Islamic Wife beating

[Bak]

your post can be "used and understood" by idiots to commit genocide too. we shouldn't throw away the bible for this reason

[ThunderJam]

We're getting closer to an understanding i think...

 

We are saying homosexuality is a sin, and thus it follows the same rules. It can end, it can be forgiven and paid for by God's son...

 

...I've seen flyers passed around my public school abotu organizations of ex-gays that are willing to talk to teens who consider themselves gay. Obvious gay people can change, and from a religious perspective, their sin can be forgiven...

 

As a christian, I can not hate a gay person as a sinner, because I am a sinner too. The Bible says to remove the plank from your own eye before you try to remove the speck from your friends. Or Jesus said about a women being persecuted for adultery "Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone upon her." For this reason, I can't look down upon homosexuals or persecute them, because just as much as their sin condemns them, I and condemned for my own sins. We are together in our sin, but I can hope that they come clean of it and let Jesus pay for it. This is where "love your neighbor" comes in. Yes they've sinned, they are condemned to !@#$%^&*, but so am I, so instead of hating, hope and pray that maybe they can experience mercy that I have.

I'm glad you admit that homosexuality is a Christian sin. I'm not denying that gay people can change to straight, although this can go both ways and straight can become gay. It wasn't really my point anyway, sexuality is clear cut in that at any particular point in time you're gay or straight, i.e. you can never be both (for the most part). Again though, i don't really see the point of discussing this.

 

Basically what you seem to be saying is: "I have sinned, but my faith in Jesus means i have gotten away with it. The homosexuals have also sinned, but they don't have faith in Jesus and are therefore going to !@#$%^&*". Secondly, "The homosexuals have sinned, but they have sinned far more than me. They are also proud of their sins, continue to sin, and even though they know about Jesus, they reject him, unlike me"

 

Is this accurate? I don't see how you can get equality from this.

It's not getting away with it, that implies no remorse, and a at!@#$%^&*ude that thinks "It's fine for me to keep sinning." Sure I'm going to keep sinning in some way, no one can stop, but are faith is based on grace, thankfulness, repentance, and an effort to change. And i never said homosexual have sinned more then me, I said we are the same, and we are BOTH continuing to sin. Don't take my saying "they don't know Jesus" as pride. I don't think of myself as better then them because I know Jesus, because as the bible says, being saved is nothing on our parts. It's pure grace and mercy on God's part. I havn't done anything special, and thus I can't think of myself as above them for beign saved. Most christians will tell you that they personally are the worst sinner they know, because in light of God's forgiveness, we become so much more aware of how bad we are.

 

 

Would you say that many adults have the mental capacity of children? Would you even go so far as to say that religion can sometimes be the cause of a lack of education? I've never seen such a poor grasp of the English language as i have with the Christians i've debated with over the years (obviously not universal, before someone bites my head off).

 

You're dissociating homophobia from the justification for it. Homophobic at!@#$%^&*udes find a sanctuary in religion. It can fester and amplify within that sanctuary. Homosexuality, being a Christian sin, can undoubtedly be the initial cause aswell. All religions include people who seek to emulate God's perfection by persecuting sinners. Thus it is clear that Christianity will be the cause of hatred for homosexuals among some of it's followers.

 

Do you think Christianity isn't the cause of the abortion doctor killers? It's a little specific don't you think?

 

Religion is passed down by parents, and so are all the ideas that come with it. It's naive to think that these related ideas, such as homophobia, have nothing to do with the religion. They have to come from somewhere.

Lack of enlish language can't have anything to do with the religion. Most christians go to the same schools you go to, and if anything they might have good english from reading odd translations of the Bible such as King James.

 

Again though, you said we include to emulate God's perfection by persecuting sinners. People who are doing that aren't true Christians. Faith is a state of being of the mind. Going to church weekly doesn't justify you as being a Christian, its your heart, your mindset. Anyone who kills an abortion doctor or persecutes homosexuals in the name of Christianity is not living by Christian morals whatsoever, and can hardly be called a Christian. This is for the reasons I previously stated about "Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone" and so on.

 

Also remember that not all Christians grew up that way. Yes a lot did grow up Christians, but there are plenty who didn't too. I would say that most the adults at my church who did grow up Christian, tell you that they deviated from religion for up to ten years from their teen years till mid twenties. Don't think that Christians have never experienced anything besides Christianity.

