John Paul II becoming a Saint?

[ThunderJam]

I read an article about a week or two ago, but I donno what happened to it so I can't quote it...

 

Basically in the struggle to make John Paul II a saint, some catholic church-sponsored group made a website to promote the idea. The site includes a 24/7 live video feed from his grave because I guess to become a saint you need to have two (i think, im not catholic) miracles attributed to you even after your dead. If you guys heard about this image of the pope waving in a bonfire thing, maybe they'll end up counting that, who knows.

 

ANYWAY, the site focuses on asking people for money to aid the process. Saying that the more funding they have they should be able to make him a saint more easily. That sound like a load of crap to any of you? Because it does to me lol. Why do you need money to have a bunch of elders give John Paul II their approval to become a saint? Or what doesn money have to do with him "Creating a miracle from beyond the grave?"

 

Kind of reminded me of selling indulgences in the middle ages. If your not familiar with what im talking about, the catholic church actually said people could "Buy" tickets to basically rid their sins and give them passage to heaven, and this is when the Protestant reformation started with Martin Luther and all that. As if money is what it takes to get to heaven. Kinda startles me that tons people funnel money into this website in the same kind of mindset. What in the world can their money be accomplishing?

Edited October 16, 2007 by ThunderJam

[Bak]

the way indulgences were explained to me is that money is sort of like service. If someone helped the poor their whole life like mother teresa one could see why they might go to heaven. However, if someone gives enough money so the church can help the poor to a greater extent than that of one person in their entire lifetime, is that so much different? Of course protestants would consider neither of these things noble tasks since your state of mind alone can get you in to heaven regardless of anything you do here on earth, whether it be helping the poor your entire life or genociding millions.

 

 

I suppose the thing with John Paul II is that they want to do!@#$%^&*ent two miracles (I think you're right about the requirement to be a saint). If they don't pay attention the miracles might happen but they have no proof so they can't formally call him a saint.

Edited October 16, 2007 by Bak

[X`terrania]

Can we possibly get a link to this?

[ThunderJam]

the way indulgences were explained to me is that money is sort of like service. If someone helped the poor their whole life like mother teresa one could see why they might go to heaven. However, if someone gives enough money so the church can help the poor to a greater extent than that of one person in their entire lifetime, is that so much different? Of course protestants would consider neither of these things noble tasks since your state of mind alone can get you in to heaven regardless of anything you do here on earth, whether it be helping the poor your entire life or genociding millions.

 

I suppose the thing with John Paul II is that they want to do!@#$%^&*ent two miracles (I think you're right about the requirement to be a saint). If they don't pay attention the miracles might happen but they have no proof so they can't formally call him a saint.

Well from what I know, the money given to traveling priests for indulgences was not in turn given to other purposes. There were like specific priests who made this their job and they kept the money for the most part I think. I still think its noble to give money to charity even though I'm protestant, we all do. We just don't think that deeds alone are able to get us to heaven.

 

I have nothing against the video taping for miracles, although I think its a weird requirement to become a saint, but w/e.

 

Yea xter when I have some time I'll try to find the article in an online-form. In general it was a good news-piece, there were just bits and pieces of it where i was like "ARE U KIDDING?" It was because they said things like the money was needed to aid the process of him becoming a saint. I fail to see any correlation between having money and reaching a holy status.

Edited October 16, 2007 by ThunderJam

[Bak]

lol @ catholic encyclopedia: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07783a.htm It seems to say that abuses with indulgences have occurred as humans priests can be corrupted, but the abuses are not endorsed by the Catholic church.

 

anyways it's not like service (indulgences) alone gets one into heaven according to Catholicism. You need to also have faith in Jesus rising from the dead and all that nonsense. Protestants believe it's just faith in Jesus rising from the dead.

 

This is sort of parallel in that money alone will not make John Paul II (or anyone) a saint, but it can be of help in do!@#$%^&*enting the necessary prerequisites.

Edited October 17, 2007 by Bak

[ThunderJam]

anyways it's not like service (indulgences) alone gets one into heaven according to Catholicism. You need to also have faith in Jesus rising from the dead and all that nonsense. Protestants believe it's just faith in Jesus rising from the dead.

 

This is sort of parallel in that money alone will not make John Paul II (or anyone) a saint, but it can be of help in do!@#$%^&*enting the necessary prerequisites.

Yea today people don't think that their money will get them to heaven, but during the middle ages THAT WAS THE CASE. They were sold as if they get rid of all your sin and get you to heaven. They were one of they key factors that inspired Martin Luther to write his theses (plural).

