Spider rebalance

[11___________]

Ever since I started playing, spiders have always been a "noob ship." Even a year or more ago they were used directly after a reset to rape the center with stray fire. This always seems to work since ships in the center either are hanging on the edges shooting stray bullets into the center, or in the center dogfighting. The spider right now is too slow to be at the center dogfighting. If it was to be made like the old spider, i could someone bringing back a rushing spider. I hope that made halfway decent sense.

[tcsoccer and neptune]

i liked the old spider way better, just like i liked the old wzl and the old levi.

 

CHANGE THEM BACK

[cdrom]

the old spider had crazy thrust, u could use them like fat wbs, so hard to hit

[zephoid]

dear Dr Brain,

it has been nearly 2 months since i posted this and i am started to get frustrated. i love how the zone has a regular cycle of adding new things, but in the past 3-4 months there have been very few ship rebalanced (ter and minor shark upd i think) . As you can see, most people here think spider need fixed, and many ideas have been submitted. I personally have stopped playing hs about 6 or 7 times in the past week because i got so annoyed with spiders laming me in center. I can kill any other ship after a few attempts with my warbird but i can rarely kill a spider one on one because of the massive recharge rate and moderately fast speed. With x radar on( you have to keep it on with these people who bind cloak and fire to one key) warbird has a serious challenge to kill even the worst spider pilot without getting killed by the next ship coming out of the safe. Please consider updating the spider with some changes soon.

 

Zephoid

Edited November 27, 2007 by zephoid

[tiss61]

Recently i have noticed an outbreak of spider everywhere in the zone. I see them with flech or shred in the center, beam pulse or plasma in base; and no matter where they are, they always can at least hold there own. I think its about time there was something done as i just got finished playing a basing game where there were 3 spider and a wzl holding off our whole team of rushers for half an hour.

 

 

Basing: i think spiders have goten to be way to dominant in basing. If you look at the ships of people who get over 300 bty in a base, it is almost all spiders. There current setup allows you to spam almost forever with beam and pulse and when 2-3 of these spammers stack up, they effectively stop all rushing. I think that a small amount less recharge(1.1k initial, 1.7k max?) should solve this problem as it would make the people stop spamming and allow the rushing a chance.

 

Center: again, the first few days after the reset was filled with flech spiders. either on turrets or alone, it was easy to get to 400+ bty by spamming at the center spawn. I think flechette with the current rechage is a bit overpowered and i think the easiest way to balance this out without hurting the spiders capacity in other fields is to remove flechette from spider. The rest of the weapons it uses are still quite powerful but are easier to dodge.

 

While most of the ships in HS require alot of skill to use, i have always considered spiders to be at the lowest level of noobishness. It takes no skill to spam, and thats what spider is all about currently.

i god forbits totally disagree! well sort of. people in basing spamming is cause they spent a lot of money on their spider! the least they can get is some bounty! and as for centering... it's your problem u cant dodge the flechette, spider are one of the slowest ships in hs. so stop complaining!

[tiss61]

spider does not need a speed nerf

 

its soooooo slow

yea

Edited November 28, 2007 by tiss61

[11___________]

This is so simple to answer for basing...people arent buying reps. From all the basing I have seen lately, close combats are on few ships and all sharks. With center, a spider is powerful. Its all just brute strength. Easiest way to take it out is double team since it can't run away, or bounce your bullets since center spiders don't carry bouncing bullet types.

[Dr Brain]

dear Dr Brain,

it has been nearly 2 months since i posted this and i am started to get frustrated. i love how the zone has a regular cycle of adding new things, but in the past 3-4 months there have been very few ship rebalanced (ter and minor shark upd i think) . As you can see, most people here think spider need fixed, and many ideas have been submitted. I personally have stopped playing hs about 6 or 7 times in the past week because i got so annoyed with spiders laming me in center. I can kill any other ship after a few attempts with my warbird but i can rarely kill a spider one on one because of the massive recharge rate and moderately fast speed. With x radar on( you have to keep it on with these people who bind cloak and fire to one key) warbird has a serious challenge to kill even the worst spider pilot without getting killed by the next ship coming out of the safe. Please consider updating the spider with some changes soon.

