American and Canadian Education

[SeVeR]

America is as democratic and free as is needed to keep the people believing they are living in a democratic and free country.

 

In other news, the American education system has been in decline for the last 50 years...

[JDS]

they do seem dumber nowa day :\

[AstroProdigy]

They are :-\. The only thing that saved me any shred of intelligence was living in a good neighborhood full of immigrants with immigrant parents. Turns out immigrants and their kids are the only thing keeping America going. !@#$%^&* those immigrants ruining our economy!

[candygirl]

America is as democratic and free as is needed to keep the people believing they are living in a democratic and free country.

 

In other news, the American education system has been in decline for the last 50 years...

 

You can say the samething about canadas education system.

[ESCANDAL0SA]

http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_16370.aspx

http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_16499.aspx

 

 

 

oh...and i don't think Canada's education system is declining.

it's on a much higher level than America's.

Edited November 6, 2007 by L0SA

[JDS]

public schools are pretty !@#$%^&*ty in canada.. but on an average much higher than america..

 

edit: MUCH^^

Edited November 7, 2007 by JDS

[WongKonPow]

the actual content of Canada's education system is great, what we need are better teachers, and smaller classrooms.

[ESCANDAL0SA]

You get much better education in Canada than you do in America, trust me.

 

I'm telling you... the majority of people in America are stupid.

[NBVegita]

Yes we need immigrants in this country...who else is going to park our cars and cook our fast food?

 

I think the biggest problem in America is that the successful parents of the past, who worked hour weeks to make America what it is today, have been spoiled so they don't care anymore. Even in the middle class and lower class, most people are content with having just what their parents have/had.

 

I would speculate that the American people don't have a lack of education, more so a lack of motivation.

 

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

 

Unless that is if you live down south where the inbreeding has begun to reverse evolution.

[ThunderJam]

They are :-\. The only thing that saved me any shred of intelligence was living in a good neighborhood full of immigrants with immigrant parents. Turns out immigrants and their kids are the only thing keeping America going. !@#$%^&* those immigrants ruining our economy!

Quite a broad spectrum of people you are addressing there.

 

I go to a school that is 35% asian along with lots of other ethnic groups, and last year we were ranked 17th best public high school in the nation by newsweek. From this situation I can see how people new to the country can have a massive drive to succeede because they feel like they need to establish themselves. However you can't quite say that about ALL immigrants. There are problems caused by immigrants and I think saying they are the ONLY thing keeping America running is absurd.

[Bak]

the actual content of Canada's education system is great

 

um... the content is pretty much the same in all countries

 

also, teachers have little incentive to go above and beyond, as they can't get paid more if they do exceptionally. In a regular job, if you do well you get a bonus or raise. I don't side with the conservatives often, but it seems like a no-brainer here.

[Falcoknight]

I'd say there are three blatantly obvious reasons for the failing education system in America, in no particular order:

 

1. Kids don't care.

2. Teachers don't care

3. Schools don't get enough funding and/or don't know how to spend the money they get.

 

On 1, I can see why. There is really nothing in American society to inspire a child to want to do well academically. It seems the media and our society as a whole spends much more energy giving attention to the "flukes" who got no education and just managed to get lucky and get rich in some way or another, instead of focusing on the other millions of people with only a high school education working at Wal-Mart all their lives. Regardless of that though, there are still a massive amount of kids who are just spoiled and lazy.

 

2. I don't blame them at all. These people work their !@#$%^&*es off and don't get !@#$%^&* for it. They get paid crap and don't get any respect. My anatomy teacher went back to school for her Masters so she could make more teaching, and she still makes less than the median income. Whenever a child does poorly in a class, the parents never think "I need to whip this little !@#$%^&* into shape." No, instead they come and !@#$%^&* and moan at the teacher about the teacher being too hard or too unfair in their grading. To be a teacher, you really have to love what you do, but even your love for teaching has to be worn down eventually, and making !@#$%^&* money and taking crap from bratty teens all day ends up making someone into just another one of the oh so many complacent teachers in our education system that really just don't care anymore.

 

3.I'm sure you've all heard the saying "It will be a great day when schools get the money they need and the military has to hold a bakesale."

Though it is often true that schools are under-funded, it also comes down to the fact that the people spending the money are border-line re!@#$%^&*ed. At our school we've had the same History books since 1989. Most of them have their spines ducktaped, and in some classes there aren't enough because many have fallen apart from being used. The school spent enough money to buy 100 new history books, only enough for one history teacher to give to his four classes. Unfortunately I did not have that teacher, and everyone but those 100 students are still using the old ones.

