Student Tasered at Kerry Event

[LiDDiS]

LiDDiS, have you seen any city in the past 30 years? We have slums all over the place, and the simplist reason for that is because crime is rampant because police have too many t's to cross and i's to dot while handling a suspect.

That's a failure of the system. Tasering people left and right is a lazy solution.

 

and innocent people tasered mistakingly can get over it.

Except for the ones that die from being tasered. Tasers can be deadly. Although it's rare, people die from them. For this reason hey should only be used in possibly life threatening situations or when there are no other options.

 

You're telling me a cop couldn't grab this kid and cuff him without going straight for the taser? !@#$%^&* they could have even pepper sprayed him.

[Bak]

He was being a !@#$%^&*bag, but the thing that separates a free society from others is that we allow people to speak their mind ESPECIALLY if they don't agree with us (its not hard to allow people free speech if what they say agrees with what you think). Even though you're right, it's not like he was being silenced at his registered protest so legally they they didn't do anything wrong.

 

I just hope that the reason they cut him off and removed him because he was going over his time limit or not letting Kerry answer and NOT that they didn't want to answer his questions or hear what he said (the former seems like the case).

Edited September 20, 2007 by Bak

[Aileron]

Tasers can be lethal to people with heart conditions, sure. He appears to be young and healthy though. People in modern society can be wimps sometimes.

[JDS]

I do know that organizing a protest is a final project in one of the courses there.

That's just pathetic...

 

 

why is that pathetic

 

are we not alowed to protest.. !@#$%^&* whats better than a class on protesting

[SeVeR]

It's pathetic because no-one should be taught how to protest, or look for something to protest against in order to p!@#$%^&* a course. Protesting is something that is spontaneous and personal. It's like teaching people how to have sex.

 

Except for the ones that die from being tasered. Tasers can be deadly. Although it's rare, people die from them. For this reason hey should only be used in possibly life threatening situations or when there are no other options.

How many of these people had drugs in their system? How many had undetectable and extremely rare heart conditions that probably would have cut their lives short anyway?

 

Fact is, if the risks were as serious as you say, then the police wouldn't be using tasers for fear of media and public retaliation. The number killed after being taserred must be a small fraction of one percent.

 

Having said that, tasers shouldn't be used by lazy police officers who don't want to get their mits dirty.

[Aileron]

On top of that are the protesters who do that as a social event. Many of them just show up just for the sake of protesting, because they apparently can't find a good bar or a hobby which they enjoy.

 

And the problem with that is that it creates a "boy who cried wolf" situation, where government officials almost have to ignore protesters now, because so many of them simply don't have a cause; they just wish to protest 'the establishment', which is going to always be a fact of life. Hypothetically, next week Kerry could be confronted by a protester who might have an actual point, but that one will be ignored because Kerry is unlikely to listen to any more protesters due to this idiot.

[Hakaku]

Tasers can be lethal to people with heart conditions, sure. He appears to be young and healthy though. People in modern society can be wimps sometimes.

False. Tasers, just as much as stun guns, can be lethal to anyone, with or without heart conditions. If anything, in every reported death by taser, the person involved had different conditions (drugs, schizophrenia, seizure, tumor - and the most number of deaths: no health or mental problems whatsoever). What else kills people? The fact that they're tasered over a minute, or over 12 times. Prisons in the US especially have seen the highest rise in the number of deaths (one reported 15 deaths between 2000-2005)

 

But whether it's 1, 2, or 12 times, or done from 1-120 seconds, tasers can kill more easily than batons can. Is time really wasted when you put on the cuffs compared to a death? You can't predict how every human body will react to the shock.

Edited September 21, 2007 by Hakaku

[SeVeR]

The problem isn't tasers, the problem is police officers who either:

 

1. Don't want to get their hands dirty with real police work, where they have to arrest someone using techniques that require physical force.

2. Are too eager to test out their new weapon.

3. Enjoy zapping people, in some cases several times, as you mention.

 

As for any weapon there has to be regulations on it's proper use; regulations that are strictly enforced. The taser should not be an alternative to over-powering the offender physically.

 

On my earlier point, if a drugged criminal dies from a taser hit (due to being drugged), then this is no reason to criticise tasers.

