The Great Faith Debate

[AstroProdigy]

I bring up the bible being contradictory to force you to use your own brain here. There are plenty of reasons to reject homosexuality that actually make plenty of sense, but I personally find them not strong enough to justify it. If you really spend the time to consider the subject without the influence of a book written thousands of years ago and the threat of eternal !@#$%^&*ation and come to the decision that you still think homosexuality is bad then good for you, but I will never consider any view legitimate on the basis of a book whos origins can never be verified with information that largely can never be verified nor made sense of.

 

I find that the "love thy neighbor" bit does not have attached to it "love thy neighbor...unless they're gay". If you can use the bible to justify hating homosexuality without hating homosexuals, even ignoring all the psychological impossibilities of these two beliefs being able to both be right even most of the time then you still are forced to come to the conclusion on the same grounds that you hate every non Christian religion or even certain Christian religions. That's when the psychological aspect comes into play. Can anyone make the argument that they hate Judaism, but not the Jews? Don't !@#$%^&* me that you don't hate homosexuality, you just disagree with it. You think it's evil and unless you like evil you are naturally bound to hate it. That's what takes me back to the hating Judaism analogy. There you go.

[ThunderJam]

I bring up the bible being contradictory to force you to use your own brain here. There are plenty of reasons to reject homosexuality that actually make plenty of sense, but I personally find them not strong enough to justify it. If you really spend the time to consider the subject without the influence of a book written thousands of years ago and the threat of eternal !@#$%^&*ation and come to the decision that you still think homosexuality is bad then good for you, but I will never consider any view legitimate on the basis of a book whos origins can never be verified with information that largely can never be verified nor made sense of.

 

I find that the "love thy neighbor" bit does not have attached to it "love thy neighbor...unless they're gay". If you can use the bible to justify hating homosexuality without hating homosexuals, even ignoring all the psychological impossibilities of these two beliefs being able to both be right even most of the time then you still are forced to come to the conclusion on the same grounds that you hate every non Christian religion or even certain Christian religions. That's when the psychological aspect comes into play. Can anyone make the argument that they hate Judaism, but not the Jews? Don't !@#$%^&* me that you don't hate homosexuality, you just disagree with it. You think it's evil and unless you like evil you are naturally bound to hate it. That's what takes me back to the hating Judaism analogy. There you go.

You keep saying "dont say love thry neighbor" but no one has lol. And again with i hate homos. Why do i bother being here?

 

You specifically say about me "You think [homosexuality] is evil and unless you like evil you are naturally bound to hate it." Would you like to be me? You obviously think you know my thoughts better than I do. Why don't you just run my life too?

Edited November 17, 2007 by ThunderJam

[AstroProdigy]

You told me to find part of the bible that is contradictory to hating gays. I provided you with one.

 

Also on the second part you have provided no argument whatsoever other than "YOU DON'T KNOW ME!"

[ThunderJam]

Actually you didn't give me anything that was contradictory. If you meant the "love your neighbor" was contradictory, here is what i have to say: (which is what i actualyl just posted in the islamic topic as well)

 

If homosexuality is a sin, it is just like any other sin in that it can be paid for by Jesus. It can change. I can't hate them for what I believe is wrong in their lives, because there are many sins I still commit too. The bible says pull the plank out of your own eye before trying to remove the speck frmo your neighbors, and Jesus said about a woman about to be stoned for adultery "Let the man who has not sinned cast the first stone." This is why I can not hate them, for as much as they are condemned by their specific sin, I am too condemned by the sins I have committed. The only difference between the homosexual and myself is that I have found someone who will pay for my sin and help me move on. Since i can not hate them (for reasons previously states), I can still embrace them in hopes that they too can find what I found in Christ. That is why the bible says to love your neighbor. Thought I know something is wrong with them, I can not fault them for it, for i have sinned to, but rather let me pray that they can come to enjoy the mercy that I have found.

 

Even if you don't believe this, does that make more sense?

Edited November 17, 2007 by ThunderJam

[AstroProdigy]

I already responded to this in the other thread too. Summary: Way to go you just showed your bigotry and how Christianity has created it. Homosexuality to you is a disease the same way Christians have said Judaism is a disease preceding such wonderful things as the Inquisition and the Holocaust. It's identical logic that bred the persecution of the Jews and yet it gets repeated for different groups. Sad.

[ThunderJam]

I already responded to this in the other thread too. Summary: Way to go you just showed your bigotry and how Christianity has created it. Homosexuality to you is a disease the same way Christians have said Judaism is a disease preceding such wonderful things as the Inquisition and the Holocaust. It's identical logic that bred the persecution of the Jews and yet it gets repeated for different groups. Sad.