Edited November 18, 2007 by NBVegita
Adjusted quote tag with sever's name not mine

[NBVegita]

Do you think Christianity isn't the cause of the abortion doctor killers? It's a little specific don't you think?

 

Actually I don't believe that. Many people believe abortion is wrong, not because of their religion, but because they honestly believe that you're killing a child, or what is to be a child. That has no religious affiliation.

 

Special interest groups take things too far nowadays. Just look at PETA, they've most likely had the most assassination attempts of any organization, and there is no religious motivation there.

 

Would you say that many adults have the mental capacity of children?

 

No I would not. Children have a unique mental capacity, that is lost as you age. Children to not comprehend the idea of religion. Children have a capacity to learn for themselves, so they do not fear what they are told is bad. Case in point, how many of you as children were told not to touch the hot pan because it is very hot and would hurt very much, but did it anyway?

 

The idea of homosexuality being bad isn't brought up very often in churches, unless your priest is a little on the bigot side. As children go, the majority of where they would hear rhetoric about homosexuals would be from their parents and their friends parents.

 

It's naive to think that these related ideas, such as homophobia, have nothing to do with the religion. They have to come from somewhere.

 

What I've tried to point out multiple times is this:

 

Religion tells us not to lust, be lazy, be greedy, have premarital sex, have multiple partners, have abortions, lie, cheat, steal, not to indulge in homosexual acts, ect.

 

Why then, of all of the things that people are sent to !@#$%^&* for, and people are !@#$%^&*ed for, does this religion breed hatred only/mostly for homosexuals and not other more serious sins?

 

Every statement I've made I've used the disclaimer that this is excluding the fanatics/zealots.

 

Your interpretation is an extreme one, same as in an earlier post that you said the bible could be interpreted to promote the killing of abortion doctors. Only a zealot/fanatic, or someone who is not of a solid state of mind could come to the conclusions that you are suggesting. I've never disagreed with that from the beginning.

[SeVeR]

Hmm NBV, i answered the question at the end of your post in that post you didn't have time to reply to. I'll come back later to make a proper reply.

[AstroProdigy]

What I've tried to point out multiple times is this:

 

Religion tells us not to lust' date=' be lazy, be greedy, have premarital sex, have multiple partners, have abortions, lie, cheat, steal, not to indulge in homosexual acts, ect.

 

Why then, of all of the things that people are sent to !@#$%^&* for, and people are !@#$%^&*ed for, does this religion breed hatred only/mostly for homosexuals and not other more serious sins?[/quote']

 

What Sever has said and I agree is that while most of the things on your list are done by just about everyone, homosexuality only includes a fraction of the population and thus the majority, with their hands clean of it, can go ahead and persecute the minority because the bible tells them it's wrong and they think "well at least this time I wouldn't be a hypocrite". The people who might have homosexual desires of their own are so ashamed of it (because of the hostile environment that many Christian groups support and most of the rest are complacent to) that they compensate by being even bigger bigots. Sure there may be many aspects to this, but if Christianity were not one of them this bigotry would crumble in today's world.

[SeVeR]

NBV: The difference exists in the Christian's ability to identify or prove sloth, adultery and greed. When is someone being greedy or lazy? The line is difficult to draw. Homosexuality is clear cut, you either engage in homosexual acts or you don't. However, I'll say one thing with certainty: If sloth or greed is identified and proven in someone, then i would fully expect the same levels of hatred to emerge within Christians as with homosexuality.

 

Other than the Christian's ability to identify the sin (greed and sloth being hard to identify), there is another attribute that will affect the levels of hatred. Naturally, our hatred is directed at those who are different to ourselves. Thus pride, greed, gluttony and sloth are very human characteristics, and every man, woman and child could interpret themselves as having committed these sins. Sexuality is a mutually exclusive attribute for the most part: Gay or straight.

 

So not only is hatred is based on how much one can !@#$%^&*ociate the topic of hatred with the person to be hated, but it's also based on how much it cannot be !@#$%^&*ociated with the self. If these criteria are met with sloth or greed as much as with homosexuality, then the level of hatred should be no different.

 

That fact that the other "sins" you've mentioned do not meet these criteria as much as with homosexuality, is the reason we don't see Christian hate groups forming which oppose gluttony or greed.

