SeVeR Posted November 15, 2007 Report Posted November 15, 2007 Incredible, you accuse me of 'jumping' to the conclusion that God hates homosexuals, when you flat out ignored my reason for why people might think God hates homosexuals. God destroyed all the people in Sodom and Gamorra, and the popularly held belief is that this was for homosexual acts (among other things). Therefore it is a sin to be homosexual. Can't you see how some people would interpret this as a bloody good reason to hate homosexuals? The fact that THEIR GOD saw fit to wipe them out? Any revelations coming your way? Ignoring someones reason for coming to a conclusion and then accusing them of jumping to that conclusion isn't the best way to prove what you've been trying to prove in your last few posts.
WongKonPow Posted November 16, 2007 Report Posted November 16, 2007 lol said I wouldn't post again, but I just had to pose a friendly argument, aka i'm just pointing something out that I have learned, don't yell at me and go on hating me. A lot of christians use Sodom and Gomorrah as an argument against homosexuality, by saying that God destroyed those two cities for being gay. However, some people like myself (i.e. non bigots, but are also christians), say that some information on Sodom and Gomorrah shows that they weren't just largely homosexual, but they were an incredibly selfish economy, they were extremely rich, but refused to help the struggling towns nearby aka much like america's economy right now, the rich stay rich, the poor stay poor. So that is another reason why God destroyed those two cities. Note: this is only something that has been passed on to me, I have no way of knowing if it's true, and I'm not stating it as fact. Just throwing it out there as something to think about. Christians are often foolish in there pursuits of forcing beliefs on people, which never works, as history has shown.
JDS Posted November 16, 2007 Report Posted November 16, 2007 yea wong kon, sodom and gomorrah were indeed all very rich and all very selfish, gambling , gay, and pros!@#$%^&*ute filled nation. But all of those are human attributes, and things humans have created. To say a greater power destroyed us for being human is a very ignorant thing to believe
Bak Posted November 16, 2007 Report Posted November 16, 2007 no it's not. it's human to sin; why else would god "destroy" anyone?
JDS Posted November 16, 2007 Report Posted November 16, 2007 its human to have free choice and will, a god who takes that away from you is no god of mine
NBVegita Posted November 16, 2007 Report Posted November 16, 2007 As stated in a prior posts, none of your reasonings would lead a normal person, with no prior dislike/hate of homosexuals to believe that their god hates homosexuals. I exclude zealots and people who have prior dislike/hatred for homosexuals. And for those who would try to hide behind their faith, their faith is merely and excuse for the bigotry, not the cause. God destroyed all the people in Sodom and Gamorra, and the popularly held belief is that this was for homosexual acts (among other things). Therefore it is a sin to be homosexual. Can't you see how some people would interpret this as a bloody good reason to hate homosexuals? The fact that THEIR GOD saw fit to wipe them out? Actually the bit about homosexuality is just the most publicized part used by those who dislike homosexuality to try to prove that their god destroyed people for it. People of the city committed just about every deadly sin there was and you, along with these people, are trying to say that it was simply or mostly due to homosexuality, not the murder, theivery, adultry, blasphemy, ect. that the city was wiped out? I would say that is a pretty unfounded jump to a pretty bad conclusion.