 

Zephoid

 

Dear zephoid,

 

I was married almost 4 months ago, and started working toward my Masters degree in Electrical Engineering at the beginning of September, along with a research job to pay for the costs !@#$%^&*ociated with said degree. Quite simply, I've had very little time left over for Hyperspace. It looks like my workload will be a bit lighter next semester, but as always, I make no promises about zone progress.

 

While I could make all the changes proposed in this thread, I've always felt that changing settings without playing for an hour or two beforehand is a bad idea. Yes, many of the ships aren't properly balanced, but you'll simply have to trust me that they won't always be like that.

 

Dr Brain

Edited November 28, 2007 by Dr Brain

[zephoid]

dear Dr Brain,

it has been nearly 2 months since i posted this and i am started to get frustrated. i love how the zone has a regular cycle of adding new things, but in the past 3-4 months there have been very few ship rebalanced (ter and minor shark upd i think) . As you can see, most people here think spider need fixed, and many ideas have been submitted. I personally have stopped playing hs about 6 or 7 times in the past week because i got so annoyed with spiders laming me in center. I can kill any other ship after a few attempts with my warbird but i can rarely kill a spider one on one because of the massive recharge rate and moderately fast speed. With x radar on( you have to keep it on with these people who bind cloak and fire to one key) warbird has a serious challenge to kill even the worst spider pilot without getting killed by the next ship coming out of the safe. Please consider updating the spider with some changes soon.

 

Zephoid

 

Dear zephoid,

 

I was married almost 4 months ago, and started working toward my Masters degree in Electrical Engineering at the beginning of September, along with a research job to pay for the costs !@#$%^&*ociated with said degree. Quite simply, I've had very little time left over for Hyperspace. It looks like my workload will be a bit lighter next semester, but as always, I make no promises about zone progress.

 

While I could make all the changes proposed in this thread, I've always felt that changing settings without playing for an hour or two beforehand is a bad idea. Yes, many of the ships aren't properly balanced, but you'll simply have to trust me that they won't always be like that.

 

Dr Brain

 

 

 

 

ok, i was just making sure u were still among the living, not the robot who runs your computer.

[Sharpflame]

The only thing I think spider really deserves is a rotation decrease, and a small one too. This'd make it possible for faster ships to swing behind the spider and take it out whenever the spider is vulnerable from behind, giving it a weakness against faster ships.

[Sention]

I dont think the spider is in any need of a fix really... in the center the are incredibly easy to kill if you just distance yourself and let them spam you while you evade and aim your shots. In base, well they are essential to just about any defense but spiders are very easy to kill with thor spam or just plain rep, rush and burst.

 

Spider is just used more then most ships in center because it is the most cost effective as stated earlier in the thread.

[tiss61]

disagree with sharpflame cause spider's rotation is already suckey enough, i have a spider for center and i cant hit anything that flys behind me in time.

agree with sention cause yea, spider is really cheap, all u need is like 60k to make your spider almost perfect

[zephoid]

I dont think the spider is in any need of a fix really... in the center the are incredibly easy to kill if you just distance yourself and let them spam you while you evade and aim your shots. In base, well they are essential to just about any defense but spiders are very easy to kill with thor spam or just plain rep, rush and burst.

 

Spider is just used more then most ships in center because it is the most cost effective as stated earlier in the thread.

 

spiders stack too ez tho. u can distance yourself, but when theres 2 or 3 spiders on the same team they concentrate fire and u have to back off every time. their huge amount of base energy allows them to take most of the shots u shoot at them with little or no effect. shred wb is the only simple way to kill them and shred and that wep is terrible for btying and just plain noobish for killing other wbs and javs. for the rot problem.... ?buy extra rot ?but overthrusters. either one will make u rotate so fast nothing can get around u. no, spider needs a nerf, but i think the best way is to reduce its recharge or size. the main benefit of spider is its huge size makes it's pulse spread better than multifire on wb or ter. reduce the size, and u make some of the abusive gunlines in base harder to use and in center the shots are easier to dodge but you also make the ship a little bit harder to hit so you keep the ship good . either that or reduce the recharge so a mezon spider cant spam flech or pulse all day and keep almost the same energy.