 

Actually I don't believe that. Many people believe abortion is wrong, not because of their religion, but because they honestly believe that you're killing a child, or what is to be a child. That has no religious affiliation.

I tend to go by the fact that these groups are seen holding Christian-religious banners for my proof they have a religious affiliation.

 

"Paul Hill, who is to be executed in two weeks for the shotgun slayings of an abortion doctor and his bodyguard in Pensacola, says he's at peace with himself and would probably kill again. Hill, a one-time Presbyterian minister, has said God led him to shoot Dr. John Britton, 69, and his driver, James Barrett, 74, as they arrived at a Pensacola abortion clinic in July 1994."

 

Maybe God is a code-word for parental abuse or mental illness?

 

The idea of homosexuality being bad isn't brought up very often in churches, unless your priest is a little on the bigot side. As children go, the majority of where they would hear rhetoric about homosexuals would be from their parents and their friends parents.

Ok good. Firstly then, where do you think their parents got their homophobia from? Religion gets passed down by parents along with all the ideas that come with it. Secondly, all it takes is one priest-bigot, and you can get a significant percentage of a congregation following his ideals. Where other than a religion could you find such devoted followers of one man and his wayward interpretation of a religious book?

[SeVeR]

TJ:

Again though, you said we include to emulate God's perfection by persecuting sinners. People who are doing that aren't true Christians. Faith is a state of being of the mind. Going to church weekly doesn't justify you as being a Christian, its your heart, your mindset. Anyone who kills an abortion doctor or persecutes homosexuals in the name of Christianity is not living by Christian morals whatsoever, and can hardly be called a Christian. This is for the reasons I previously stated about "Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone" and so on.

They read the same book, they belong to the same religion, some are even ministers for that religion (my last post), and all they need is to interpret a fraction of the holy book in a different way. It would be nice to dispel Christianity of blame, but without Christianity these people wouldn't exist in the way they do.

 

Don't think that Christians have never experienced anything besides Christianity.

I don't know why that's relevent. Once you believe in the Bible, and are acting on your interpretation of the Bible, then you are Christian.

 

It's not getting away with it, that implies no remorse, and a at!@#$%^&*ude that thinks "It's fine for me to keep sinning." Sure I'm going to keep sinning in some way, no one can stop, but are faith is based on grace, thankfulness, repentance, and an effort to change. And i never said homosexual have sinned more then me, I said we are the same, and we are BOTH continuing to sin. Don't take my saying "they don't know Jesus" as pride. I don't think of myself as better then them because I know Jesus, because as the bible says, being saved is nothing on our parts. It's pure grace and mercy on God's part. I havn't done anything special, and thus I can't think of myself as above them for beign saved. Most christians will tell you that they personally are the worst sinner they know, because in light of God's forgiveness, we become so much more aware of how bad we are.

'Getting away with it' was a poor way to explain what i meant. I understand that you regret your sins and don't intend to repeat them. However, due to the 'purity of heart' you possess, you are no longer equal in God's eyes with the un-forgiven sinner. You will go to heaven and the other guy will go to !@#$%^&*. Thus it is not equality from the moment you accept Jesus.

 

You merely believe that you deserve a better after-life for accepting Jesus. It's not pride, it's a kind of religious racism, where Christians get special treatment in the after-life, and non-Christians do not. You give homosexuals the option to join your special group, but only if they renounce what they are. They are excluded, as are people like me who cannot have faith.

 

What i've gathered from what you've said is: Homosexuals are proud sinners who reject Jesus and continue to sin.

 

There need not be any pride in this. It's like saying you're superior to an animal. You and the animal may have sinned the same amount, you may not be proud to be better than the animal, but inevitably you believe your existence will be more fulfilled.

[NBVegita]

Sever:

Where other than a religion could you find such devoted followers of one man and his wayward interpretation of a religious book?

 

Maybe just about any other religion out there? Dare I say middle east?

 

Astro:

Sure there may be many aspects to this, but if Christianity were not one of them this bigotry would crumble in today's world.

 

This is where I disagree. Both of my parents, my mother is even wiccan, my father is not at all religious, have a bigotry towards homosexuals. They didn't learn it from any religion, and their fathers before them hated homosexuals, and they were not religious. As I've stated prior to this, religion is just an excuse for the bigotry, not the cause. If you don't have religion to fall back on you have to use an excuse like my mother uses: "They don't contribute anything to society", or something like that, where as with religion, if you dislike homosexuals you can simply say "Well its a sin in my faith, so I hate them for being sinners."