ThunderJam Posted November 16, 2007 Author Report Posted November 16, 2007 (edited) Incredible, you accuse me of 'jumping' to the conclusion that God hates homosexuals, when you flat out ignored my reason for why people might think God hates homosexuals. God destroyed all the people in Sodom and Gamorra, and the popularly held belief is that this was for homosexual acts (among other things). Therefore it is a sin to be homosexual. Can't you see how some people would interpret this as a bloody good reason to hate homosexuals? The fact that THEIR GOD saw fit to wipe them out? Any revelations coming your way? Ignoring someones reason for coming to a conclusion and then accusing them of jumping to that conclusion isn't the best way to prove what you've been trying to prove in your last few posts.1) Sodom and Gomorrah was for more then homosexuality, but yes that was one of the reasons. I guess we could think of them like Las Vegas x 100. The most immoral place on earth.2) If we are going to use biblical references, hes done more then destroy sodom and gomorah, what about the flood? That was everyoen on earth except for one extended family. However you gotta look at it this way (Since we are using biblical sources)... He created us to reflect him. He is perfect, we were made to be perfect. Adam and Eve started the cycle of sin, and since then mankind has gone downhill. We were once inherently good, and now inherently bad. No one lives up to God's standards, we lie, cheat, lust, and commit other sins on a daily basis. In destroying a particular fallen group of people God was helping restor mankind to what is was designed to be. And don't just classify him as a wrathful god (he is, but thats one side of his duality), but also as a merciful God. We could ALL go to !@#$%^&* for turning to sin (because sin can not be in God's presence, therefore we can not go to heaven as sinners), but he provided away out of that through Jesus. The one person who didn't fall to sin, paid for our sin. Simply saying he is wrathful and destroyed sodom and gomorah for homosexuality among other things is leaving out an essential part of the story. Edited November 16, 2007 by ThunderJam
SeVeR Posted November 17, 2007 Report Posted November 17, 2007 Great points [/sarcasm], pity i need to quote myself now: God destroyed all the people in Sodom and Gamorra, and the popularly held belief is that this was for homosexual acts (among other things). The reason i put "among other things" is because i knew you'd use the irrelevent argument that there are other sins that may have made a bigger impact on God's wrath. The reason it's irrelevent is because it's enough that homosexuality is one of the sins. My simple goal was to establish homosexuality as a Christian sin, and i did that. Thanks for pointing out something that i obviously already knew when i considered Sodom and Gamorra (read the quoted text again if you're confused). You are both truly inane and inept. He created us to reflect him [1]. He is perfect[2], we were made to be perfect[3]. Adam and Eve started the cycle of sin[4], and since then mankind has gone downhill[5]. We were once inherently good[6], and now inherently bad[7]. No one lives up to God's standards[8], we lie, cheat, lust, and commit other sins on a daily basis. In destroying a particular fallen group of people [9]God was helping restor mankind to what is was designed to be[10]. And don't just classify him as a wrathful god (he is, but thats one side of his duality), but also as a merciful God[11]. We could ALL go to !@#$%^&* for turning to sin [12](because sin can not be in God's presence[13], therefore we can not go to heaven as sinners[14]), but he provided away out of that through Jesus[15]. The one person who didn't fall to sin[16], paid for our sin[17]. Simply saying he is wrathful and destroyed sodom and gomorah for homosexuality among other things is leaving out an essential part of the story[18]. In case you're wondering, the numbers i placed into your text are to follow certain points that are uncertain and without proof. I cannot argue with someone who makes so many !@#$%^&*umptions. Even from a biblical perspective, what you've said appears to be meaningless to this argument. Sinners go to !@#$%^&*, God sends them there, what's your point? I've established that homosexuality is a sin, God sends them to !@#$%^&*. As stated in a prior posts, none of your reasonings would lead a normal person, with no prior dislike/hate of homosexuals to believe that their god hates homosexuals. I exclude zealots and people who have prior dislike/hatred for homosexuals. If you can't see how worshipping a God that sends homosexuals to !@#$%^&* is going to breed hatred for homosexuals among followers of that God, then this discussion is already over. I'm not saying that all Christians are homophobes, i'm not even saying Christians are taught to hate homosexuals, i'm saying it's more than easy to intepret the Bible in a way where homosexuals are killed over and over again in the firery depths of !@#$%^&* thanks to a homophobic God.
