The Great Faith Debate

[SeVeR]

Earlier someone told us:

Go to a church please. Preferably a church that preaches love and love and more love. It will amaze you. Untell then, stop talking about christiens like they are all the same

 

I then read Astro's post which said:

Anti-gay marriage rights are something supported through CHRISTIANITY so how is it not related to Christianity?

 

And i thought, being against gay marriage is exactly why Christianity is not about "love, love and more love". Gays love eachother and that love is no less significant than the love felt between a man and a woman. Christianity is about loving the few and hating the many. So if you're gay, or have an abortion, or support either of these things, or are a member of another religion, or are an atheist or even a critical agnostic, then prepare to be hated on by hypocrites preaching love like it's the be all and end all when it clearly isn't.

[AstroProdigy]

This may seem confusing, but what I'm getting at is again this type of Christian morality isn't sincere

The thing is astro, you couldn't be more wrong. It's not "we are christians, ugh now we gonna live by what the bible says, be just like jesus, need to agree with the morals the bible says." Rather, its "Looking at things logically, i believe the bible to be true, its morals seem good to me, I want to abide be them." You keep saying non-christians just live by what they think are good morals because they think its the right thing to do, thats the exact same with us.

 

Christianity is with the exception of conversions that mostly happen with poor, uneducated people is pushed on toddlers by conditioning them from very early on because they have no ability to reason whether it is true and then later on in life when they can reason mostly start with the premise "Christianity is true" and work from there rather than allow for free reason.

 

For me it took years to be able to throw off my parents' conditioning and become an agnostic. I can tell you it was a miserable experience realizing people probably die and that's it and there's probably no higher purpose other than what we make of it. I could easily see how some people are too weak to be willing to realize how impossible Christianity is and accept the unknown.

 

What you seem to ignore is the fact that while agnostics and atheists are forced to have morals based on empathy since they don't believe in a watching deity Christians do so because of this deity. This philosophy causes this empathy development to be stunted due to the lack of need and thus Christian morality tends to be more about rigid scripture and less about logic. That's what makes it so dangerous. This is easy to manipulate and someone like Bush can come in and say he's a man of God and people like you will follow him simply because you think he's sincerely Christian.

 

Sever to be fair you can justify anything with the thousands of pages of often conflicting scripture. The way you find a line in the bible opposing gay marriage you find one supporting slavery and you find lots supporting sexism. The groups that reject a literal interpretation or one manipulated for personal hatred are fine, but those are in the minority in the US and when they try to be progressive they are bitterly opposed by the rest.

Edited October 8, 2007 by AstroProdigy

[NBVegita]

I completely disagree with what you are saying about an athiest not being able to have the same "morals" or politcal standpoint of a christian.

 

My mother is wiccan, has been for almost 40 years, and she is 100% against gay marriage. Yet she's also 100% pro choice. Her reasons for being against gay marriage have nothing to do with god or any such creature. She has even had gay friends for a very long time. She has a littany of strong liberal ideas, specially pertaining to women, she was a hippie afterall, and she also has a very strong amount of conservative ideas. I know a lot of people like this.

 

The idea that an athiest can't think gay marriage is wrong is rediculous. I know a few athiests who think the whole idea of homosexuality is terribly gross, and are completely against them getting married. So that makes them "sellouts" because they personally detest the idea of two men or women being together? Or are you trying to state that the only way you can be a true athiest is to be completely liberal?

[ThunderJam]

Earlier someone told us:

Go to a church please. Preferably a church that preaches love and love and more love. It will amaze you. Untell then, stop talking about christiens like they are all the same

 

I then read Astro's post which said:

Anti-gay marriage rights are something supported through CHRISTIANITY so how is it not related to Christianity?

 

And i thought, being against gay marriage is exactly why Christianity is not about "love, love and more love". Gays love eachother and that love is no less significant than the love felt between a man and a woman. Christianity is about loving the few and hating the many. So if you're gay, or have an abortion, or support either of these things, or are a member of another religion, or are an atheist or even a critical agnostic, then prepare to be hated on by hypocrites preaching love like it's the be all and end all when it clearly isn't.