 

Ultimately you guys are arguing for the rogue preachers and the radical zealots, and from the start I've stated that you will always find people like that in any religion. It's a simply media ploy, as it is with the way you always see homosexuals on tv. When there is a protest the media only focuses on the "God hates ASSS" signs, because they know that it is a charged issue that will increase their ratings.

 

Sever:

Maybe God is a code-word for parental abuse or mental illness?

 

There have also been a mul!@#$%^&*ude of serial killers and m!@#$%^&* murderers who believed they were doing God's work, or killing for God when they committed their crimes.

 

On an extreme level, you can use just about any holy book/religion, the bible included, to justify just about any act. But since the beginning I've implicitly stated I'm not arguing the extreme.

[JDS]

why the !@#$%^&*, cant we just get along.

 

 

were all here, on the same place, there is no reason why we cant get along.

 

wait.. yea there is

 

the reason? ignorance.

 

 

Il offer anyone a ride home, or give him the shirt off my back if he needs it more than me. And if everyone was like that < this thread would be useless and you'd all feel like ASSS.

 

 

 

edit, id just like to say, READ THIS AND THINK -- ' is it that simple'

AND THEN ANSWER YOUR SELF 'yes'

 

 

edit 2: and the ironic thing? Jesus teaches this. but hey, its !@#$%^&*ing common sense, congrats captain obvious jesus

Edited November 19, 2007 by JDS

[ThunderJam]

TJ:

Again though, you said we include to emulate God's perfection by persecuting sinners. People who are doing that aren't true Christians. Faith is a state of being of the mind. Going to church weekly doesn't justify you as being a Christian, its your heart, your mindset. Anyone who kills an abortion doctor or persecutes homosexuals in the name of Christianity is not living by Christian morals whatsoever, and can hardly be called a Christian. This is for the reasons I previously stated about "Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone" and so on.

They read the same book, they belong to the same religion, some are even ministers for that religion (my last post), and all they need is to interpret a fraction of the holy book in a different way. It would be nice to dispel Christianity of blame, but without Christianity these people wouldn't exist in the way they do.

Consider many denominations, and churches unafilated with denominations, small rogue churches don't require any training to become a "minister." Frankly theres not even one set word for a church leader: Pastor, Minister, Priest, Preacher are all used.

 

Don't think that Christians have never experienced anything besides Christianity.

I don't know why that's relevent. Once you believe in the Bible, and are acting on your interpretation of the Bible, then you are Christian.

It's relevant because you have often said taht Christians jsut get their views from their parents. I'm pointing out that many Christians didn't, and many who did, also lived by non-Christian standards for a while. So it's nost just them believing the only thing they have been taught.

 

It's not getting away with it, that implies no remorse, and a at!@#$%^&*ude that thinks "It's fine for me to keep sinning." Sure I'm going to keep sinning in some way, no one can stop, but are faith is based on grace, thankfulness, repentance, and an effort to change. And i never said homosexual have sinned more then me, I said we are the same, and we are BOTH continuing to sin. Don't take my saying "they don't know Jesus" as pride. I don't think of myself as better then them because I know Jesus, because as the bible says, being saved is nothing on our parts. It's pure grace and mercy on God's part. I havn't done anything special, and thus I can't think of myself as above them for beign saved. Most christians will tell you that they personally are the worst sinner they know, because in light of God's forgiveness, we become so much more aware of how bad we are.

'Getting away with it' was a poor way to explain what i meant. I understand that you regret your sins and don't intend to repeat them. However, due to the 'purity of heart' you possess, you are no longer equal in God's eyes with the un-forgiven sinner. You will go to heaven and the other guy will go to !@#$%^&*. Thus it is not equality from the moment you accept Jesus.

 

You merely believe that you deserve a better after-life for accepting Jesus. It's not pride, it's a kind of religious racism, where Christians get special treatment in the after-life, and non-Christians do not. You give homosexuals the option to join your special group, but only if they renounce what they are. They are excluded, as are people like me who cannot have faith.