NBVegita Posted November 17, 2007 Report Posted November 17, 2007 But using that same argument, you could extend and say that the Christian god hates people who have premarital sex, people who sleep with multiple partners, people who are greedy, hates people who are lazy, people who lust, people who have or do get angry, people who have exuberant pride any anyone who has ever envied someone. If you use the conclusion that because the Christian god sent a group of people to !@#$%^&*, for all of the deadly sins, and then minor sins (which homosexuality would fall under I suppose), and by doing that it can breed hate for homosexuals, well then I say that its not bigotry as Christians would then hate everyone. The Christian god has condemned hundreds of thousands of people to eternal !@#$%^&*ation for each of the sins listed above, and I think that would breed more hatred than an act, included with many other more serious sins, which destroyed one !@#$%^&*ed city and a near by city accidentally. I guess I didn't figure I had to get that specific, but do you now, in any capacity, see how ridiculous the claim you are making is? This was one of the most vile cities ever known. !@#$%^&* the rich used to give money to the poor, and then tell their vendors not to accept it, so then the poor would gain hope, at actually having money to eat or get shelter, and then they would starve to death because no one would take it. Then once they died the rich would take the money off their bodies and laugh about it. It was said that for sport they would tie an unwilling woman down and have an animal ravish her body. I mean I could go on for ages. I would say such a minor infraction as homosexuality would not cause an interpretation that god hates homosexuality, and ASSS them to !@#$%^&*. (it wouldn't be god killing them over and over again, it would be satan). But if you still insist that such a minor infraction, couple with such serious infractions would cause hatred for homosexuality, then I say that Christians have a much stronger hate for the rest of us, as I don't know a single person alive who is not guilty of multiple offenses of multiple deadly sins, whom don't even know what a confessional looks like, and being that is the only way to repent for these deadly sins, is automatically destined to eternal !@#$%^&*ation. Even if you claim to be righteous, someone in your bloodline wasn't. "You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me," Upon your conclusion: The Christian God, and all of the followers worshiping the Christian God hate us all.
ThunderJam Posted November 17, 2007 Author Report Posted November 17, 2007 He created us to reflect him [1]. He is perfect[2], we were made to be perfect[3]. Adam and Eve started the cycle of sin[4], and since then mankind has gone downhill[5]. We were once inherently good[6], and now inherently bad[7]. No one lives up to God's standards[8], we lie, cheat, lust, and commit other sins on a daily basis. In destroying a particular fallen group of people [9]God was helping restor mankind to what is was designed to be[10]. And don't just classify him as a wrathful god (he is, but thats one side of his duality), but also as a merciful God[11]. We could ALL go to !@#$%^&* for turning to sin [12](because sin can not be in God's presence[13], therefore we can not go to heaven as sinners[14]), but he provided away out of that through Jesus[15]. The one person who didn't fall to sin[16], paid for our sin[17]. Simply saying he is wrathful and destroyed sodom and gomorah for homosexuality among other things is leaving out an essential part of the story[18]. In case you're wondering, the numbers i placed into your text are to follow certain points that are uncertain and without proof. I cannot argue with someone who makes so many !@#$%^&*umptions. Even from a biblical perspective, what you've said appears to be meaningless to this argument. Sinners go to !@#$%^&*, God sends them there, what's your point? I've established that homosexuality is a sin, God sends them to !@#$%^&*. I don't know how you say that stuff is unsupported by the Bible. 1. Genesis says "Then God said, Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and..."2-3. If you read the Bible and you only get one thing out of it, it should be that it portrays God as Holy/perfect. And we were made in his likeness, therefore we were made to be inherently good.4. You disagree with Adam and Eve started the cycle of sin? If we are looking at this biblically, please tell me what PREVIOUS humans could have started the cycle? Genesis 3. 5. I can't even begin on this. From a biblical perspective today's world is awful. Sex/Lust is 1/1000 of the story, and it's role in society alone should justify what I said. 6-7. Already said, made in God's image which is perfect (aka we were inherently good). After the first sin God set in motion troubles that mankind would have to endure because we had literally "fallen." 7. NO ONE LIVES UP TO GODS STANDARDS? You think thats unsupported? Wow, "All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God" (Romans 3:23). I can't even imagine how you think thats unsupported. It defines the entire neces!@#$%^&*y of Jesus coming to earth. Christianity would be nothing if that was unsupported. 9-10. Ok good job, one of these so called "un-supported" statements you can fairly say is my interpretation, but is also an interpretation widely held by many bible scholars and so on. 11. Well if restoring hope to get to heaven through Jesus isn't being merciful when we deserve to never be in God's presence due to our sin.. if thats not mercy I donno what is. 12. Your denying that sin results in going to !@#$%^&*? Or are you denying that "WE ALL" should go to !@#$%^&* for our sin, and thus saying that not everyone sins? Either way seems absurd to me since we are looking at this biblically. You can't even deny that sins = reason to go to !