Gay marriage is considered wrong by christians because God created man and woman to be counterparts to each other, and love was specifically designed to be between them. Homosexuality was written to be a perversion of God's creation, etc. However saying we hate gays is wrong. I don't mind gay people. I mean, i personally think its disgusting and wrong and don't wanna hang out with gay people, but if they want to be gay, whatever, they can gay. I would still think this if I wasn't Christian too, so astro saying that our morals only are how they are because of our religion is also wrong. I don't hate people that have abortions either. I mean I think its cruel, but I can understand where their coming from, I think theyre probably making the wrong choice in most cases, but I don't hate them for that.

 

 

This may seem confusing, but what I'm getting at is again this type of Christian morality isn't sincere

The thing is astro, you couldn't be more wrong. It's not "we are christians, ugh now we gonna live by what the bible says, be just like jesus, need to agree with the morals the bible says." Rather, its "Looking at things logically, i believe the bible to be true, its morals seem good to me, I want to abide be them." You keep saying non-christians just live by what they think are good morals because they think its the right thing to do, thats the exact same with us.

 

Christianity is with the exception of conversions that mostly happen with poor, uneducated people is pushed on toddlers by conditioning them from very early on because they have no ability to reason whether it is true and then later on in life when they can reason mostly start with the premise "Christianity is true" and work from there rather than allow for free reason.

 

For me it took years to be able to throw off my parents' conditioning and become an agnostic. I can tell you it was a miserable experience realizing people probably die and that's it and there's probably no higher purpose other than what we make of it. I could easily see how some people are too weak to be willing to realize how impossible Christianity is and accept the unknown.

 

What you seem to ignore is the fact that while agnostics and atheists are forced to have morals based on empathy since they don't believe in a watching deity Christians do so because of this deity. This philosophy causes this empathy development to be stunted due to the lack of need and thus Christian morality tends to be more about rigid scripture and less about logic. That's what makes it so dangerous. This is easy to manipulate and someone like Bush can come in and say he's a man of God and people like you will follow him simply because you think he's sincerely Christian.

 

Sever to be fair you can justify anything with the thousands of pages of often conflicting scripture. The way you find a line in the bible opposing gay marriage you find one supporting slavery and you find lots supporting sexism. The groups that reject a literal interpretation or one manipulated for personal hatred are fine, but those are in the minority in the US and when they try to be progressive they are bitterly opposed by the rest.

Christians' empathy is stunted? What are you smoking?

Sure most Christian parents raise their kids to believe their religion from an early age, I assume you will probably raise your kids to believe that Christianity is wrong. Is there a problem trying to teach that what you believe is right?

 

I completely disagree with what you are saying about an athiest not being able to have the same "morals" or politcal standpoint of a christian.

 

My mother is wiccan, has been for almost 40 years, and she is 100% against gay marriage. Yet she's also 100% pro choice. Her reasons for being against gay marriage have nothing to do with god or any such creature. She has even had gay friends for a very long time. She has a littany of strong liberal ideas, specially pertaining to women, she was a hippie afterall, and she also has a very strong amount of conservative ideas. I know a lot of people like this.

 

The idea that an athiest can't think gay marriage is wrong is rediculous. I know a few athiests who think the whole idea of homosexuality is terribly gross, and are completely against them getting married. So that makes them "sellouts" because they personally detest the idea of two men or women being together? Or are you trying to state that the only way you can be a true athiest is to be completely liberal?

Of course their trying to say that a true atheist is liberal. Just like how they're trying to say that every Christian is a hyprocrital, baby-killing, gay-hating, m!@#$%^&* murderer. They're blanketing me and the others here with general statements when they know nothing of what our faith is really like.