Hmm, Im trying to decide whether or not I agree with you saying that once saved i am suprerior in God's eyes because God loves everyone. Whether or not you can say he has a special love for people accepting his son I donno... But anyway, it doesnt carry over into the humand view. Even if God views us that way, the human christians don't view ourselves as better. If anything our sin seems worse to us in light of the gift we are receiving. As to religious racism, racism is something you can not help. You are born one ethnicity, and that is that. Anyone has the opportunity to embrace Christianity, so I don't think it can be fairly related to racism. Maybe if people are born gay you could argue that it is racist in the sense that they didn't have a choice in their contradictory lifestyle to christianity, but i thought we concluded in our other topic that homosexuality (at least usually) isn't defined at birth/in your genes.

[2pac]

thunder prove that there is god, bible is a story just like other stories... there was a jesus prob but he didnt do anything amazing its what he said that made ppl make it more enhancing n !@#$%^&*.

 

Prove it my ds buddy, you can't u have no prove except what ur parents and bible told you...

[JDS]

ignorance is bliss, 2pac

[NBVegita]

thunder prove that there is god, bible is a story just like other stories... there was a jesus prob but he didnt do anything amazing its what he said that made ppl make it more enhancing n !@#$%^&*.

 

Prove it my ds buddy, you can't u have no prove except what ur parents and bible told you...

 

That is a rhetorical argument as you have no proof that there is no god.

[ThunderJam]

Like NB said, the existence of God can not be proven either positively or negatively unfortunately. This topic has gone thru that before 2pac, don't jump in late in the game without knowing whats happened.

[2pac]

thunder!@#$%^&*! don't make me come to ds and spank you <_<

[AstroProdigy]

Hmm' date=' Im trying to decide whether or not I agree with you saying that once saved i am suprerior in God's eyes because God loves everyone. Whether or not you can say he has a special love for people accepting his son I donno... But anyway, it doesnt carry over into the humand view. Even if God views us that way, the human christians don't view ourselves as better. If anything our sin seems worse to us in light of the gift we are receiving. As to religious racism, racism is something you can not help. You are born one ethnicity, and that is that. Anyone has the opportunity to embrace Christianity, so I don't think it can be fairly related to racism. Maybe if people are born gay you could argue that it is racist in the sense that they didn't have a choice in their contradictory lifestyle to christianity, but i thought we concluded in our other topic that homosexuality (at least usually) isn't defined at birth/in your genes.[/quote']

 

So if a kid thinks his parents favor him over his brother he won't think he's superior? We also never came to the conclusion that homosexuality isn't defined at birth/in your genes. Some of us made an unproved opinion that maybe we are all born bisexual and most of us are forced to become straight. Even if it's a choice would you say Jews, contradictory in lifestyle to Christianity need to have less rights? Why won't you admit to this?

 

Also, born again Christians are ones who were taught Christianity in childhood, ignored it for a while to have fun, and then re accepted the strict tenets of Christianity. These people DID have this hatred burned into their brains even if they ignored it for a while when it contradicted their own "sinning".

 

NBV: Without Christianity the strong organized base for gay hating would collapse. People would still hate homosexuals, but like racism it would be a personal idea that you aren't allowed to act on legally nor would you be able to get enough of a base to p!@#$%^&* anti-democratic legislation.

[NBVegita]

NBV: Without Christianity the strong organized base for gay hating would collapse. People would still hate homosexuals, but like racism it would be a personal idea that you aren't allowed to act on legally nor would you be able to get enough of a base to p!@#$%^&* anti-democratic legislation.

 

Notice the fact that it was illegal for blacks and women to vote, very anti-democratic legislation, with no correlation to religion. !@#$%^&* everything in the 60's was to even the "democratic legislation" for women and minorities. Religion wasn't used there either.

 

And legally if anything happens to a gay or lesbian it is 99% of the time a hate crime. A guy a knew was straight but bartended at a gay bar to get better tips. A drive by happened, where one of their windows got shot out incidentally, as it was a confirmed gang hit on a gang member walking the street, and it was labeled a hate crime simply because it was a gay bar.

[ThunderJam]

So if a kid thinks his parents favor him over his brother he won't think he's superior? We also never came to the conclusion that homosexuality isn't defined at birth/in your genes. Some of us made an unproved opinion that maybe we are all born bisexual and most of us are forced to become straight. Even if it's a choice would you say Jews, contradictory in lifestyle to Christianity need to have less rights? Why won't you admit to this?