 

Yea your right money could help in keeping video records and maintaining the site for a bit, but im talking thousands and thousands of dollars that they got saying it would MAKE HIM A SAINT. The catholic church has plenty of money to run a website with some fancy interactive junk. Just gives an impression of being fishy.

Edited October 17, 2007 by ThunderJam

[Aileron]

I think when X`terr wanted a link, he was referring to the cite of the organization collecting money which you referred to, not the definition of the word "indulgence". As of yet we don't even have any name of this "Church sponsored organization", what they would say their mission is, how they plan on accomplishing it, etc. All we have is vague statements made by somebody who has an axe to grind. So far this seems to me like nothing more than a straw-man arguement to promote some anti-Catholic rhetoric.

 

That would be like me saying that I've heard of a group of Trench Wars players who've set up a website so that they can raise funds to hire an army of mercenaries and stage a coup in Botswana, and therefore Prittk is evil. I don't know if its true, I don't know what their goals are, and I don't know if they are connected with Trench War's central command. Thus, I'm citing rumor, and twisting it to sound as radical as possible so that I have something that's easy to disagree with.

[ThunderJam]

I thought he wanted a link to the article.

 

I thought the article was from the Washington Times, but doing a few searches in their online archives I can't seem to find it

 

And I brought this up because I wanted to know if anyone else has an idea why or what role thousands or dollars needs to play in him becoming a saint, there may be stuff I don't know because I'm not catholic but it didn't make sense to me.

[Aileron]

Well, I am Catholic, and the answer would be 'none'. The Church has a dedicated department for checking in to miracles. The Church also would have no problems hearing about any miracle that happens. If a miracle occurs, the local priest will hear about it, he'll tell the bishop, the bishop will tell the cardinal, and the cardinal will get the investigation started. The Catholic Church is regarded as being the best organization on Earth for gathering information, much better than the CIA infact - if Osama Bin Laden ever stepped one toe inside of a Christian country, strike forces from four or five countries would be closing on his position in about 15 minutes.

 

I guess I must also state the standards these miracles go by. The 'I saw his face on a grilled cheese sandwich', though popular on the internet, does not qualify. Generally if you could standardize miracles, the most common type would be somebody who was deathly ill suddenly recovering from their disease after the doctors have run out of treatments, with some sort of second event to attribute it to the proper saint. The witnesses have to be investigated by psychologists to rule out mental diseases and bold-faced lying, and the physical event itself has to be investigated by scientists of the appropriate field. Miracles have a greater tendancy of occuring in third world countries, mostly because God likes to help out those in dire need, not the 'kinda sorta would be nice ifs'. Thus, they don't make it to the news or the internet because there is probably only one phone line within 100 miles of the event.

[ThunderJam]

Generally if you could standardize miracles, the most common type would be somebody who was deathly ill suddenly recovering from their disease after the doctors have run out of treatments, with some sort of second event to attribute it to the proper saint. The witnesses have to be investigated by psychologists to rule out mental diseases and bold-faced lying, and the physical event itself has to be investigated by scientists of the appropriate field. Miracles have a greater tendancy of occuring in third world countries, mostly because God likes to help out those in dire need, not the 'kinda sorta would be nice ifs'. Thus, they don't make it to the news or the internet because there is probably only one phone line within 100 miles of the event.

Yea I met a mexican family with a story like that on a mission trip to a christian orphanage I was on a few summers ago. Theyre baby has some sort of tumor in his brain, and has all sorts of xray records and everything showing it. The morning of the surgery they went for one final xray, had been like a few weeks since the last one, so they wanted a image of how it was At that exact moment before surgery. They took the xray, and there was nothing there. Even trace chemicals that usually remain in the blood for months after a tumor is gone were not present.

 

Kinda creepy about the best at gathering information thing with the osama example. That could be a major Newsflash to those who say radical christians are as bad as radical muslims. If the catholic church has that much power but has not used it, shows the constraint the christians have as compared to others.

[Aileron]

I was exaggerating, though beating the CIA in terms of competency isn't really that difficult, the organization has a history of bungles from the U2 and The Bay of Pigs in the 50s to the fact that they can neither find Osama Bin Laden nor most of Saddam Hussein's chemical weapons which he has used to commit genocide half a century later.

 

Still the Church is good at gathering information due to the heirarchy. Every Church going Catholic is linked to atleast an arch-bishop by only three degrees. Thus, if a layman sees a miracle and immeadiately calls his priest, then the priest calls his bishop, then the bishop calls his arch-bishop, and the arch-bishop calls the Vatican, the Pope could learn about an event occuring on the other side of the world before the local news does. Granted most Catholics don't spend all day standing next to the telephone, but...