Scary...

[madhaha]

Point 1 is obviously wrong. I know about American culture from a great number of sources, not just TV. I shouldn't need to state the painstakingly obvious like NEWSPAPERS, RADIO, AMERICAN AND INTERNATIONAL LITERATURE or THE WEB. I also have many friends in the US and have visited the US as well as Canada on several occasions. I think that fairly comprehensively refutes your statement that "you really don't have an idease as to what is going on here".

 

Your second argument also falls short. I have not "!@#$%^&*umed" that Americans are irrational, indeed they do have a great deal to fear. Are your honestly telling the world that America isn't in a state of extreme social tension? I find that very difficult to swallow without any evidence at all considering the m!@#$%^&* of studies (peer reviewed and from reputable people) conducted by your own universities.

 

So call me "bigot" and mouth me off and yank your little penises. Until you can give me evidence to the contrary you haven't got a case.

[»dr uniburner]

Americans do not live in fear. I challenge you to find an American who has changed their daily lives due to a fear of terrorism.

 

George W. Bush Not much of a challenge.

 

You have mis-interpreted my message anyway. I'm saying that Americans live in daily fear anyway and that "terrorism" or the threat of terrorism only speeds up the rate of American social decline.

 

 

I think what mad meant in this, which was obviously overlooked btw, was that for the most part people in larger cities, which are terrorist targets, are more afraid of things like gang violence and such then they are of a terrorist flying a plane into there 7-11 or mall. Now for not being an american or anything, I would have to say that is a pretty good incite into how most people are thinking still. Ok, and here is an example, lets take a rich stock broker, he parks his brand new mercedez in a covered parking lot, makes sure all of his doors are locked and the security system is armed, however his bank is one of the largest buildings in one of the largest cities in the world...now if you where to ask this person if he was more worried about his mercedez getting jacked and stripped down for parts or a terrorist flying a plane into his building, what do you think he would say? probbly his precious mercedez.

[Yupa]

considering terrorists have already hitten two of the BIGGEST freaking targets of capitalism and American military power, I doubt they'd bother with some stupid bank

 

and yes, stupid cars

 

but still - there was the anthrax thing - some normalish people died, right? there you go

 

anyways - this thread is going to pol discussion

[X_PennyWise]

Whats more, the American society is comming apart, subtly but steadily into stereotyped "minority groups" that do not understand each other or wish to.

 

Wouldn't calling us "Americans" in the first place stereotyping? I mean seriously, I have little to no concern about terrorism. I just think they're idiots for thinking that Americans are a whole, I can care less what society and the government think. Can't we just live without having to deal with politcal -*BAD WORD*-?

 

My two cents, enjoy

[madhaha]

What I'm saying is that American culture is diverging, both into local variations and "minority interest groups" instead of coming together to form one general culture. Whats more, these groups have conflicting interests. Given the choice, many states would rather be seperate countries instead of being dragged into one global foreign policy (and of course they'd have more freedom in domestic issues).

 

Concerning the whole issue of bank robbing and mercedes (odd anology ), what I'm saying is that American society in general is already pretty tense and terrorism only adds to the tension. I feel that the government is playing on this tension to its own ends.

[»dr uniburner]

anyways - this thread is going to pol discussion

 

I could see that one coming lol.

[Guest feef]

>>What I'm saying is that American culture is diverging, both into local variations and "minority interest groups" instead of coming together to form one general culture. Whats more, these groups have conflicting interests. Given the choice, many states would rather be seperate countries instead of being dragged into one global foreign policy (and of course they'd have more freedom in domestic issues).<<

 

America has always been a melting pot. Politics is polarized and quite polemic at present, but I don't know if that's a bad thing. There are important decisions to make and those decisions are made by the people. Big things are afoot, as they were when policy was being decided on black segregation and women's right to vote. Forgive them their passions...

[madhaha]

I'm sorry did you have a point in the cliche mix?

 

> There are important decisions to make and those decisions are made by the people.

 

Er... as opposed to some global descision making AI or something?

 

> Big things are afoot, as they were when policy was being decided on black segregation and women's right to vote.