[AstroProdigy]

Gay marriage is considered wrong by christians because God created man and woman to be counterparts to each other' date=' and love was specifically designed to be between them. Homosexuality was written to be a perversion of God's creation, etc. However saying we hate gays is wrong. I don't mind gay people. I mean, i personally think its disgusting and wrong and don't wanna hang out with gay people, but if they want to be gay, whatever, they can gay. I would still think this if I wasn't Christian too, so astro saying that our morals only are how they are because of our religion is also wrong. I don't hate people that have abortions either. I mean I think its cruel, but I can understand where their coming from, I think theyre probably making the wrong choice in most cases, but I don't hate them for that.[/quote']

 

...and Eve was created to SERVE Adam and that justifies sexism. What's your point? Non Christian gay hating is one thing, but most Christians don't want to admit they're bigoted so instead they try to use the Bible to put down homosexuals and that's dangerous because it can be used to put down just about everyone.

 

Christians' empathy is stunted? What are you smoking?

Sure most Christian parents raise their kids to believe their religion from an early age' date=' I assume you will probably raise your kids to believe that Christianity is wrong. Is there a problem trying to teach that what you believe is right?[/quote']

I'm not smoking anything actually. I'm not going to force my kids to believe anything. I am AGNOSTIC which means I have no beliefs. If my kids want to be Christian that's fine as long as they know to tolerate others and learn their morality based on their own logic first. After that they can believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster if they wish.

 

I completely disagree with what you are saying about an athiest not being able to have the same "morals" or politcal standpoint of a christian.

 

You know a lot of people like this? Well then you are unique because people tend to clump their beliefs together. Normally people don't have a lot of widely contradictory views because that would mean they have a split personality disorder. May I ask why your mom is 100% against gay marriage? The fact is that an atheist has to come out and say they hate gay people because unlike Christians they can't use the Bible to hide their bigotry. What would make them sellouts is if they started using the bible as their shield. That way we can all ignore them as bigots on those issues whereas we can't with Christians because they cling to the Bible as their shield and then tell you to "let them have their religious beliefs" so despite the fact that they're logically hateful on homosexuals you can't call them on it because of the bull!@#$%^&* "religious freedom" excuse. That's what makes all of this so much more dangerous.

 

Don't forget that atheists naturally are opposed to creationist theories and think banning evolutionary teaching from schools is disgusting. If you know lots of atheists that disagree with that well then they're not really atheists are they?

Edited October 8, 2007 by AstroProdigy

[SeVeR]

Gay marriage is considered wrong by christians because God created man and woman to be counterparts to each other, and love was specifically designed to be between them.

But how do you know that? I'll elaborate, in the Bible there are a number of very sexist statements against women, i'm sure you've read a few yourself. One doesn't have to conclude that God is sexist, rather we should conclude that the writers of the Bible were sexist and put their own slant on the stories. This is typical of that period in history when women were seen as commodities to be traded. If the Bible was written today it probably wouldn't have such obvious flaws. This doesn't mean the Bible isn't true, it means one has to understand that the Bible writers were human, and being human they were subject the cultural standards of their time.

 

Now, don't you think a bit of anti-gay got into the Bible through the same reasons?

 

I mean, i personally think its disgusting and wrong and don't wanna hang out with gay people, but if they want to be gay, whatever, they can gay.

The question of hate is: Would you sit idley by if a Christian government decided to make being gay illegal? I think that's what defines if you hate someone or not; would you see their rights as a human being taken away.

 

Christians' empathy is stunted? What are you smoking?

You could spend your whole life believing that God gave us morals, which are used for doing good in his honor. Wouldn't you then fail to understand the reasons for those morals? Wouldn't you also fail to use the feeling of empathy to convince yourself to do good things? There would be no need because you'd be serving God who gave you a rule book to follow with no explanations and no appeal to human nature.

 

I assume you will probably raise your kids to believe that Christianity is wrong. Is there a problem trying to teach that what you believe is right?

I will simply tell my kids that nothing is certain and anything is possible. If they listen they won't become Christians, but i'm not indoctrinating them with anything.

[all_shall_perish]

The thing is, question of the poll is 'what is your belief'

 

Believing that there is no god IS a belief.