Edited December 1, 2007 by zephoid

[Aceflyer]

spiders stack too ez tho. u can distance yourself, but when theres 2 or 3 spiders on the same team they concentrate fire and u have to back off every time. their huge amount of base energy allows them to take most of the shots u shoot at them with little or no effect.

 

Actually, if spiders wish to spam Pulse Lasers, they need to get Mezon Capacitor, which gives them only 1800 energy each, which is actually rather low for a ship as large as a Spider is. Other large ships like Leviathans and Lancasters typically sport energies as high as 3500 and 3000 each, the former of which is almost two times the energy of a single Spider.

 

Alternatively, if a Spider wishes to get more energy, they can get up to 3000 energy which is achieved with a ZPM. In this case they are no longer able to spam Pulse Lasers indefinitely because of the 0 recharge on a ZPM and because Spiders cannot buy a H2 Ramscoop to boost recharge.

 

So I would like to submit that the above quoted argument is void.

 

shred wb is the only simple way to kill them and shred and that wep is terrible for btying and just plain noobish for killing other wbs and javs.

 

Oh, really? There are plenty of ways to kill Spiders without sacrificing yourself in a suicidal rush...

 

1) Javelin: Stay out of gun range and lob bombs at the slow moving Spider. (Yeah, Spiders don't have rockets.)

2) Spider: Simply out-Spider the Spider.

3) Leviathan: Don't get too close (use rockets to stay out of gun range if necessary) and spam powerful bombs at the Spider. Use your own high(er) energy to absorb any stray shots that may hit you.

4) Weasel: EMP the Spider so it quits spamming, then hit it with a ton of guns (coupled with rockets if you like).

5) Shark: Get between the Spider's guns, rocket onto it, and kill it with guns while sitting on top of it.

 

for the rot problem.... ?buy extra rot ?but overthrusters. either one will make u rotate so fast nothing can get around u. no, spider needs a nerf, but i think the best way is to reduce its recharge or size. the main benefit of spider is its huge size makes it's pulse spread better than multifire on wb or ter. reduce the size, and u make some of the abusive gunlines in base harder to use and in center the shots are easier to dodge but you also make the ship a little bit harder to hit so you keep the ship good . either that or reduce the recharge so a mezon spider cant spam flech or pulse all day and keep almost the same energy.

 

I've yet to see a Spider which could "rotate so fast nothing [could] get around [it]."

 

Its huge size is actually a disadvantage as Sharks can fly up to Spiders by moving between the two gunports. Also, its huge size means it is easier to hit with bombs and generally absorbs more hits from guns as well (ever hear of the saying "the bigger it is the easier it is to hit?"). As far as 'spreading', Spiders with Flechette Gun are generally only used by players who can't aim well, and are easily taken out. Finally, as far as "abusive gunlines," I have seen many, many, many times more "abusive bomblines" with a swarm of Leviathans and Lancasters using powerful bombs with heavy shrap, or even prox as well in the case of TacNuke, than I have seen "abusive gunlines" from Spiders. Even if there were such "abusive gunlines," they could be handled the same way "abusive bomblines" are handled.

[zephoid]

spiders stack too ez tho. u can distance yourself, but when theres 2 or 3 spiders on the same team they concentrate fire and u have to back off every time. their huge amount of base energy allows them to take most of the shots u shoot at them with little or no effect.

 

Actually, if spiders wish to spam Pulse Lasers, they need to get Mezon Capacitor, which gives them only 1800 energy each, which is actually rather low for a ship as large as a Spider is. Other large ships like Leviathans and Lancasters typically sport energies as high as 3500 and 3000 each, the former of which is almost two times the energy of a single Spider.

 

Alternatively, if a Spider wishes to get more energy, they can get up to 3000 energy which is achieved with a ZPM. In this case they are no longer able to spam Pulse Lasers indefinitely because of the 0 recharge on a ZPM and because Spiders cannot buy a H2 Ramscoop to boost recharge.

 

So I would like to submit that the above quoted argument is void.

 

 

1800 energy is ALOT of energy. think of what wzls can do with tokamak, 1300 energy and still having to use alot of there recharge with thrusters. and, as ive been saying, spiders can STACK. 2-3 spiders together make it ALOT harder to kill than 3 warbirds doing the same thing. Why do u think turrets are so successful against smalls ships? they dont have good thrust or speed and are usually using mezon spiders so they don't have alot of health vs bombs. but they have SPAM. they STACK. u cant get close because of the number of shots and have enough energy to finish off the turret. ITS THE SAME THING WITH MULTIPLE SPIDERS. this isnt a hard concept, but some people love to ignore it.