Flawed analogy because there is nothing representing sin. In this case the kid has some reason he is being favored most likely, in Christians case, we are no better then anyone else, we havnt done anything to deserve mercy, we are just accepting it, and you can too. Im not sure what in the world you were asking about jews having less rights...

 

Also, born again Christians are ones who were taught Christianity in childhood, ignored it for a while to have fun, and then re accepted the strict tenets of Christianity. These people DID have this hatred burned into their brains even if they ignored it for a while when it contradicted their own "sinning".

Uhm no thats not what born-again means lol. Born again is coined from a passage in the bible that relates accepting christ to being physically born. It says something like as you were born of your mother's womb in the body, thus you are born with water into the spirit. Born again just means you believe Jeus died for and paid for your sins, allowed you to start from a clean slate. A clean slate being sort of like a new chance at life, aka being born again.

[AstroProdigy]

Notice the fact that it was illegal for blacks and women to vote, very anti-democratic legislation, with no correlation to religion. !@#$%^&* everything in the 60's was to even the "democratic legislation" for women and minorities. Religion wasn't used there either.

 

And legally if anything happens to a gay or lesbian it is 99% of the time a hate crime. A guy a knew was straight but bartended at a gay bar to get better tips. A drive by happened, where one of their windows got shot out incidentally, as it was a confirmed gang hit on a gang member walking the street, and it was labeled a hate crime simply because it was a gay bar.

 

Wait what? Blacks and women voting had no correlation to religion? Religion was never used to say justify slavery? It was also never used to claim female inferiority? Well that's really news to me. The 60s were very "unchristian" times.

 

There is legislation NOW in 2007 that needs to be passed in order to protect gay people in the work place. Bush is guaranteed to veto it and it's almost impossible to win over enough Republicans to override it. They also don't have the right to marry or raise children in most places. I'm sure there's more, but these are the most famous examples.

 

Flawed analogy because there is nothing representing sin. In this case the kid has some reason he is being favored most likely' date=' in Christians case, we are no better then anyone else, we havnt done anything to deserve mercy, we are just accepting it, and you can too. Im not sure what in the world you were asking about jews having less rights...

 

Uhm no thats not what born-again means lol. Born again is coined from a passage in the bible that relates accepting christ to being physically born. It says something like as you were born of your mother's womb in the body, thus you are born with water into the spirit. Born again just means you believe Jeus died for and paid for your sins, allowed you to start from a clean slate. A clean slate being sort of like a new chance at life, aka being born again.[/quote']

Oh, but there is "sin" in the children too. All of the children "sin" too. They may not clean their room, or get trouble in school. That's the equivalent of "sin" and none of them are perfect. In Christians' case you have been Christians and that's why you deserve mercy. You wouldn't be talking about how you go to !@#$%^&* for not being a Christian if the opposite couldn't be true, that it gave you the chance to go to Heaven if you are one.

 

My example about Jews just goes to illustrate either the hypocrisy of your gay hating or the hate you have overall. The Jews aren't born Jews. It's not a race, it is a religion. Therefore, they can choose to live a Christian lifestyle and thus be saved and in the same way as homosexuals we should try to convert them rather than give them rights because Judaism would be a disease in the same way homosexuality is in your eyes. If you don't like the example of Jews because of their adherence to the Old Testament try Hindus. If that's what you believe then you stand for nothing this country stands for. Otherwise if you only apply it to homosexuals then it's obviously just you twisting the Bible to serve your own homophobia.

 

Alright well your example was of people who don't follow the word of God anymore after they turn into teens and then do again when they get older. Different word, same point.

Edited November 21, 2007 by AstroProdigy

[NBVegita]

Astro...homosexuals are protected in the work place. Notice how in big bold print it is stated that you cannot discriminate due to sexual orientation. In fact there have been many law suits for that. You can't force co-workers to respond the same to homosexuals, just as you can't force people to react the same to women.

 

Racism and sexism are not religious based.

 

As for adoption, if an agency doesn't see fit they don't have to place a child. Being there have been studies showing that both a male and female presence in the home is greatly beneficial to a child's development, of course its going to be difficult for them to adopt kids. As for laws against it, I guess it's no less cons!@#$%^&*utional than banning people from being able to own guns.

 

Not saying that I support it, but there will always be something infringing on someones rights.

[Bak]

there have been studies showing that both a male and female presence in the home is greatly beneficial to a child's development

 

what studies?