[»doc flabby]

The guy was an idiot, not sure if he broke any laws however....All he did was talk....However regardless of the rights and wrong of his arrent

 

Whats wrong is the taser was used at all to arrest him.

 

You dont need to taser someone to arrest someone not carrying a weapon.

I think taser use can only be justified as an alternative to leathal force.

 

Just another case of !@#$%^&* !@#$%^&* cops abusing.

Edited September 21, 2007 by doc flabby

[NBVegita]

The problem is they were not real cops. They were campus security. Campus security is not put through the training of a standard police officer. In fact they have very little training at all.

 

I feel using a taser in most instances is a great way for police to control a situation. It's like using rubber bullets in a riot. If you are confronted by the police for doing something, resist arrest, make a huge scene and or attempt to get away, I feel they should be able to taser you.

 

Perfect example, the woman who's all over tv for being tasered whiled handcuffed. He tasered her to calm her down the first time(s). I don't agree with how many times he did it, but she was drunk, histarical, and trying to escape. So he handcuffs her, puts her in the back of his cruiser. Now this is where he's being criticized, because she is handcuffed. She began kicking at his back window with all of her force and screaming. I'm sorry, handcuffed or not, if you're attempting to destroy a police vehicle, you deserve to be tasered.

 

I mean what are you defending? Defending the right to be an idiot, make a scene, resist arrest, and cause trouble? Specially in the Kerry case, they got the kid once, and it got him in handcuffs. Do you realize in most states police officers cannot use his gun to defend himself if a man comes at them with a knife. A police officer is restricted to use "equal force" as the !@#$%^&*ailant. It's because of bull!@#$%^&* like this that these laws are made. In at least NY state if a man has a gun drawn on a police officer, and that police officer shoots before the !@#$%^&*ailant, he is immediately put on leave and an investigation is done as prior the the !@#$%^&*ailant pulling the trigger he has done nothing to warrant being shot.

 

You bet your !@#$%^&* if I was a cop and someone pulled a gun out on me, I'd not hesitate to shoot him.

[»doc flabby]

Do you realize in most states police officers cannot use his gun to defend himself if a man comes at them with a knife.

My point is that he didn't have a knife or offence weapon.

 

And there were like 6 cops there.

 

Therefore the use of a taser = excessive force.

Edited September 21, 2007 by doc flabby

[NBVegita]

no I disagree, being a taser is a non lethal weapon, with on a standard no lasting effects, it is not excessive. If 6 members of campus security are having difficulty detaining one man, that alone should warrant being able to taser the guy.

 

The fact is that even with 6 campus security around him, they could not get him into cuffs until they used the taser on him.

 

Plain and simple if he hadn't resisted, and forcefully resisted, he wouldn't have been tasered.

 

They warned him that if he didn't stop fighting he was going to be tasered.

 

excessive force? I call bull !@#$%^&*.

[LiDDiS]

ON A LIGHTER NOTE

Ever see the cops training videos of tasers and stun belts? Those are pretty hilarious. There was this one where they had the cops walk in a straight line across some padded mats, while wearing a stun belt. This one cop, a rather large fella started flopping around like a !@#$%^&*ing fish on the floor when they zapped him.

[AstroProdigy]

Last time I checked tasers don't calm you down. If 6 members of campus security are having difficulty detaining one man then they really aren't trying very hard. I don't know about you, but he didn't strike me as a massive bodybuilder or martial arts expert so they could have detained him with 2. The police also didn't follow the book. They were going to put him in jail and yet I didn't see anywhere them reading him his rights. I also don't see him !@#$%^&*aulting them so for him to be resisting arrest they'd have to have been arresting him from the beginning and if they were arresting him from the beginning that'd be an arrest for talking. They also said he incited a riot which is utter bull!@#$%^&*. It's nothing to do with the system, though. It's just some re!@#$%^&*ed campus security who don't know how to do their job. Have you ever been tasered NBV? Try multiple times and then talk about how people are just !@#$%^&*ing and it calms people down.

[NBVegita]

It sure as !@#$%^&* does calm you down. As shown in most videos the massive pain renders most targets temporarily immobile. Thus allowing the officers to to detain them.

 

I'll hit each of your points.

 

If 6 members of campus security are having difficulty detaining one man then they really aren't trying very hard. I don't know about you, but he didn't strike me as a massive bodybuilder or martial arts expert so they could have detained him with 2.