@#$%^&*. And I previously quoted "ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Keyword all. 13. Ok i can't think of a particular verse that says this verbatim, and after writing this much already im getting too lazy to search for verses that i don't know off the top of my head. 14. We cannot go to heaven as sinners? I donno how you can debate this, again it defines why we need Jesus and is a pillar of the Christian faith. 15-16. He didn't provide a way to heaven thru Jesus? I can understand you disagreeing with saying Jesus is the savior if your not Christian, but we are looking at this biblically and your saying its unclear or unsupported. 18. Already talked abotu this. How this is irrelevent to the argument: I'm outlining what he has done for us, how we were intended to be, how far we have deviated from what we were designed for, and how he has still provided us a way to get back to his presence despite how far we've messed up. Basically all the reasons he has to despise us. We've given up everything we were made for, and even when he graciously provides a way to make up for it, we in our pride reject the offer and continue in our sin. If that doesn't give him reason to destory us, be it in Sodom and Gomorah or the flood, what does? After all, if we are looking at this biblically, we are all going to endure 100x worse where we are heading anyway: !@#$%^&*. Say if you head a toy company, and you design hundreds of thousands of what become best selling childrens toys. Only to realize once theyve been purchases that there is a critical flaw in them. They have some effect that negatively affects the children. They've "deviated from what they were designed to be." What do you do? If it's critical to the children, you recall the toys. Trash them, make new ones without the defect and re-issue them. Is this so different that God and us? How/Why god is opposed to homosexuality among other sins is for this reason.
Bak Posted November 17, 2007 Report Posted November 17, 2007 "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone!" ~The Bible jesus is pretty clear that the old punishment system (stoning adulterers) from the old testament is a load of crap. Thus, though extension, we are to think that killing homos as in the old testament is also a load of crap. thus, Christians who attack or kill homoASSS go to !@#$%^&* (at least from a Catholic perspective; protestants seem to believe that it doesn't matter at all what you do on earth in terms of going to heaven, but I've ranted on that enough in other topics).
Bak Posted November 17, 2007 Report Posted November 17, 2007 But yeah, you're right the gays get to go to !@#$%^&* too! (and perhaps get further tormented by the people who killed them?) also, why can't i edit my post? lame
ThunderJam Posted November 17, 2007 Author Report Posted November 17, 2007 "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone!" ~The Bible jesus is pretty clear that the old punishment system (stoning adulterers) from the old testament is a load of crap. Thus, though extension, we are to think that killing homos as in the old testament is also a load of crap. thus, Christians who attack or kill homoASSS go to !@#$%^&* (at least from a Catholic perspective; protestants seem to believe that it doesn't matter at all what you do on earth in terms of going to heaven, but I've ranted on that enough in other topics).Oh yea i totally agree with you bak. Lol "homoASSS"
SeVeR Posted November 17, 2007 Report Posted November 17, 2007 (edited) NBV:Upon your conclusion: The Christian God, and all of the followers worshiping the Christian God hate us all. Oh for Christ sake... you don't even deserve a response. It seems that every post i have to defend my position by saying "i don't think all Christians are homophobes, i don't think the Church teaches people to hate gays". Until you acknowledge this simple premise, i'm going to put off replying to the rest of your post. Edited November 17, 2007 by SeVeR
SeVeR Posted November 17, 2007 Report Posted November 17, 2007 (edited) TJ: I don't know how you say that stuff is unsupported by the Bible I'm sorry you wasted your time. I meant it's unsupported factually, given that the Bible is devoid of facts. How this is irrelevent to the argument: I'm outlining what he has done for us, how we were intended to be, how far we have deviated from what we were designed for, and how he has still provided us a way to get back to his presence despite how far we've messed up. Basically all the reasons he has to despise us. We've given up everything we were made for, and even when he graciously provides a way to make up for it, we in our pride reject the offer and continue in our sin. If that doesn't give him reason to destory us, be it in Sodom and Gomorah or the flood, what does? After all, if we are looking at this biblically, we are all going to endure 100x worse where we are heading anyway: !@#$%^&*. So basically you're telling me that homosexuals have deviated from God's plan, are proud to do so, are in sin, and that this gives God reason to destroy them. So biblically speaking what can i say other than: i agree. Thus i still don't see how you've made a counter-argument here. They've "deviated from what they were designed to be." What do you do? If it's critical to the children, you recall the toys. Trash them, make new ones without the defect and re-issue them. So you're comparing homosexuals to flawed toys that should be destroyed or fixed? I really don't see your point. Edited November 17, 2007 by SeVeR
ThunderJam Posted November 17, 2007 Author Report Posted November 17, 2007 Would u actually quote a person plz, and not just a plain quote cuz its confusing as crap to figure out who you were referring to.