 

to your 'solutions', all but the shark require TIME, where another person in center comes along and kills you and guess what, the spider survives. if it was 1v1, sure, but in center there are MORE than one person trying to kill u. also, if u got another ship following u and u know the first thing about how to fly a ship with no thrust you will realize u can bounce against a wall and force him to back off or kill him 95% of the time.

 

you dont want spider changed cuz guess what ship u always use............ wana take a guess? think REAL hard.

 

 

also, try using ot+ extra rot, i have it on my spider cuz i set spider up for turreting and it turns so fast i can track a warbird flying around the edge of my ship.

[tiss61]

1800 energy is ALOT of energy. think of what wzls can do with tokamak, 1300 energy and still having to use alot of there recharge with thrusters. and, as ive been saying, spiders can STACK. 2-3 spiders together make it ALOT harder to kill than 3 warbirds doing the same thing. Why do u think turrets are so successful against smalls ships? they dont have good thrust or speed and are usually using mezon spiders so they don't have alot of health vs bombs. but they have SPAM. they STACK. u cant get close because of the number of shots and have enough energy to finish off the turret. ITS THE SAME THING WITH MULTIPLE SPIDERS. this isnt a hard concept, but some people love to ignore it.

 

to your 'solutions', all but the shark require TIME, where another person in center comes along and kills you and guess what, the spider survives. if it was 1v1, sure, but in center there are MORE than one person trying to kill u. also, if u got another ship following u and u know the first thing about how to fly a ship with no thrust you will realize u can bounce against a wall and force him to back off or kill him 95% of the time.

 

you dont want spider changed cuz guess what ship u always use............ wana take a guess? think REAL hard.

 

 

also, try using ot+ extra rot, i have it on my spider cuz i set spider up for turreting and it turns so fast i can track a warbird flying around the edge of my ship.

lol if recharge was lessoned on spider with mezon, then all the spiders will get zpm instead, then no matter what, they still spam cause then if they stack they can "take turns" spamming guns

[zephoid]

lol if recharge was lessoned on spider with mezon, then all the spiders will get zpm instead, then no matter what, they still spam cause then if they stack they can "take turns" spamming guns

 

i dont think u understand how this works. the starting recharge and the max recharge would b lowered, therefore zpm would b even slower recharge. and zpm spiders dont have the recharge to spam at all

[Aceflyer]

1800 energy is ALOT of energy. think of what wzls can do with tokamak, 1300 energy and still having to use alot of there recharge with thrusters.

 

Even my Weasel has 1780 energy. It has good recharge too. 1800 energy is not alot for a ship as big as a Spider is.

 

and, as ive been saying, spiders can STACK.

 

Other ships can stack too. Ever see stacked Leviathans in bomblines? Those are hard to kill, with 3500 energy each and all.

 

than 3 warbirds doing the same thing.

 

Bringing in Warbirds, a vastly different kind of ship, is quite irrelevant to the present discussion about Spiders. My example with Leviathans is much more relevant than your example with Warbirds.

 

Why do u think turrets are so successful against smalls ships? they dont have good thrust or speed and are usually using mezon spiders so they don't have alot of health vs bombs. but they have SPAM. they STACK.

 

The good turrets usually also have at least one Weasel to EMP and multiple Leviathans to spam bombs. In fact, most turrets rely more on long range bomb spam to kill than on guns to kill at short range. And turrets generally lay a wall of mines to stop rushers, and only fall back on gun spam if rushers get through both the bomb spam and the mine wall.

 

u cant get close because of the number of shots and have enough energy to finish off the turret. ITS THE SAME THING WITH MULTIPLE SPIDERS. this isnt a hard concept, but some people love to ignore it.

 

So? Spiders have gotta have some advantage... otherwise they'd become like Terriers, few or none would get them.

 

to your 'solutions', all but the shark require TIME

 

Out-Spidering a Spider requires time?