Having 'no belief' sounds more to me like 'i don't give a !@#$%^&*'

 

atheism does not mean you do not believe in god. atheism is the lack of belief in higher beings. to not believe in higher beings is to deny their existence. to be atheist means you don't believe either way.

Edited October 8, 2007 by all_shall_perish

[ThunderJam]

Since this is a hot topic, ill address the woman serving man deal. Yes you're right the bible does say that God created them to serve man and in many places it specifically says the man is the head of the house, etc. Make sure you also take into consideration the lifestyle differences. The jobs that were available back then were hunting, farming, metalwork, carpentry, none of which are physically easy, and thus the men were obviously more suited to the tasks. Don't peg me as someone who says women aren't capable, I live in a household with several very athletic and capable girls. I'm just stating that at a time when men were bringing in the majority of the income/sustenance for the family, it's more understandable to say woman were "serving" them. Although personally I wouldn't value running the home as any less worthy than working a job.

 

Sever: Government making being gay illegal? I don't see how that's even possible, but ill continue on as if you meant gay marriage illegal. My own opinion on gay marriage is simply that I feel its a shame to change such a long-time tradition of marriage being between a man and a woman. I have no problem with gays living together, and adopting a child (even though I think that might not be good for the kid) because, legally a man and woman could do that too. I just don't really like the idea of the marriage ceremony and all that. I'd prefer something more along the lines of common-law marriages, where your considered married for legal benefits, etc. Touchy topic.

 

And astro, rofl, theres like no christians that want evolution in schools banned lol. You think of us as so oldschool dude. I just wish they acknowledged evolution as a theory in schools. Fine with me if they don't explain creationism as another theory, but at least say that evolution is a theory, and that other theories exist. A whole generation is growing up thinking that evolution is the only idea out there, when the truth is neither evolution or creationism or w/e else can be proven to be true.

[NBVegita]

My mom is 100% against gay marriage because she doesn't see two gay married people as contributing anything to society. I've actually debated the subject with her, but that is her stand point.

 

Simply put, just because you are not Christian doesn't mean you can't have the same view points as a Christian.

 

Well then you are unique because people tend to clump their beliefs together. Normally people don't have a lot of widely contradictory views because that would mean they have a split personality disorder.

 

I'm sorry to say, but that is a very close minded idea. That would be like stating that you cannot have a liberal republican, or a conservative democrat. Case in point how does it equal having a split personality if you say support guns, are pro life, support gay marriage, and support pulling every american troop out of iraq tomorrow? How do abortion and gay marriage contradict each other? Ect.

 

I thought there was a reason why we all think different...

[Bak]

continuum contributes nothing to society, is your mom a fan of making continuum illegal too? making something illegal on the sole basis of it not contributing to society is silly.

 

Tj... the kids are supposed to know that all of science (save mathematical science, maybe) is theory. everything learned in typical science classes like gravity theory, cell theory, atomic theory are theories. By the time evolution is taught in HS, who hasn't heard of the the bible's creation account? A much better lesson to teach kids would be not to trust everything adults say 100% of the time.

[AstroProdigy]

My mom is 100% against gay marriage because she doesn't see two gay married people as contributing anything to society. I've actually debated the subject with her, but that is her stand point.

 

Simply put, just because you are not Christian doesn't mean you can't have the same view points as a Christian.

 

Well then you are unique because people tend to clump their beliefs together. Normally people don't have a lot of widely contradictory views because that would mean they have a split personality disorder.

 

I'm sorry to say, but that is a very close minded idea. That would be like stating that you cannot have a liberal republican, or a conservative democrat. Case in point how does it equal having a split personality if you say support guns, are pro life, support gay marriage, and support pulling every american troop out of iraq tomorrow? How do abortion and gay marriage contradict each other? Ect.

 

I thought there was a reason why we all think different...