SeVeR Posted November 17, 2007 Report Posted November 17, 2007 you both got here insanely fast... editted previous posts with "name-tags"
NBVegita Posted November 17, 2007 Report Posted November 17, 2007 i don't think all Christians are homophobes, i don't think the Church teaches people to hate gaysIf you can't see how worshipping a God that sends homosexuals to !@#$%^&* is going to breed hatred for homosexuals among followers of that God, then this discussion is already over. A) I never said you did. You are stating that the teaching of the church and bible are breeding hatred for homosexuality, which is equivalent to teaching people to hate homosexuals. My point is simple, you could replace "homosexuals" with any sin: "If you can't see how worshipping a God that sends sloths to !@#$%^&* is going to breed hatred for sloths among followers of that God, then this discussion is already over.""If you can't see how worshipping a God that sends greedy people to !@#$%^&* is going to breed hatred for greedy people among followers of that God, then this discussion is already over""If you can't see how worshipping a God that sends adulterers to !@#$%^&* is going to breed hatred for adulterers among followers of that God, then this discussion is already over." So upon your theory, you can theorize that:"worshipping a God that sends [insert sin] to !@#$%^&* is going to breed hatred for [insert sin] among followers of that God" Based on the fact that the majority of Christians, at least that I can personally contest to, do not "hate" anyone for any of the seven deadlies, in fact pride is a rather well thought of sin, it would be a terrible conclusion that because homosexuality is a sin, a minor one at that, it would "breed hatred for homosexuals".* I just don't know how much simpler I can get. * This does exclude zealots and religious "fanatics" which are not of the norm in talking about religion.
SeVeR Posted November 17, 2007 Report Posted November 17, 2007 (edited) You are stating that the teaching of the church and bible are breeding hatred for homosexuality, which is equivalent to teaching people to hate homosexuals. I'm saying the Bible teaches us that God persecutes homosexuals and sends them to !@#$%^&*. The Bible then teaches that God is perfect in every way. Thus Christianity, if interpretted in one of many possible ways , can lead to Christians wishing to persecute homosexuals in order to emulate God's perfection. I define this as hatred, albeit under a veil of righteousness. The church is not directly teaching people to hate homosexuals, it doesn't say "hate homos" anywhere. But the evidence from the Bible, the nature of religion itself, and a certain interpretation of the Bible certainly are a recipe for hatred, "If you can't see how worshipping a God that sends sloths to !@#$%^&* is going to breed hatred for sloths among followers of that God, then this discussion is already over.""If you can't see how worshipping a God that sends greedy people to !@#$%^&* is going to breed hatred for greedy people among followers of that God, then this discussion is already over""If you can't see how worshipping a God that sends adulterers to !