Quite the opposite, If what you understood from my post was the homosexuality was a disease, then you should have also taken out that I considered myself diseased too. This entire debate you guys have pinned me as being a homo-hater, but in my last post I said I called myself as low as they are (or as you think that i think they are). How is that bigoted? I'm calling us both sinners saying they have done nothing worse then me. If you want to call it diseased, we are all diseased by our inherent sin. Each person may have different manifestations of sin, but it comes down to the same thing.

 

Basically im calling out equality among us, and somehow you liken that to the discrimniation that caused the holocaust. I don't understand how your mind works. I thought equality and discrimniation that caused the holocaust were opposites, if this is not the case please enlighten me.

[AstroProdigy]

This entire debate you guys have pinned me as being a homo-hater' date=' but in my last post I said I called myself as low as they are (or as you think that i think they are). How is that bigoted?[/quote']

 

LOL!! Not even going to bother debating you when you easily prove my point yourself. I see now that you honestly just don't get it. If an mexican guy thought a black guy was inferior to white people, but that he was also inferior to white people then that makes it not racist by your logic. You really seem to have muddled up your thinking in the process of trying to justify bigoted beliefs.

[ThunderJam]

This entire debate you guys have pinned me as being a homo-hater' date=' but in my last post I said I called myself as low as they are (or as you think that i think they are). How is that bigoted?[/quote']

 

LOL!! Not even going to bother debating you when you easily prove my point yourself. I see now that you honestly just don't get it. If an mexican guy thought a black guy was inferior to white people, but that he was also inferior to white people then that makes it not racist by your logic. You really seem to have muddled up your thinking in the process of trying to justify bigoted beliefs.

Are you kidding? Your example still puts one person above the others. What I said does not put anyone above the the rest. Are that that blind?

[AstroProdigy]

Not that I want to sound racist here, but I am equating white people to God in this example (not that it's true). The point is your logic crumbles under any serious examination. I understand how you've convinced yourself that this is sound logic through your absolutist premises that the bible is absolutely perfect because it was "written by God", but that just makes you impossible to reason with on these issues and allows you to use preposterously unsound logic like this and expect people to buy it.

 

Also, why is this in it's own separate "Important Topics" topic? If there isn't a process of latest posts putting threads on the top of the list people will miss this discussion.

Edited November 18, 2007 by AstroProdigy

[ThunderJam]

If an mexican guy thought a black guy was inferior to white people, but that he was also inferior to white people then that makes it not racist by your logic. You really seem to have muddled up your thinking in the process of trying to justify bigoted beliefs.

 

 

Not that I want to sound racist here, but I am equating white people to God in this example (not that it's true). The point is your logic crumbles under any serious examination. I understand how you've convinced yourself that this is sound logic through your absolutist premises that the bible is absolutely perfect because it was "written by God", but that just makes you impossible to reason with on these issues and allows you to use preposterously unsound logic like this and expect people to buy it.

 

So if the white man represents God, heres is what your analogy means: If a type X man (lets say a homosexual, that is his sin) thought a type Y man (other sinner, anyone) was inferior to God, but also that he himself, the X man was inferior to God, that makes it not racist by your logic. Are you implying that saying people are inferior to God is being racist? This makes no sense at all astro

[AstroProdigy]

The inferiority aspect relates to the racism analogy not the real life example with you and homosexuals. I think you need to go back with that and look again at the analogy.

 

I can bring up again the fact that you would have to naturally think anyone who is not Christian is immoral with the logic you apply to homosexuals and thus should not have full rights the way you think gay people shouldn't.

Edited November 19, 2007 by AstroProdigy

[ThunderJam]

I'm saying christians are immoral too. Everyone is, no exception.

 

And the reason I can't feel superior for having accepted Jesus is because I havn't done anything. It was all God's work. It's not like I've given millions of dollars to charities, or done something that earned me the right to be saved. I don't deserve it, no one does. That's what the beauty of it is, we don't deserve it, but it's there for us to accept, for free. So evened though I consider myself saved, I'm not above anyone else, because being saved isnt by my own power. In human terms, Im just as bad as everyone.