Want to know where the rest of the money went?

First to brand new uniforms for the JV and Varsity football teams (Which lost after only two play-off games). These bad boys apparently cost around $200 each, and then you can't forget the helmets, throw another $50 dollars on top per helmet. So $250 per player, with about 60 players between Varisty and JV.

Then our school went and bought 100 brand new hurdles for our track team. At $180 dollars each, these were clearly worth it, as we didn't already have dozens of older hurdles that were almost all in near perfect condition.

 

So let's do a comparison.

100 history books, I would assume each cost between 100 and 120 dollars.

So our school spent $10,000-$12,000 on education materials.

Then 60 jerseys+helmets and 100 hurdles.

Our school spent $33,000 on sports, and we haven't even entered the season for the "big sports" at our school, like hockey.

 

So basically, the reason the American education system is such !@#$%^&* is because A) Too many kids don't give a !@#$%^&*, Too many parents don't care that their kids don't give a !@#$%^&*, C)Teachers are underpaid and as a result: Don't give a !@#$%^&*, D) The people in charge of the schools were probably barely able to graduate from high school themselves.

 

 

There is no big conspiracy behind it, there is no mysterious reason that no one can find, if you spend a few weeks in most of the public schools in the U.S., it becomes quite apparent that the problems facing the American educational system are both incredibly obvious, often very easy to remedy, and all together ignored by the people in power in our country.

[AstroProdigy]

Quite a broad spectrum of people you are addressing there.

 

I go to a school that is 35% asian along with lots of other ethnic groups, and last year we were ranked 17th best public high school in the nation by newsweek. From this situation I can see how people new to the country can have a massive drive to succeede because they feel like they need to establish themselves. However you can't quite say that about ALL immigrants. There are problems caused by immigrants and I think saying they are the ONLY thing keeping America running is absurd.

 

Uh proof? Examples? If it's Mexicans you say are causing more trouble than they're worth then go ahead and send them back and watch what happens to the prices of all those services they so nicely provide getting substandard wages. On the whole immigrants are very essential precisely because they feel they need to succeed whereas Americans wrongly think they're safe in this country.

 

Falcoknight: The schools screw up because they can. Kids have to go to their zoned school and if that school sucks then tough !@#$%^&* for them. The money is also attached to the school instead of the kids so the schools feel no need to compete for money by offering a good education. European schools do much better with much less funding because they know how to run an education system. It's funny how we in America control the system, whereas Europeans allow free compe!@#$%^&*ion. We also will not fire a teacher even if they are utterly incompetent. We send them to a special building where they sit and get paid and waste tax payer money.

Edited November 21, 2007 by AstroProdigy

[ESCANDAL0SA]

for those who do live in Canada, until you've been to America and seen the schools, I don't think you really understand what I mean when I say that their education system really sucks. Take me for example.... if I went to school in America (Brooklyn), do you know where i'd be right now? No where. I'd probably be dropped out of school, working at a dead end job, no post-secondary education, smoking weed, doing !@#$%^&* with my life. But I chose to go to school in Canada and now I'm in university, getting my degrees, etc. You guys don't understand that being of a race other than White... you don't get good education in America. Teachers don't care about you so that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy for kids who are a visible minority. The system is pretty much set up to help those at the top, and leave those at the bottom. The rich get richer while the poor get poorer. Edited November 21, 2007 by L0SA

[NBVegita]

Yet if you are anything besides a white male, you get all the aid in the world to go to college.

 

Falcon made a very good post.

 

And as for Europe, Advanced math a discouraged subject in the UK after the age of 16, I believe, in public schools. The believe it is too tough of a subject on the students.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/6588695.stm

 

Every education system has its flaws.

 

It's no coincidence that 346 of the 746 richest people in the world are Americans.

 

The system is pretty much set up to help those at the top, and leave those at the bottom. The rich get richer while the poor get poorer.

 

Coming from a poor family I experienced the opposite of that. I've found that its easier for the poor to get rich than it is for the middle class to get rich.

[ESCANDAL0SA]

Coming from a poor family I experienced the opposite of that. I've found that its easier for the poor to get rich than it is for the middle class to get rich.

 

 

i came from nothing... and it was hard for me. generally speaking though, it's not really easy for the poor to get rich. i think it's easier for middle class.

[Falcoknight]

Also coming from a poor family, I'd have to agree with NB. I think it's much easier for the middle class to stay middle class, but I'd say when it comes to higher education someone coming from the lower class has many more opportunities (as long as they have the drive) than a white, middle class kid.

 

In the middle class more than likely your family makes too much for you to get financial aid, and too little to pay for you to get through college without some big sacrifices.