 

A liberal republican is one who could easily be a democrat and a conservative democrat is someone who could easily be a republican. It also could mean someone who's liberal on social issues, but conservative on economic issues or conservative on social issues, but liberal on economic issues. Economic and social issues are very different from each so that this belief that the two are intertwined are completely false. Now let me repeat myself. People tend to take similar stances on similar issues as a matter of personal stability.

 

My mother also supports abortion rights, but opposes gay marriage. Then again she is religious and if I told her I didn't believe in a Christian God she'd have a heart attack. It's not that she follows religion with issues like abortion rights, but excuses gay hating with religion as do most Christians who oppose gay marriage. I admit there are a large percentage of Christians who really have no idea why they oppose gay marriage and would have trouble holding any sort of debate on that, but for the ones who know why they oppose it this tends to be a bigoted belief which they use the bible to justify as they could have used to justify slavery 2 centuries ago.

 

Gay people contribute nothing to society? Well then I guess your mom is a hateful person. That being said at least she can't shield her hatred with some book and pretend it's legitimate because of religious freedom the way Christians do.

[ThunderJam]

A liberal republican is one who could easily be a democrat and a conservative democrat is someone who could easily be a republican. It also could mean someone who's liberal on social issues, but conservative on economic issues or conservative on social issues, but liberal on economic issues. Economic and social issues are very different from each so that this belief that the two are intertwined are completely false. Now let me repeat myself. People tend to take similar stances on similar issues as a matter of personal stability.

 

My mother also supports abortion rights, but opposes gay marriage. Then again she is religious and if I told her I didn't believe in a Christian God she'd have a heart attack. It's not that she follows religion with issues like abortion rights, but excuses gay hating with religion as do most Christians who oppose gay marriage. I admit there are a large percentage of Christians who really have no idea why they oppose gay marriage and would have trouble holding any sort of debate on that, but for the ones who know why they oppose it this tends to be a bigoted belief which they use the bible to justify as they could have used to justify slavery 2 centuries ago.

 

Gay people contribute nothing to society? Well then I guess your mom is a hateful person. That being said at least she can't shield her hatred with some book and pretend it's legitimate because of religious freedom the way Christians do.

That's what I wanted to hear. So you can have a conservative democrat, and therefore I could like some of what they say. Just like you could have an atheist who agrees with some topics of mine.

 

And again bashing christians saying we HATE gays. How many times we gotta say that isn't the case? I honestly think you just calculatedly say stuff to try and incense me, your just being plain obnoxious.

Edited October 8, 2007 by ThunderJam

[all_shall_perish]

That's what I wanted to hear. So you can have a conservative democrat, and therefore I could like some of what they say. Just like you could have an atheist who agrees with some topics of mine.

 

And again bashing christians saying we HATE gays. How many times we gotta say that isn't the case? I honestly think you just calculatedly say stuff to try and incense me, your just being plain obnoxious.

 

not to specifically target you thunderjam, i am just going to continue off of it.

 

the problem with labels is that they are typically mis-interpreted by those who label themselves. labels also tend to be gross generalizations and shouldn't be taken too seriously or followed too strictly.

[ThunderJam]

I know, but im the main person arguing my side of the debate so I'm kinda taking the statements as if theyre directed to me.

[AstroProdigy]

Where do I say all Christians hate gays? All I'm saying is that Christians hide their gay hating using the bible as legitimate. You can't debate the bible in politics so it creates an impenetrable defense for an otherwise shockingly weak and hateful argument. That's what makes this dangerous. There's also the fact that people will follow along with gay hating if they think the bible is telling them to (which religious leaders and politicians tell them it does).

 

Also, while a conservative democrat isn't necessarily an oxymoron a religious atheist is and for a lot of the political stances conservatives have that's exactly what would be required.

[Bak]

Christians love gay people, they just don't want them expressing their gayness in public (or private) or having the right to see each other in the hospital or other marriage rights. Gay people don't want a Christian wedding, all they want is a state wedding. in catholisism, at least, there's a difference.