[SeVeR]

You're naturally superior to animals too, and that was all God's work. You didn't do anything and you're not proud of being superior. You just realise that your quality of life is better, and you have a greater understanding of everything. In Christianity's case you believe you're important enough to get into heaven, you have a one-to-one hotline with God, and you have the answers to the questions of existence. You believe people who haven't found Jesus are "lost", a negative and inferior attribute. You believe they're going to !@#$%^&*, meaning in the eyes of the most perfect being (God) they are judged to be inferior. The very fact that you worship God means that you believe it to be the most worthwhile thing to be doing, and thus people who do not worship God are inferior to you on some level for being unknowledgeable, lost, or rebellious.

[ThunderJam]

I don't think their inferior for being unknowledgable. But the point is they have the opportunity right in front of them too.

[AstroProdigy]

So when Muslims say the same thing they are wrong and extremists?

[ThunderJam]

So when Muslims say the same thing they are wrong and extremists?

Uhm well first off your asking it in a way that implies i said that, I don't appreciate you always trying to put words in my mouth astro.

 

I don't think their inferior for being unknowledgable. But the point is they have the opportunity right in front of them too.

^If you were reffering to that, im fine with muslims thinking that, whats wrong with it? However many of them say the rest the world MUST convert, hence we have jihad... im not quiet sure what you were getting at, be a bit more specific.

Edited November 21, 2007 by ThunderJam

[AstroProdigy]

So if a Muslim tells you that you are going to !@#$%^&* for not accepting Muhammad and limit your rights and tell you the way to get those rights back is by accepting Muhammad that'd be hunky dory? Edited November 21, 2007 by AstroProdigy

[ThunderJam]

Still not sure what you're talking about my limiting my rights, but they can have that view, its fine with me. What i think is wrong is them saying the rest of the world MUST convert to islam and waging wars against non-muslims for these reasons etc.

[AstroProdigy]

So if you were a Christian minority in a Muslim country, say the way homosexuals are a minority here, and those Muslims limited your rights and told you the way to get them back and be saved is by converting then that'd be fine with you?

[ThunderJam]

But we're not doing that here astro. Is the US a christian government? are they denying muslims rights? And even if you make an argument that they are, are we telling them we will give the rights back if they become christian? NO, so wtf...

 

We're not denying them any rights, even if your not looking at it frmo a governmental (is that word..) standpoint. The only possibly thing that I think you might be thinking of is a "right to go to heaven." Well they are doing that to us to, they are sayign we're not going to heaven unless we're muslim.

[AstroProdigy]

Some people would like the US to be a Christian government, mainly your lovable conservative base. We deny gay people rights on the basis of it being morally wrong in the Christian religion. I think you really are having trouble grasping the concept of analogies. You seem to jump from the intended analogy of Christians persecuting homosexuals with Muslims persecuting Christians to Christians persecuting Muslims with Muslims persecuting Christians. Maybe you should take a logic class? Either you've been playing dumb pretending to be unable to understand how analogies work because then that takes the attention away from those analogies or...other options.

[ThunderJam]

Some people would like the US to be a Christian government, mainly your lovable conservative base. We deny gay people rights on the basis of it being morally wrong in the Christian religion. I think you really are having trouble grasping the concept of analogies. You seem to jump from the intended analogy of Christians persecuting homosexuals with Muslims persecuting Christians to Christians persecuting Muslims with Muslims persecuting Christians. Maybe you should take a logic class? Either you've been playing dumb pretending to be unable to understand how analogies work because then that takes the attention away from those analogies or...other options.

I !@#$%^&*umed you were literally talking about muslims because ever since you made the following post about 5-6 posts back, the topic of discussion has been on islam v christianity.

 

So when Muslims say the same thing they are wrong and extremists?

[AstroProdigy]

That's when Muslims say Christianity is sinful the way Christians say homosexuality is sinful. Seems like there's been a waste of several posts solely on the fact that you're having trouble here.

[Memory]

What a fun thread!

 

I'm a Christian of the Chalcedonian school of thought.

[SeVeR]

One of the greatest drives of any human being is the need to improve oneself. Thus, much of our time is spent learning new things, going to the gym, using cosmetics to improve our appearance, or picking up social skills. Indeed, it is natural for us to show our "best face" in order to win over potential mates. The path to perfection is a continuing source of human effort. What then would be the appeal of believing in the combination of human and divine within a single en!@#$%^&*y? Quite obvious i would think. Jesus, our man-god, is the path to perfection that our biology so craves. Christianity is designed to play on our natural biological urges for the purpose of conversion to that system of belief. Why aspire to be succesful and strong in every-day life when perfection, eternal life, moral goodness, ultimate knowledge, safety and security are a leap of faith away? Why do you think the ill, desperate, weak and young turn to religion? Religion is the real temptation.