[ThunderJam]

Quite a broad spectrum of people you are addressing there.

 

I go to a school that is 35% asian along with lots of other ethnic groups, and last year we were ranked 17th best public high school in the nation by newsweek. From this situation I can see how people new to the country can have a massive drive to succeede because they feel like they need to establish themselves. However you can't quite say that about ALL immigrants. There are problems caused by immigrants and I think saying they are the ONLY thing keeping America running is absurd.

 

Uh proof? Examples? If it's Mexicans you say are causing more trouble than they're worth then go ahead and send them back and watch what happens to the prices of all those services they so nicely provide getting substandard wages. On the whole immigrants are very essential precisely because they feel they need to succeed whereas Americans wrongly think they're safe in this country.

You doubt that theres ANY immigrants that have a negative effect? I'm not denying that as a majority they help the economy and come with good values, but im saying that you can't apply that to absolutely all of them. In the news a year ago there was a thing going around abotu how people wanted the national anthem in spanish so they could understand it. I think that's a good example. There are people who come to this country, without wanting to put the effort in to do well and adjust to our way of life. They just want to piggy back off the system and try to reap benefits without putting anything in. I AM NOT SAYIGN THIS OF A SPECIFIC ETHNIC GROUP. I'm not saying mexicans are the ones doing this, altho some mexicans do, I'm not sayign its specifically asians doing this, tho some asians do. I'm just saying you can't apply an all or nothing argument to this.

 

Oh and losa, yea there are tons of crappy schools, but dont judge the whole country on it, some areas are very good educationally too. In my county we have 3 high schools rated in the top 30 or so in the country. People in my high school think they suck at school if they have below a 3.5 GPA. We don't keep class rankings because they would have to determine who is better in the 1/3 of the school that has straight A's. We have so many AP/college courses that I can't count them, the average student probly takes 6 before leaving school. We have actualy (not AP, but real college teachers coming frmo a local university) taught at our school on a college schedule (2-3 day a week classes) that students showing good acadmic skill can take. We have at least 50 kids internting at NIH (National Ins!@#$%^&*utes of Healt) which is 30 minutes away. To make a long story short: for every awful school, there are good schools too.

Edited November 22, 2007 by ThunderJam

[Bak]

as a side point, what's wrong with spanish people wanted to be patriotic?

 

America doesn't have a national language; I don't see anything wrong with people not learning English if they don't want to. Sure it'll set them back, but they know that.

[ThunderJam]

Sorry was a little vague, the isntance I was talking about wasn't wanting it in spanish to be patriotic or show pride in their culture. The story I heard was due to them not knowing enough english to understand it. I they watned it in spanish in like major things, sports games, schools, etc. My thoughts are, you reap what you sow. If they're going to come here and not put in the effort to learn english well, I don't have much respect for that. If you want success, you gotta put in serious effort. That's all i meant, that there are some people who want to benefit frmo our system, but aren't bothering to put anything into it. Edited November 22, 2007 by ThunderJam

[ESCANDAL0SA]

Also coming from a poor family, I'd have to agree with NB. I think it's much easier for the middle class to stay middle class, but I'd say when it comes to higher education someone coming from the lower class has many more opportunities (as long as they have the drive) than a white, middle class kid.

 

In the middle class more than likely your family makes too much for you to get financial aid, and too little to pay for you to get through college without some big sacrifices.

 

i disagree. i literally started out poor. to the point where you can say my friends (older ones) were my family, they supported me financially. i don't know where you guys are from, but i was from the hood, and i never saw any education opportunities. maybe if you were white, it was there. but i'm not white, and neither were a lot of my friends who were trying to go somewhere in life. the system is really set up to keep the poor where they are. don't get me wrong, there are people who are poor and get to the top, but very few compared to the amount of middle class and high class people who get there as well.

 

Sorry was a little vague, the isntance I was talking about wasn't wanting it in spanish to be patriotic or show pride in their culture. The story I heard was due to them not knowing enough english to understand it. I they watned it in spanish in like major things, sports games, schools, etc. My thoughts are, you reap what you sow. If they're going to come here and not put in the effort to learn english well, I don't have much respect for that. If you want success, you gotta put in serious effort. That's all i meant, that there are some people who want to benefit frmo our system, but aren't bothering to put anything into it.

 

 

i agree...i'm spanish myself and it pisses me off when people of any ethnic background don't understand english. even though America doesn't have a national language, it's pretty much !@#$%^&*umed that English should be known, since you can say that it's the universal language.

[AstroProdigy]

I think there are 2 fallacies being committed here in this discussion.