[ThunderJam]

Where do I say all Christians hate gays? All I'm saying is that Christians hide their gay hating using the bible as legitimate. You can't debate the bible in politics so it creates an impenetrable defense for an otherwise shockingly weak and hateful argument. That's what makes this dangerous. There's also the fact that people will follow along with gay hating if they think the bible is telling them to (which religious leaders and politicians tell them it does).

You just said it again. Saying we hide gay hating with the bible is stating that we hate gays. And no one thinks the bible is telling us to HATE gays. How many times do i have to say this? Do you think that you either love or hate someone? Do you see everything in black and white? We think it's wrong, i personally think its gross, but we're not gonna go around refusing to talk to a gay person, committing hate crimes, shooting gay people, you need to stop thinking all christians are these radical people who go nuts over every little thing the bible speaks out about.

 

Christians love gay people, they just don't want them expressing their gayness in public (or private) or having the right to see each other in the hospital or other marriage rights. Gay people don't want a Christian wedding, all they want is a state wedding. in catholisism, at least, there's a difference.

Thank you bak. I don't know about LOVE gay people, but you obviously think the same thing I do. As to marriages, the only thing that really bugs me is the photos and everything of gay people flaunting their weddings. Like you see the outrageous pictures of one in a gown and their leaving the chapel all happy. Give me a break that's like trying to shove their gayness in tradition's face. I don't care if they have some small state ceremony to confirm their legal status together and then go shred their buttholes for the rest of their lives. I just hate them doing a parody act of a religious service.

[NBVegita]

Hey I never said I agree with my mothers stance, that is why I posted that I have long debated it with her, so don't ask me to defend it. But further, she feels a man and a woman produce a much healthier environment for a child to grow up in. Also, naturally a man and a woman can have children. Even if a gay couple adopts, and a heterosexual couple adopts, she feels that its cruel to the child to have to grow up ashamed/embar!@#$%^&*ed/ridiculed because of his or her parents. And for that defence she does have backing that there are thousands of reports showing that having a strong mother and father figure, living with the child, is greatly beneficial to the childs growth and development. That is her reasoning, don't ask me to defend it.

 

Astro, thunder was right about one thing, you do tend to think in black and white, with no grey areas. Even if I'm mostly "liberal" on social policies, I can still believe in some "conservative" social policies. That is what makes us all different. And going back to the Christian/athiest view point, a good amount of christians in the U.S. aren't of the bible belt type. You wouldn't even know if you met one on the street. Not all Christians automatically go along with the bible. I mean there are thousands of instances where an athiest and christian will think alike on the same subject, simply because that is what they both believe in. And as a society our morals coincide with that of most religions. I.E. its not acceptable to rape, steal, murder, commit lechery, adultry ect, ect.

[NBVegita]

Now for thunder, I do agree with some of what you said. I hate when gays flaunt being gay. Listen, I don't walk around the street with my chest puffed out, talking in a deep baratone voice, boasting "ME EAT RED MEAT! ME LIKE WOMEN!" (radical stereotype I know ). So I don't want you walking around the street wearing a bilboard that you're gay. If you're gay, be gay, but like everyone else, keep your sexual orientation to your self. I don't care if you're straight or gay, when you meet someone you shouldn't be able to tell.

 

I've known guys who talked and acted just fine. Then they "came out of the closet". Within 6 months to a year, their voices were substaintially higher, they dressed radically different, and became increasingly flamboyant. I have a problem with that. Since when does taking it up the !@#$%^&* effect your vocal cords?

 

So with that said, I agree with:

 

Like you see the outrageous pictures of one in a gown and their leaving the chapel all happy. Give me a break that's like trying to shove their gayness in tradition's face. I just hate them doing a parody act of a religious service.

 

Sometimes people try to hard for attention.

[AstroProdigy]

TJ: When I say Christians I don't mean ALL Christians I mean the power players and a majority of the more devout. There's also the fact that most Christian religious denominations in the US encourage this.

 

I just hate them doing a parody act of a religious service.

Isn't that their right like anyone else? Are we in Saudi Arabia? If we are then I give this one to you. If not then why is religion suddenly holy and any criticism not allowed? What happened to democracy? Are gay people not afforded the same rights as everyone?