 

Not the same thing at all. Those issues concerned equal rights in society. Current issues deal with how the government want the populace controlled.

 

>Forgive them their passions...

 

Whats passionate and forgivable about what they're doing?

[MonteZuma]

...of course you would like to beleive our society is failing...

 

...they kill a few hundred of us, we kill a few thousand of them. sounds about right to me...

Comments like that will leave everybody in no doubt that your society is failing.

 

It might make no difference to you if a few hundred of your countrymen get killed fighting for something that nobody understands, but what about their kids, parents, siblings, partners?

 

Guess it doesn't matter so long as it isn't you in the way of the grenades, and it isn't you who has to explain to GI Joe jr that his daddy isn't coming home.

[MonteZuma]

First off, may I point out to Madhaha and Monte that you guys are a few thousand miles away from the US, so you really don't have an idea as to what is going on here except what you see on TV.

Oh I understand alright. You guys aren't that much different - just more uptight and more religious.

 

Monte.

[MonteZuma]

...Can't we just live without having to deal with politcal -*BAD WORD*-?

Errrrrm This forum is called "Political Discussion".

 

The forum with the !@#$%^&*in recipes is --------> THAT WAY.

 

[Bueshtak]

typical comments on this thread, specaily from the non-americans. of course you would like to beleive our society is failing or that we are in fear of something. ppl like to see the one on top fall to the bottom. well it wont happen. so dont get all excited. i know this, in the same way you seem to know whats going on in america......yawn.  

 

Won't happen? No empire lasts forever, neither will the U.S.A...not that I'm saying that it'll dissolve into chaos anytime soon, though we can all hope , just that at some time it is going to happen. At least, that's what history has shown us...maybe you'll be the exception.

[Guest feef]

>>I'm sorry did you have a point in the cliche mix?

 

> There are important decisions to make and those decisions are made by the people.

 

Er... as opposed to some global descision making AI or something?<<

 

I see someone has an axe to grind. But yes, I did have a point. The point was, like always, people (you) are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Doomsaying can be entertaining at times I guess, but one ought not confuse it with something that is useful.

 

<<> Big things are afoot, as they were when policy was being decided on black segregation and women's right to vote.

 

Not the same thing at all. Those issues concerned equal rights in society. Current issues deal with how the government want the populace controlled.<<

 

Oh, I see. Not that I agree with your curious distinctions, but I'd like to explore the digression anyway... you don't think women's right to vote or segregation had anything to do with control?

 

<<>Forgive them their passions...

 

Whats passionate and forgivable about what they're doing?<<

 

What are they doing? I was commenting on the alleged End of Days, and how it's hogwash. Debate is good. Personal attacks and letting your emotions control you isn't. Ahem.

[»ZiGNoTZaG]

...of course you would like to beleive our society is failing...

 

...they kill a few hundred of us, we kill a few thousand of them. sounds about right to me...

Comments like that will leave everybody in no doubt that your society is failing.

 

It might make no difference to you if a few hundred of your countrymen get killed fighting for something that nobody understands, but what about their kids, parents, siblings, partners?

 

Guess it doesn't matter so long as it isn't you in the way of the grenades, and it isn't you who has to explain to GI Joe jr that his daddy isn't coming home.

 

thats the whole reason im posting here smart guy. the original topic was about terror/fear. and i simply told you i was unafraid. and do you know why im unafraid? cuss those Americans have given there lives so i dont have to be. understand?.

 

and nodoby was drafted and made to go fight. hey if your in the military recieving all the benifts that it entails the risk is having to go fight. some people even actualy like going.

 

think if some clown flew a few jets into some of your landmarks. then maybe you can start telling me how I feel.

[Aileron]

Look, at first glance the numbers look like an overreaction, but there really was no alternative. What was the US supposed to do, count casualties, and stop if we exceed the 9/11 numbers? That is ludicrous. A popular phrase used in another arguement is "violence begetts violence". Actually, that is true, provided that the violence does not serve some purpose.