[ThunderJam]

I'm not going to go spend my time finding do!@#$%^&*entation of studies for you... but

 

Consider the established difference having divorced parents make. There have been many studies that show having your parents together helps you develop better than having them be split. What is the actual part of the split that affects the child however? The absence of one of the two roles: mother or father. You hear of children of divorced parents saying they needed a father figure or a mother figure more in their lives. How could this not hold true into homosexual parents?

[Bak]

With divorced parents, they often compete for who can take care of the kids and might even use the kids to get back at the other parent. Also, they have two parents but are only able to be with one at a time (the two parents don't live together anymore). Also, as you mentioned, there is a missing role (mother or father) that was there before the parents got divorced. How much do each of these contribute to the development of children is not something we can debate to settle; you have to actually conduct research studies.

 

If one is not willing to find the sources for the statements one makes, then he or she is saying very little. Studies show that homosexual parents are better than heterosexual ones. Studies show that drinking coffee as a kid makes you taller. Studies show that people prefer lemons to apples. Unless I tell you what studies I'm talking about I'm not really saying anything at all, and in fact, could even be making things up (although probably based on possibly flawed intuition).

[ThunderJam]

With divorced parents, they often compete for who can take care of the kids and might even use the kids to get back at the other parent. Also, they have two parents but are only able to be with one at a time (the two parents don't live together anymore). Also, as you mentioned, there is a missing role (mother or father) that was there before the parents got divorced. How much do each of these contribute to the development of children is not something we can debate to settle; you have to actually conduct research studies.

 

If one is not willing to find the sources for the statements one makes, then he or she is saying very little. Studies show that homosexual parents are better than heterosexual ones. Studies show that drinking coffee as a kid makes you taller. Studies show that people prefer lemons to apples. Unless I tell you what studies I'm talking about I'm not really saying anything at all, and in fact, could even be making things up (although probably based on possibly flawed intuition).

Not all divorced parents split time with the kids. Often they never deal with one of the parents again. You really havn't heard of research showing people without one of their parent figures have a harder time in life?

 

As to backing up statments with proof, it wasn't my statement about the development of children, it was NBV's.

[AstroProdigy]

Astro...homosexuals are protected in the work place. Notice how in big bold print it is stated that you cannot discriminate due to sexual orientation. In fact there have been many law suits for that. You can't force co-workers to respond the same to homosexuals, just as you can't force people to react the same to women.

 

Racism and sexism are not religious based.

 

As for adoption, if an agency doesn't see fit they don't have to place a child. Being there have been studies showing that both a male and female presence in the home is greatly beneficial to a child's development, of course its going to be difficult for them to adopt kids. As for laws against it, I guess it's no less cons!@#$%^&*utional than banning people from being able to own guns.

 

Not saying that I support it, but there will always be something infringing on someones rights.

 

http://www.nolo.com/article.cfm/objectId/E...11/259/283/ART/

There is no law preventing discrimination in the workplace based on sexual orientation by private employers. That legislation is currently gearing up to be vetoed by the president and then be unable to override the veto with strong Republican opposition.

 

I never said racism and sexism are religious based. I said the bible has been used to justify it the same way it's used to justify homophobia.

 

There are laws in certain states limiting adoption by homosexuals. Florida is a notable example of this. If it was just the choice of the adoption agencies this wouldn't be a problem. The gun analogy is pretty irrelevant here.

 

Saying "there will always be something infringing on someone's rights" is no excuse to give up.

 

Not all divorced parents split time with the kids. Often they never deal with one of the parents again. You really havn't heard of research showing people without one of their parent figures have a harder time in life?

 

As to backing up statments with proof, it wasn't my statement about the development of children, it was NBV's.

The research shows that kids need to see a healthy relationship between their parents. The requirement of both a mother and father is pretty irrelevant except for the influences of peers who might tease that child. To that I say 1) The homophobic Christian parents who tell their kids that homosexuals are !@#$%^&*ed to eternal !@#$%^&*ation are breeding this teasing to a large extent and 2) Teasing seems bad to you when you're a kid, but it's actually something very healthy if you can get over it. As someone who was constantly teased for most of my childhood and teenage years I can tell you it's a great character building experience. Nothing teaches you empathy like teasing.

Edited November 22, 2007 by AstroProdigy