 

but we're not gonna go around refusing to talk to a gay person' date=' committing hate crimes' date=' shooting gay people, you need to stop thinking all christians are these radical people who go nuts over every little thing the bible speaks out about.[/quote'']

And yet there are plenty protestant preachers encouraging hate and on top of that the vast majority of Christian leaders in the US are dead set against the legalization of gay marriage. People follow religious leaders and just like Muslims in Iran become anti-semitic even though the government is only preaching hate of Israel and not Jews in general people in the flocks will hate gay people like they often already do. Thinking someone's entire lifestyle is wrong and hating them is a pretty small leap. I think the lifestyle of Islamic fundamentalists is wrong, but I'm not going to pretend I don't hate them for the sake of politics.

 

NBV:

The tendency is for people to clump most of their views together. All norms have exceptions because otherwise this wouldn't be a human world however every time you can find an exception to a norm doesn't mean discount all because we wouldn't function well otherwise.

 

Isn't it someone's right to try too hard for attention if they're not hurting anyone? It's not just something emo 16 year old white girls can do.

Edited October 9, 2007 by AstroProdigy

[NBVegita]

I hate the emo/goth kids who do the same thing. I never said that they couldn't do it, nor did I say they didn't have the right to, I just said that I hate people who do. That goes for heterosexuals who go out of their way to prove they're heterosexual.

 

If not then why is religion suddenly holy

 

lol, I mean just lol.

 

And I see his point when it comes to gays using a christian ceremony. I mean !@#$%^&* its been pushed so hard that we are not allowed to have a christmas tree in a decent amount of public places, because that might offend non christians, but its ok to hold a ceremony mocked after the christian ceremony, which implicitly denies the action going on?

 

If you're going to defend a public display mocking one religion, we should be allowed to publically mock every religion without consequence.

 

But as you see that is the wonderful double standard in our country. If a white christian heterosexual male, did something to mock a gay, a woman, an ethnicity or religion, that would be an instant hate crime, and completely untolerable. But if you are any of the forementioned you can do what ever you want because its in your "civil rights" to do so. It's all bull!@#$%^&*.

[ThunderJam]

TJ: When I say Christians I don't mean ALL Christians I mean the power players and a majority of the more devout. There's also the fact that most Christian religious denominations in the US encourage this.

You simply don't know what your talking about.

 

I just hate them doing a parody act of a religious service.

Isn't that their right like anyone else? Are we in Saudi Arabia? If we are then I give this one to you. If not then why is religion suddenly holy and any criticism not allowed? What happened to democracy? Are gay people not afforded the same rights as everyone?

Like NB said' date=' what? lol When is religion suddenly holy? your really a case astro

 

but we're not gonna go around refusing to talk to a gay person' date=' committing hate crimes, shooting gay people, you need to stop thinking all christians are these radical people who go nuts over every little thing the bible speaks out about.[/quote']

And yet there are plenty protestant preachers encouraging hate and on top of that the vast majority of Christian leaders in the US are dead set against the legalization of gay marriage. People follow religious leaders and just like Muslims in Iran become anti-semitic even though the government is only preaching hate of Israel and not Jews in general people in the flocks will hate gay people like they often already do. Thinking someone's entire lifestyle is wrong and hating them is a pretty small leap. I think the lifestyle of Islamic fundamentalists is wrong, but I'm not going to pretend I don't hate them for the sake of politics.

You obviously think my beliefs are wrong, do you hate me? I doubt it. Hate is a very strong word my friend. And no, there aren't plenty of protestant preachers teaching it. And even if the majority of the christian leaders are dead set against gay marriage, that STILL doesn't mean they hate gays.

 

Like NB said, you have all had us pegged as these crazy radical neocons when really we are not much different from the rest of you. I really think the reason why you guys say "Every christian i've met has been... x y and z" is because you havn't realized how many seemingly "normal" people you've met are actually Christians.