 

Basically, it would have been pointless for the US to just kill Taliban and Al Queda members. The goal was to dismember those organizations. While whether or not that goal has in fact been accomplished is debatable, we KNOW that it would not have been accomplished if we went to 3000 and quit. The only point of going into Afghanistan was to dismember these organizations. Any violence that is insufficient in degree to accomplish this purpose is pointless and therefor wrong.

 

Thus, the only real decision was between completely destroying Al Queda and completely ignoring it. That is an easy decision, because forgiveness for the US is not an option after this, especially when you factor in other attacks.

 

 

This situation would be similar to me punching Mike Tyson in the face, and him punching me back. If I wanted to avoid being punched, all I had to do was not hit him. However, Tyson does not have as many options. He either has the option to forgive and risk me punching him tomorrow or punch me back, and give me what I probably deserve anyway.

[MonteZuma]

...of course you would like to beleive our society is failing...

 

...they kill a few hundred of us, we kill a few thousand of them. sounds about right to me...

Comments like that will leave everybody in no doubt that your society is failing.

 

It might make no difference to you if a few hundred of your countrymen get killed fighting for something that nobody understands, but what about their kids, parents, siblings, partners?

 

Guess it doesn't matter so long as it isn't you in the way of the grenades, and it isn't you who has to explain to GI Joe jr that his daddy isn't coming home.

 

thats the whole reason im posting here smart guy. the original topic was about terror/fear. and i simply told you i was unafraid. and do you know why im unafraid? cuss those Americans have given there lives so i dont have to be. understand?.

Your complacency is based on a false premise. The forces in Iraq aren't making you safer. They are making the whole world a more dangerous place. You can't fight terrorism with a regular army.

 

and nodoby was drafted and made to go fight.

You think every soldier in Iraq wants to be there? Think again.

 

hey if your in the military recieving all the benifts that it entails the risk is having to go fight. some people even actualy like going.

Yes. Some people think that warfare is very entertaining. Some people can only afford to go to college if they join the military. More signs that society is corrupt.

 

think if some clown flew a few jets into some of your landmarks. then maybe you can start telling me how I feel.

The fact that American buildings were targeted explains the irrational actions of your government and the irrational loyalty of some of your people. It doesn't mean that you are automatically right about everything.

[Guest feef]

>>Guess it doesn't matter so long as it isn't you in the way of the grenades, and it isn't you who has to explain to GI Joe jr that his daddy isn't coming home.<<

 

War is ugly, but the world can be even uglier. You don't agree that it was a wise decision...well, guess what, no war in the history of man has managed to monopolize the approval of public opinion.

 

>>Your complacency is based on a false premise. The forces in Iraq aren't making you safer. They are making the whole world a more dangerous place. You can't fight terrorism with a regular army.<<

 

I don't think the anti-Western sentiments can be appeased in a way that doesn't completely conflict with our (Western) way of life. You can agree or disagree with it, and I too recognize it has its faults, but as far as the root of this conflict is concerned I believe we are just. Preaching tolerance is one thing, but I have zero toleration for intollerance.

 

I view most of the Middle-east as ruled by blind fanaticism, fear and ruthlessness. It seems the Western's struggle between church and state has yet to be fought in the Middle-east, or at least yet to be won. While their territory is wealthy (to the west--thus providing them an artificial lifeline) beyond reckoning in material riches, they remain impoverished and backwards. The podium of religious despotism is crippling them, as it once crippled the west. They are bitter, they feel worthless, and they dishonestly blame us for their failures. If the situation were reversed, and their cherished Islamic World Empire was realized, the whole of the world would share in their poverty. The Middle-east wants our wealth, but they don't know where that wealth comes from.

 

This is a battle to preserve a way of life... A way of life that is becoming increasingly threatened by the radicalism of the Islamic world. They hate us. They loathe us. One of their few pleasures in their insufferable lives is their belief that all us heathen Westerners will burn in the eternal fires of -*BAD WORD*-ation. So as the more powerful culture, we decided that it would prove too dangerous to continue to overlook their hateful posturings as par for the course; as though it were acceptable given the situation and perhaps one day, with diligene and industriousness, we could bring them up in the world, for we prosper from our neighbor's prosperity. But they're children that !@#$%^&*umed the parent's tolerance of their temper tantrums and naivety was a given, but now they know it's not. The only way to deal with their fanaticism is to crush their tyrants and their aspirations for an Islamic state and impose upon them a better future. The alternative is to allow them to become an ever more threatening breeding ground for destruction and hate.