 

The first two who attempted to escort him from the podium were a head shorter than him. Out of the 6 campus securtiy members, two of them had his ankles, not in any way attempting to put him into cuffs, one was holding the cuffs, one was standing off to the side, and two were attempting to pull his arms behind his back. When he resisted to the point where the security was having visible difficulty in placing his hands behind his back, he was warned that he would have a taser used if he continued to resist. He did, and he was tasered.

 

The police also didn't follow the book. They were going to put him in jail and yet I didn't see anywhere them reading him his rights. I also don't see him !@#$%^&*aulting them so for him to be resisting arrest they'd have to have been arresting him from the beginning and if they were arresting him from the beginning that'd be an arrest for talking.

 

If you notice they did not initially attempt to arrest him. As requested by a peer who was coordinating the event, he was asked to be removed for violating the rules of the forum. He then began yelling, and avoiding removal. A third officer comes in, amidst all of his yelling and attempts to carry the boy up the stairs....not quite an attempt at arresting the lad. Once at the top of the stairs still yelling, he attempts to run through the guards and out the door. This is when they attempt to arrest him for disturbing the peace.

 

Also handcuffs are allowed to be used to detain a person, prior to reading them their rights. It is at the time they move from detaining you at the scene to arresting you that they must read you your rights. Many people have been handcuffed and never arrested. Once they removed him from the room, to restrict any further disturbance, they read him his rights. And then he said that the government was going to kill him.

 

They also said he incited a riot which is utter bull!@#$%^&*.

 

Actually the formal charges against him are a misdemeanor count of disturbing the peace, and resisting arrest. Which in a legal sense, if you are resisting the police from detaining you, that is resisting arrest.

 

And yes I have been hit by a taser. My sister teaches kickboxing and self defense classes, and I have been the "!@#$%^&*ailant" in multiple classes. I have been tasered 6 times. Each time I had to sign a waiver incase to incidental death/injury. The purpose of the class was to show these woman how effectively a taser will disable the !@#$%^&*ailant, while also showing the pain the !@#$%^&*ailant incurs. The pain is excruciating, but once the shock is over, the pain subsides quickly. You do feel a strange for an hour or so, and then you just feel faintly off for another few. But I'm telling you that while you are being shocked, you cannot move, and even for a few momoents after too

 

Why would you ask that I have done this 6 times? Each time I was given $1500.00 from the sponsor of the facility. $1500 for a few moments of crippling pain....really worth it when you're trying to buy a house

[Hakaku]

Trust me, tasers are being used in situations where they shouldn't be. (easy example - or worse than that)

And they're definitely less effective than simple martial arts, because you actually need the person to be restrained and nearly immobile in order to effectively tase someone. And worse, used in self-defense.

 

Tasers should be a last resort, not a first resort to taking someone down when you already clearly have a greater upper advantage (6 cops over 1 student barely doing much except shouting - when he was warned, he wasn't resisting, just yelling out in plead "don't taser me man").

[sil]

Trust me, tasers are being used in situations where they shouldn't be. (easy example - or worse than that)

And they're definitely less effective than simple martial arts, because you actually need the person to be restrained and nearly immobile in order to effectively tase someone. And worse, used in self-defense.

You are right, tasers are being used in situations they shouldn't be. As for less effective than simple martial arts, I find that a little funny. Most cops are not martial arts masters. Some do pursue it more than others. I know a few that are fantastic at it. Most just get trained basic holds, pins, take downs, locks, and so on so forth. Most of which require regular practice to actually use effectively vs a truely struggling foe. They also do not always work. Especially against something who has also had training. A taser will. They do not need to be "restrained and nearly immobile." You just have to hit them with it. Those simple martial arts skills can lend in hand in when to move in, or when to shoot in the case of the ranged varient.

 

Tasers should be a last resort, not a first resort to taking someone down when you already clearly have a greater upper advantage (6 cops over 1 student barely doing much except shouting - when he was warned, he wasn't resisting, just yelling out in plead "don't taser me man").

Actually, he was still resisting up until he was tasered. His arm (left arm i believe) was free and moving at that point trying to get free. Watch the video in the first post closely and you will see it.