Edited October 9, 2007 by ThunderJam

[AstroProdigy]

I hate the emo/goth kids who do the same thing. I never said that they couldn't do it, nor did I say they didn't have the right to, I just said that I hate people who do. That goes for heterosexuals who go out of their way to prove they're heterosexual.

 

If not then why is religion suddenly holy

 

lol, I mean just lol.

 

And I see his point when it comes to gays using a christian ceremony. I mean !@#$%^&* its been pushed so hard that we are not allowed to have a christmas tree in a decent amount of public places, because that might offend non christians, but its ok to hold a ceremony mocked after the christian ceremony, which implicitly denies the action going on?

 

If you're going to defend a public display mocking one religion, we should be allowed to publically mock every religion without consequence.

 

But as you see that is the wonderful double standard in our country. If a white christian heterosexual male, did something to mock a gay, a woman, an ethnicity or religion, that would be an instant hate crime, and completely untolerable. But if you are any of the forementioned you can do what ever you want because its in your "civil rights" to do so. It's all bull!@#$%^&*.

 

Don't look at me I think homosexuals should be free to have a Christian marriage (as long as they can get a priest from one of the more progressive denominations to do it) AND Christians should be free to put up Christmas trees.

 

It depends where you are, though. In Alabama you find yourself in trouble if you try to show atheism, but in massachusetts you find yourself in trouble if you try to show Christianity. When it comes to religion I think you should be free to mock whatever it is considering it is something people are free to follow anyway. With regards to sexuality, gender, or ethnicity, however you cannot choose. I personally think everyone should lighten up, but then again I am a white, heterosexual male and am willing to admit I never end up on the receiving end of this and thus have no idea what it's like.

[AstroProdigy]

You simply don't know what your talking about.

Great argument.

 

Like NB said' date=' what? lol When is religion suddenly holy? your really a case astro[/quote']

Great argument again. Despite the fact that you think Christianity should be something you are not allowed to insult the way they do things in such wonderful countries as Saudi Arabia and Iran let's purposely pretend to not understand what I just said so you don't have to admit it. Maybe gays only should be banned from criticizing religion?

 

You obviously think my beliefs are wrong' date=' do you hate me? I doubt it. Hate is a very strong word my friend. And no' date=' there aren't plenty of protestant preachers teaching it. And even if the majority of the christian leaders are dead set against gay marriage, that STILL doesn't mean they hate gays.[/quote'']

I think beliefs that involve thinking a person's entire lifestyle (that they cannot even choose) is evil simply because of a few lines in the bible is wrong. There aren't plenty of protestant preachers teaching that gay people fundamentally live an evil and sinful life? Now who simply doesn't know what he's talking about. When you think the way someone lives their life is evil then making the leap that this person is also evil is not hard. Don't play a game of words here.

 

When did I say you were a neo con? Do you know what a neo con is? You are a religious conservative. Neo cons care about world domination, not some book written thousands of years ago. You may have thought Bush was different when he ran for president, but the fact that he pushed the neo con line more than anything else just goes to show you can never trust a Christian at his word if he doesn't back it up logically.

[ThunderJam]

You obviously think my beliefs are wrong' date=' do you hate me? I doubt it. Hate is a very strong word my friend. And no, there aren't plenty of protestant preachers teaching it. And even if the majority of the christian leaders are dead set against gay marriage, that STILL doesn't mean they hate gays.[/quote']

I think beliefs that involve thinking a person's entire lifestyle (that they cannot even choose) is evil simply because of a few lines in the bible is wrong. There aren't plenty of protestant preachers teaching that gay people fundamentally live an evil and sinful life? Now who simply doesn't know what he's talking about. When you think the way someone lives their life is evil then making the leap that this person is also evil is not hard. Don't play a game of words here.

You're the only one playing word games astro. You say the preachers are teaching we should hate gays, and then you back up a step and say they are just teaching that gays lifestyle is morally wrong. Theres a difference. Find me a protestant preacher who is preaching that we should HATE gays and I will paypal you a couple bucks.