 

That's the way I see it. I would be willing to give up a large sum of my income to bring the Middle-east up in the world and become an !@#$%^&*et to the world rather than a burden, like Japan and Germany before it. This goes beyond nation building I admit, but it's worth the cost.

[MonteZuma]

feef,

 

for the most part I agree....

 

But you can't fight hate with hate and you can't win the hearts and minds of angry people by force. That is why this war was badly conceived.

 

Obviously these middle easterners think differently to germans and japanese. Religion is probably the biggest difference. Something about islam seems to breed violence. I don't think we will ever (foreseeable future) see Iraq develop in the western image. In large part, it will always be something of a backwater of civilisation - the religion factor ensures that.

 

But....the fact is, there was no reason to rush to war. The troubles in the middle east need to be managed differently. Obviously the way the trouble is being managed in Israel/Palestine and Iraq is not conducive to a peaceful settlement.

 

If the inspectors were still in Iraq - thousands of lives and billions of dollars would have been saved. And the Iraq problem would still be contained.

 

The threat to the western way of life comes from radicals in Saudi Arabia and Egypt as much as it does from anywhere else - What are the Americans going to do next - Take Cairo? Of course not. It was easier to smash the Iraqi egg with a sledge hammer and feel good about it whilst ignoring the real source of hatred and conflict.

 

Gah - its late and I gotta go.

 

Monte.

[Aileron]

One at a time Monte. We have to start somewhere. Face it, most likely Saudi Arabia is going to recieve major diplomatic flak after things settle down in Iraq.

 

As for what causes the violence in Islam, I think I know the answer. A long time ago in Baghdad, one of the Abbasid Caliphs tried to impose a more modern philosophy on his country. He forbade any other lines of thinking. Soon, a traditionalist backlash emerged. The struggle continued untill the caliph died, at which point his movement died with him. Basically, Islam is backwards today because a Peter the Great wannabe tried to modernize it and screwed up.

[»ZiGNoTZaG]

i wash my hands of this thread. i wont argue with some foriegners about the state of the country i live in. dont seem to understand that im a patriot. the only thing attcking my country or my brothers will do is make me angry and hatefull.

 

dont worry i understand some of you come from a country that just likes to stay out of everything, i guess thats what they teach you.

 

so i can understand that YOU are afraid of such a bold commitment to make a better world free from stupid s-*BAD WORD*- that dont put any value on life.

which was given away with one comment about how the world is a more dangerous place with the US in iraq. then it dawned on me, they were not talking about OUR fear, they were talking about thier own. gg.

 

do not fear, big brother is watchin the world for you.

[Bueshtak]

world free from stupid s-*BAD WORD*- that dont put any value on life.  

 

Many, many many people would say that same of a vast majority of the U.S citizens my friend. Me not being one of them, I know a lot of americans, and not all of them are arrogant -*BAD WORD*-heads, but I also know a lot of people who are of this opinion. The U.S is a country that believes that it is blessed with power becuase it deserves to be blessed, and it seems that most of its people find this notion very pleasing.

[MonteZuma]

i wash my hands of this thread. i wont argue with some foriegners about the state of the country i live in. dont seem to understand that im a patriot. the only thing attcking my country or my brothers will do is make me angry and hatefull.

In that case, you aren't much different to the Arabs.

 

dont worry i understand some of you come from a country that just likes to stay out of everything, i guess thats what they teach you.

Australia made the third biggest military contribution to the invasion of Iraq. So you don't understand as much as you think you do.

 

so i can understand that YOU are afraid of such a bold commitment to make a better world free from stupid s-*BAD WORD*- that dont put any value on life.

Bold: Probably. Misguided: Definitely.

 

which was given away with one comment about how the world is a more dangerous place with the US in iraq. then it dawned on me, they were not talking about OUR fear, they were talking about thier own. gg.