@#$%^&* is going to breed hatred for adulterers among followers of that God, then this discussion is already over." And? The only difference i see is with the ability to identify or prove sloth, adultery and greed. When is someone being greedy or lazy? The line is difficult to draw. Homosexuality is clear cut, you either engage in homosexual acts or you don't. However, let me say one thing with certainty: If sloth or greed is identified and proven in someone, then i would fully expect the same levels of hatred to emerge within Christians as with homosexuality. For clarity i will once again state that this is not the case for all Christians. "worshipping a God that sends [insert sin] to !@#$%^&* is going to breed hatred for [insert sin] among followers of that God" Now you're getting it. Based on the fact that the majority of Christians, at least that I can personally contest to, do not "hate" anyone for any of the seven deadlies, in fact pride is a rather well thought of sin, it would be a terrible conclusion that because homosexuality is a sin, a minor one at that, it would "breed hatred for homosexuals".* Other than the Christian's ability to identify the sin (greed and sloth being hard to identify), there is another attribute that will affect the levels of hatred. Naturally, our hatred is directed at those who are different to ourselves. Thus pride, greed, gluttony and sloth are very human characteristics, and every man, woman and child could interpret themselves as having committed these sins. Sexuality is a mutually exclusive attribute for the most part: Gay or straight. So hatred is based on how much one can !@#$%^&*ociate the topic of hatred with the person to be hated, but it's also based on how much it cannot be !@#$%^&*ociated with the self. If these criteria are met with sloth or greed as much as with homosexuality, then the level of hatred should be no different. Edited November 17, 2007 by SeVeR
AstroProdigy Posted November 17, 2007 Report Posted November 17, 2007 Say if you head a toy company' date=' and you design hundreds of thousands of what become best selling childrens toys. Only to realize once theyve been purchases that there is a critical flaw in them. They have some effect that negatively affects the children. They've "deviated from what they were designed to be." What do you do? If it's critical to the children, you recall the toys. Trash them, make new ones without the defect and re-issue them. Is this so different that God and us? How/Why god is opposed to homosexuality among other sins is for this reason.[/quote']Wow you really proved that you aren't bigoted towards homosexuals using your religion in the other thread with this one. I bet if I was one of your conservative buddies in real life I'd hear you talking about putting all gays on an island and nuking it or something as such. NBV:You're right. Adults with no current hatred for homosexuals will not become so with Christianity. They are just too developed mentally so most will not change their views. What about the kids though? If you're a kid and your parents tell you gays are sinful and are going to !@#$%^&*, then your priest tells you the same thing and that !@#$%^&* befalls murderers, thieves, rapists, oh and HOMOSEXUALS, and your teachers aren't even allowed to tell you their opinions for fear of prosecution, but some conservative ones and the private school ones will tell you it's evil you honestly don't think you probably will turn into a gay hating bigot? We are breeding the next generation of bigots right now by allowing the muddling up of the homosexuality debate with the !@#$%^&* that a generation of home schooled and then Christian university educated lawyers have ardently fought for.