 

Does this mean they should use it at every opportunity? No. But it is up to human intuition to when to. It is easy to look back now and say, they really should not have used it. But what about those few seconds they had to decide? The guy has been struggling and resising for awhile. Innocent people are near by. Are there sympathizers?

 

"Stop resisting or you'll get tazed"

 

What if he gets a lucky shot with the free arm or a good kick? He's broke free before. People are moving around. He is still struggling. That arm is still free.

 

"Bzzt"

 

 

You prolly took more time reading that than they had to think. Tasering him was in all likelihood not necessary. They prolly could have taken some more time with little incident to restrain him. But it was a non-lethal choice of action to quickly end the encounter.

Edited September 22, 2007 by sil

[Hakaku]

I said 'simple martial arts', meaning basic moves used in it. It is said that "electroshock weapons need much more continuous and uninterrupted contact time with one's intended target than usually advertised, well above 5 seconds, to stop a determined assailant effectively, and that much time can be impossible to achieve against a physically superior or better trained opponent in close unarmed combat".

 

And yes, I did watch the video and it has nothing to do with the fact that he was resisting or attempting to assasinate a cop and run away with a single arm still behind his back. In fact, he was tased because he was asked to turn around while lying down and face the ground (which he did, but then...). With 6 cops over him, he asked 'why am I being arrested'. He wasn't told, which is against your rights to be refused to know. As he was saying that, he turned his body and got his left hand free, looks backwards and then saw the taser, yelling "don't tase me".

For a criminal, he was barely struggling, just had a big mouth.

 

And no, it takes less than 3 seconds to even think up "tasers can kill". A cop could have done the same. I only read after or quote something someone else found to back up my point.

Edited December 11, 2008 by Hakaku

[»doc flabby]

If he had died would the use of a taser have seem appropriate? tasers do kill. In the uk we use them as a less-lethal alternative (as well as baton rounds) to firearms in situations where firearms officers would normally have used guns.

 

For a criminal, he was barely struggling, just had a big mouth.

He's not a criminal until he has actually been convicted of a crime.

Edited September 22, 2007 by doc flabby

[L.C.]

*Nobody in specific*

So, why do you say he deserved to be dragged out and be tasered?

[NBVegita]

A) He was asked to be removed from the forum by one of the students running the forum for the school. He had ignored all rules of the forum, and when granted the favor, favor as originally they were not going to let him speak as they were out of time, of being able to speak, he abused the favor and the forum.

 

When was asked to leave he made a huge scene, for which he had a friend specifically video taping, which ironically made it onto his website before the news even had the footage. He began yelling and fighting against the security who was trying to escort him away from the podium. He immediately began yelling asking why/that they were arresting him, when originally they had no such thing in mind.

 

C) Now after enough commotion they attempt to escort him out of the building. He still was refusing to leave and fighting back. Now they attempt to detain him for disturbing the police, for which he still resists to the point where the officers warn him multiple times that if he doesn't put his hands behind his back he will be tasered. He keeps fighting and ends up getting tasered.

 

As stated before if this were any other forum, IE a bar, a sporting event, ect. this man would have been tasered earlier, and most likely without a warning.

[»Ducky]

Had the student had an extra minute being a !@#$%^&*, who's to say that an angry rant couldn't have turned into him jumping on stage and physically !@#$%^&*aulting the man.

 

Who can really conclude whether or not the security interruption was done correctly?

Had something happened, everyone would whine that security should have stopped him sooner.

 

I can't believe I'm the only one to ignore the freedom of speech issue to focus more on the !@#$%^&*baggory of the matter.

Yes, I dropped !@#$%^&*baggory.

[NBVegita]

But the issue isn't freedom of speach.

 

He was not removed from the forum because of what he was saying, he was removed for how he was saying it. From the moment that he violated the rules of the forum they had the right to end his speach.

 

Plain and simple.

[ThunderJam]

I gotta agree with vegita, the protester was plain stupid and trying to cause a problem. Free speech doesn't mean you say whatever you want, it ends when it violates "disturbing the peace" or rules that are instated in private events in which people who enter have given implied consent to abide by the rules.

[JDS]

you guys are all idiots .. well not all of you, but you know who you are

 

 

 

why would you EVER once think that shocking a human is 'ok' cause it doesnt kill them.

 

you guys are !@#$%^&*ed in the head.