The world is a more dangerous place for you too. You may blindly believe that Uncle Sam is looking out for you, but most of the rest of the world knows that your country's foreign policy sucks.

 

Iraq was a mistake.

 

Monte.

[»ZiGNoTZaG]

i know whats going on. and it is a big mess. never denied any of that. and as much as you want to pound at it. the most i ever even think about it is the 5 min i look at this forum. might as well give it a rest cuss its a futile gesture. i simply dont look at whos right and whos wrong at those moments in time. too late for that. history will see it.

 

nothing here will change how i see it. the only way i see a safe future is a long and bloody battle with these religious cattle. its too late to wish for anything else then god speed to the troops. the reasons why we got to this point in time are simply irrelivant.

[Guest feef]

>>But you can't fight hate with hate and you can't win the hearts and minds of angry people by force. That is why this war was badly conceived.<<

 

I don't think the reason behind the US action rests upon hate, it rests upon enlightened self-interest. The Islamic state is a dead-end. We have *tolerated* their culture because the notion of traditional empire building is also dead. The economic and political hegemony of the west is a byproduct of its internal success; the west's imperialistic aspirations are grounded in the westernization of the world and the benefits that follow from this for not just the US and other powerful nations, but for every nation involved. The US has absolutely no desire to annex any land, and rarely if ever does it impose westernization through force of arm unless provoked. Well, guess what, the US has been provoked.

 

>>Obviously these middle easterners think differently to germans and japanese. Religion is probably the biggest difference. Something about islam seems to breed violence. I don't think we will ever (foreseeable future) see Iraq develop in the western image. In large part, it will always be something of a backwater of civilisation - the religion factor ensures that.<<

 

I have far more faith in them than you, apparently. It wasn't too long ago that the west was also under the oppressive rule of religious despotism. This all boils down to the seperation of chruch and state. If there won't be a war within the Middle-east's civilization, then there must be a war between civilizations. The west is far stronger... We need to be relentless. We need to push forward and onward and we need to crush them. I don't say this with a sense of superiority or glee, I say it because it needs to be done. We shouldn't drag this out. Get it over with.

 

>>But....the fact is, there was no reason to rush to war. The troubles in the middle east need to be managed differently. Obviously the way the trouble is being managed in Israel/Palestine and Iraq is not conducive to a peaceful settlement.<<

 

We didn't rush to war. This has been a long time coming. My position is we waited far too long, although Saddam and his secular ideology, ironically, did show some hope for he had a dream for Iraq. He wanted it to become a member of the industrialized, westernized world. His methods have always been abhorrent, but he was still a force of westernization. When that changed our strategy also had to change.

 

>>If the inspectors were still in Iraq - thousands of lives and billions of dollars would have been saved. And the Iraq problem would still be contained.<<

 

I disagree. There is a lot of history to this, but it was the same old song and dance and the inspectors were only allowed in because the US military set up a garrison nearby. The garrison wasn't significantly cheaper than the war, nor was it unlikely to resolve anything. We had a lot of men there, we had a reason for going in, so we did it. Great opportunity to finally take the needed actions.

 

>>The threat to the western way of life comes from radicals in Saudi Arabia and Egypt as much as it does from anywhere else - What are the Americans going to do next - Take Cairo? Of course not. It was easier to smash the Iraqi egg with a sledge hammer and feel good about it whilst ignoring the real source of hatred and conflict.<<

 

I think Egypt will contain the situation reasonably enough. Iran should be next before things get too complicated. Why are they even pursuing nuclear reactor technology? They have more oil than God. Absurd. They want the bomb and they're the most extremist Gulf state. We can use Iraq as a base to stage operations (or the threat of operations) on them, and I fully support that action. The world *needs* to be policed and I believe the US and its allies are the best suited for it. In previous threads I've explained why I don't think the UN is up to the task.

[Aileron]

The UN never was designed for the task. It was designed to be a forum for international discussion without infringing on member nations sovreignty. It never was a decision making body, because to enforce its decisions would be to violate nation's sovreignty. This also makes it hard to come to a concensus, because issues never reach a point of action, thus never end.