ThunderJam Posted November 17, 2007 Author Report Posted November 17, 2007 (edited) You are stating that the teaching of the church and bible are breeding hatred for homosexuality, which is equivalent to teaching people to hate homosexuals. I'm saying the Bible teaches us that God persecutes homosexuals and sends them to !@#$%^&*. The Bible then teaches that God is perfect in every way. Thus Christianity, if interpretted in one of many possible ways , can lead to Christians wishing to persecute homosexuals in order to emulate God's perfection. I define this as hatred, albeit under a veil of righteousness.Ok i actually think a lot of this debate comes down to this, and im a little disapointed in myself that I didn't think to bring this up earlier. Christians think that sin can be helped right? Thats why Jesus came, so we can do away with our sin. We are saying homosexuality is a sin, and thus it follows the same rules. It can end, it can be forgiven and paid for by God's son. Don't say people don't just change from gay to straight, because it does happen. People renounce their homosexuality all the time, I've seen flyers passed around my public school abotu organizations of ex-gays that are willing to talk to teens who consider themselves gay. Obvious gay people can change, and from a religious perspective, their sin can be forgiven. As a christian, I can not hate a gay person as a sinner, because I am a sinner too. The Bible says to remove the plank from your own eye before you try to remove the speck from your friends. Or Jesus said about a women being persecuted for adultery "Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone upon her." For this reason, I can't look down upon homosexuals or persecute them, because just as much as their sin condemns them, I and condemned for my own sins. We are together in our sin, but I can hope that they come clean of it and let Jesus pay for it. This is where "love your neighbor" comes in. Yes they've sinned, they are condemned to !@#$%^&*, but so am I, so instead of hating, hope and pray that maybe they can experience mercy that I have. Does that make some sense, even if your not Christian, can you understand my viewpoint better this way? Edited November 17, 2007 by ThunderJam
AstroProdigy Posted November 18, 2007 Report Posted November 18, 2007 It's called going back in the closet. If people constantly bombard you with threats of eternal !@#$%^&*ation you can do it. If you're bisexual it's easier because you can just stay on the straight side. I clearly understand your viewpoint now. It is a viewpoint utterly dominated by what your preacher tells you. Congratulations on being a patsy. Talking about turning homosexuals straight to "fix" them is just as bigoted as talking about turning Jews into Christians to "fix" them. I'm not sure how you still don't understand how this can into hate, but i guess ignorance is bliss.
ThunderJam Posted November 18, 2007 Author Report Posted November 18, 2007 It's called going back in the closet. If people constantly bombard you with threats of eternal !@#$%^&*ation you can do it. If you're bisexual it's easier because you can just stay on the straight side. I clearly understand your viewpoint now. It is a viewpoint utterly dominated by what your preacher tells you. Congratulations on being a patsy. Talking about turning homosexuals straight to "fix" them is just as bigoted as talking about turning Jews into Christians to "fix" them. I'm not sure how you still don't understand how this can into hate, but i guess ignorance is bliss.Become straight: We had an entire thread devoted to debating the existence of a "gay gene." The general consensus was that there is no such thing, and orientation is mainly determined by situations in your upbrining and such. If thats the case that would me it is not necesarily permanent. They were born straight, and became gay, why can't it go back? And theres plenty of people who would tell you they genuinly went frmo being gay to straight, and im not just talking about christians who would say it to back up their faith. As to being dominated by preacher, how you can conclude that is beyond me. The only references I made to anything last post were straight to the bible. Theres not a shred of evidence at all that points to a preacher. Oh and jews can become christians, its simply a person with jewish heritage who believes in Jesus. Something wrong with that? Your last sentence is the only sentence in your post that I believe has some actual value. You're correct I think this can be turned to hate in some situations. My point is that the Bible is not instructing us to hate, rather the people that are hateful are being influenced by a rogue preacher who has strange interpretations of the bible. Then again, if the congregation can not draw the correct meaning from the Bible on their own, but rather listen only to their preacher, then maybe they shouldn't be called Christians anyway.
NBVegita Posted November 18, 2007 Report Posted November 18, 2007 I don't have time to address sever as its late, but as for astro, I do agree that if the parents tell their children something is a sin, they will think it is bad. I don't think its the religion that actually has the influence on the children, I think it is the parents. Furthermore they are taught about all of the sins, yet as you get older, you find that you encounter greed, lust, gluttony, ect, in your personal life. So eventually you phase those out as being such bad items because you can relate to them. I think what breeds a dislike/hatred for homosexuality is the fact that a lot of people never feel that in their lives. People who are self conscious always try to point out the flaws in others. Well when you commit most of the sins in the bible yourself, you have to try to pick on the few that cannot be turned on to you. Unfortunately homosexuality is one of the few sins in the bible that isn't illegal, or committed by the masses on a daily basis. My entire thesis from the beginning is that adults simply use religion as an excuse for pointing out the "flaws" in fellow human beings. The most influential people in a child's life are his/her parents. So no matter what a priest tells you, if your parents tell you the opposite, most children will listen to their parents. Part of the bigotry stems from the !@#$%^&*ociation of homosexuals with aids and other std's. Another issue ( I studied for a minor in pysch in college) is that a large portion of men admit to having some homosexual feelings or thoughts throughout their lives. This is over compensated by presenting a gay-bashing mentality so as to ensure that people won't !@#$%^&*ociate you with homosexuals. It's simply easier to admit to hating gays because of your religion than it is to admit that it makes you feel awkward that you've had homosexual feelings.
