its seriously annoying when you put the same answers/concept on an asignment, and the teacher favors someone else. Then I remember tons of teachers would lose papers that you turn in and mark you down two letter grades.