 

Leviathans usually also do quite well in a short period of time. The only solution that may require a bit longer time is the one with the Weasel, but even then it generally does not take that long unless you are up against a really experienced Spider (in which case it's more the difference in experience than the difference in ships that keeps the Spider alive).

 

, where another person in center comes along and kills you and guess what, the spider survives.

 

Uh, none of my solutions required sitting still in one place. Also, the Spider will have to deal with the same 'problem' with other players in center, so it's not like you're the only one up against multiple adversaries.

 

if it was 1v1, sure, but in center there are MORE than one person trying to kill u. also, if u got another ship following u and u know the first thing about how to fly a ship with no thrust you will realize u can bounce against a wall and force him to back off or kill him 95% of the time.

 

Not sure I follow you.

 

you dont want spider changed cuz guess what ship u always use............ wana take a guess? think REAL hard.

 

Uh, I use my Weasel most of my time. That didn't require me to think real hard, btw.

 

also, try using ot+ extra rot, i have it on my spider cuz i set spider up for turreting and it turns so fast i can track a warbird flying around the edge of my ship.

 

That also means your Spider is set up more like a Leviathan than anything (slow but powerful tank) since it'd be dead in the water if you weren't turretting, so I don't see the problem.

Edited December 1, 2007 by Aceflyer

[Sharpflame]

Spiders can't have rockets. Every other ship can. I think Spiders are pretty easy to kill, they are very big and easy to hit off the radar.

 

With the whole rotation thing, if a Spider prefers rotation, and extra rotations even more, that means that they can't go fast if they use Overthruster. If they buy some Extra Rotations, then that is one less utility for them, like cloaking.

[Aceflyer]

Spiders can't have rockets. Every other ship can. I think Spiders are pretty easy to kill, they are very big and easy to hit off the radar.

 

With the whole rotation thing, if a Spider prefers rotation, and extra rotations even more, that means that they can't go fast if they use Overthruster. If they buy some Extra Rotations, then that is one less utility for them, like cloaking.

 

Very true, Sharpflame. I agree entirely.

[11___________]

spider is fine for me. I average 50+ bounty each life.

[ArcticxWolf]

yes, mezon on terrier would be great

 

^

[cdrom]

Spiders can't have rockets. Every other ship can.

your forgetting ultra rockets, lol

[Aceflyer]

Spiders can't have rockets. Every other ship can.

your forgetting ultra rockets, lol

 

That item is so l33t it doesn't really count, lol...

[Arry]

I disagree, I don't think spiders need rebalancing.

 

Center: Single spiders ARE difficult for newbish warbirds to kill because they try to brute force it. You need to modify your attack, use your speed to your advantage. You can't kill a spider in one sweep, but a disciplined attack of 3-6 fly-bys is difficult for a spider to overcome. Even with reps and energy infusion I can still manage to take out spider 1 on 1. If you build up speed from a distance, your bullets will travel faster and farther than the spider's, and when you swoop in you can elect to take a couple of hits in order to swing quickly past to the spider's rear, it will have trouble rotating as you peck at it from behind.

To me, a jav is more difficult to take out with a warbird, because the jav just has to get lucky with one hit while you try to be disciplined and take him out with a spread of bullets. Your disciplined attack with bullets makes you vulnerable to a 1-hit kill with bombs. BUT THAT's a RANT FOR ANOTHER POST!

Stacked spiders vs stacked warbirds is a stupid analogy. Nobody is making you stack warbirds. A warbird should act as a decoy and keep the spiders busy while you pelt the stacked spiders with other ships from a safe distance (I'm thinking levi here).

It sounds like you just want warbirds to be the best ship in the center no matter what the situation, and I don't think that's a good reason to rebalance a ship.

 

Basing: I think someone already said it. Rep, rush, burst & thoring. Spiders can spam, but they can't keep spamming when they're getting hurt too. If they get too low on energy, they either have to infuse or STOP SHOOTING. A decent push of rushers seem to be able to get past the spiders. Even stacks of spiders. To me, a decent rush seems to penetrate even stacks of spiders. Spiders also can't avoid bomb lines very well.

 

I agree that they are a basic spamming ship and don't require much skill to use, but I don't think they need to be rebalanced. That's just the type of ship they are, where is the law that says all ships have to been hard to use (antinoob)?