SeVeR Posted November 18, 2007 Report Posted November 18, 2007 We are saying homosexuality is a sin, and thus it follows the same rules. It can end, it can be forgiven and paid for by God's son... ...I've seen flyers passed around my public school abotu organizations of ex-gays that are willing to talk to teens who consider themselves gay. Obvious gay people can change, and from a religious perspective, their sin can be forgiven... As a christian, I can not hate a gay person as a sinner, because I am a sinner too. The Bible says to remove the plank from your own eye before you try to remove the speck from your friends. Or Jesus said about a women being persecuted for adultery "Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone upon her." For this reason, I can't look down upon homosexuals or persecute them, because just as much as their sin condemns them, I and condemned for my own sins. We are together in our sin, but I can hope that they come clean of it and let Jesus pay for it. This is where "love your neighbor" comes in. Yes they've sinned, they are condemned to !@#$%^&*, but so am I, so instead of hating, hope and pray that maybe they can experience mercy that I have. I'm glad you admit that homosexuality is a Christian sin. I'm not denying that gay people can change to straight, although this can go both ways and straight can become gay. It wasn't really my point anyway, sexuality is clear cut in that at any particular point in time you're gay or straight, i.e. you can never be both (for the most part). Again though, i don't really see the point of discussing this. Basically what you seem to be saying is: "I have sinned, but my faith in Jesus means i have gotten away with it. The homosexuals have also sinned, but they don't have faith in Jesus and are therefore going to !@#$%^&*". Secondly, "The homosexuals have sinned, but they have sinned far more than me. They are also proud of their sins, continue to sin, and even though they know about Jesus, they reject him, unlike me" Is this accurate? I don't see how you can get equality from this. You're correct I think this can be turned to hate in some situations. My point is that the Bible is not instructing us to hate, rather the people that are hateful are being influenced by a rogue preacher who has strange interpretations of the bible. Then again, if the congregation can not draw the correct meaning from the Bible on their own, but rather listen only to their preacher, then maybe they shouldn't be called Christians anyway. So you admit that the Bible can be used and understood by Christians to create hate against homosexuals. It certainly is nice to reject people who accept this homophbic at!@#$%^&*ude as non-Christians. I'm sure you reject the abortion killers, or maybe even the Baptists, depending on how politically correct they are being. The sad point is, that you all worship from the same book, and therefore one interpretation cannot exist without all the others. Christianity is the cause, as without Christianity they wouldn't exist. I do agree that if the parents tell their children something is a sin, they will think it is bad. I don't think its the religion that actually has the influence on the children, I think it is the parents. Furthermore they are taught about all of the sins, yet as you get older, you find that you encounter greed, lust, gluttony, ect, in your personal life. So eventually you phase those out as being such bad items because you can relate to them. Would you say that many adults have the mental capacity of children? Would you even go so far as to say that religion can sometimes be the cause of a lack of education? I've never seen such a poor grasp of the English language as i have with the Christians i've debated with over the years (obviously not universal, before someone bites my head off). You're dissociating homophobia from the justification for it. Homophobic at!@#$%^&*udes find a sanctuary in religion. It can fester and amplify within that sanctuary. Homosexuality, being a Christian sin, can undoubtedly be the initial cause aswell. All religions include people who seek to emulate God's perfection by persecuting sinners. Thus it is clear that Christianity will be the cause of hatred for homosexuals among some of it's followers. Do you think Christianity isn't the cause of the abortion doctor killers? It's a little specific don't you think? Religion is passed down by parents, and so are all the ideas that come with it. It's naive to think that these related ideas, such as homophobia, have nothing to do with the religion. They have to come from somewhere.
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