 

The first one is from ThunderJam. The vast majority of immigrants do not come to America to sit around and collect welfare. In fact the illegal immigrants aren't even eligible for welfare. They come here to work and get wages they can survive on because that's not available where they come from. Coming from an immigrant family myself very very VERY few come to be lazy and reap the benefits without working. People leave their homeland to come to a strange land because they HAVE to not because they want to sit around reaping welfare checks. As a community Mexicans are essential to our American economy as are all the other immigrant communities. It's not until they start to seriously Americanize that they get lazier.

 

The second fallacy is in using the success of college education justify a failure of education at the most basic levels. Scholarships and aid will make only limited difference if you can't even get to that point. The failure of our education system isn't at the college level. We have the best universities in the world and although we have a lot of massively overpriced colleges we also offer a lot of cheap ones and have plenty of financial aid for the poor. The problem comes from elementary school-high school where America fails so miserably your head spins. The problems are magnified for minorities at these levels especially in communities where they are predominant. There are plenty of examples of people who really work hard there and succeed anyway, but this should not be an excuse for inaction.

Edited November 22, 2007 by AstroProdigy

[ThunderJam]

I think there are 2 fallacies being committed here in this discussion.

 

The first one is from ThunderJam. The vast majority of immigrants do not come to America to sit around and collect welfare. In fact the illegal immigrants aren't even eligible for welfare. They come here to work and get wages they can survive on because that's not available where they come from. Coming from an immigrant family myself very very VERY few come to be lazy and reap the benefits without working. People leave their homeland to come to a strange land because they HAVE to not because they want to sit around reaping welfare checks. As a community Mexicans are essential to our American economy as are all the other immigrant communities. It's not until they start to seriously Americanize that they get lazier.

I really think that you just skim my posts and don't really read them. its unbelievable. Please read this time, now that im posting it again:

 

You doubt that theres ANY immigrants that have a negative effect? I'm not denying that as a majority they help the economy and come with good values, but im saying that you can't apply that to absolutely all of them.

I NEVER SAID THE VAST MAJORITY COME TO COLLECT WELFARE. I SAID THE MAJORITY HELPS, good god...

[AstroProdigy]

There are people who come to this country' date=' without wanting to put the effort in to do well and adjust to our way of life. They just want to piggy back off the system and try to reap benefits without putting anything in. I AM NOT SAYIGN THIS OF A SPECIFIC ETHNIC GROUP. I'm not saying mexicans are the ones doing this, altho some mexicans do, I'm not sayign its specifically asians doing this, tho some asians do. I'm just saying you can't apply an all or nothing argument to this.[/quote']

 

...and I'm saying there aren't SOME people come to America not willing to put the effort in a very tiny minority does. When I say the vast majority do not come to collect welfare I mean the vast majority work hard. I'm sorry if you have trouble coming up with the actual conclusions my posts make and not the ones you want them to make. You make it out as if there's a large population of immigrants coming to America that are lazy good for nothings, but the majority work hard. What I'm saying is the very vast majority work hard and not just the majority.

Edited November 24, 2007 by AstroProdigy

[ThunderJam]

There are people who come to this country' date=' without wanting to put the effort in to do well and adjust to our way of life. They just want to piggy back off the system and try to reap benefits without putting anything in. I AM NOT SAYIGN THIS OF A SPECIFIC ETHNIC GROUP. I'm not saying mexicans are the ones doing this, altho some mexicans do, I'm not sayign its specifically asians doing this, tho some asians do. I'm just saying you can't apply an all or nothing argument to this.[/quote']

 

...and I'm saying there aren't SOME people come to America not willing to put the effort in a very tiny minority does. When I say the vast majority do not come to collect welfare I mean the vast majority work hard. I'm sorry if you have trouble coming up with the actual conclusions my posts make and not the ones you want them to make. You make it out as if there's a large population of immigrants coming to America that are lazy good for nothings, but the majority work hard. What I'm saying is the very vast majority work hard and not just the majority.

"Im saying there aren't SOME people come to America not willing to put the effort in" (this basically says, there are not people who come and are lazy, obviously wrong, this is an absolute stament saying there are NONE) then you say "a very tiny minority does," so you contradict yourself. You say none are lazy, but only a few are. Then you continue to justify your statement that the majority works hard. Why are you still backing that up? I agreed to that, two or three times already. Then you say "You make it out as if there's a large population of immigrants coming to America that are lazy good for nothings." Do you read my posts? I have continually said that the majority is good, but there are still some (if i said majority already, then some must be refering to the remaining smaller minority) who aren't. I'm not the one who needs touch up on logic.