The Great Faith Debate

[ThunderJam]

Who are you voting for and why? I know you were too young to vote for Bush, but I bet you would have. Don't deny it now that he's unpopular either. Would you vote for an atheist? I want you to be honest with this one. Take your time and think about it. No point to lie on a forum.

I don't see any reason I would lie. I would have voted for Bush in his first election, but voted against him after his first term. Also, I would not have any problem voting for an atheist, as I don't think the candidates religion really matters. In my mind being Christian would be a plus, but it would more be a plus because I would ensure me (possibly unjustly) that the candidate has good morals. Sure, I'd vote for an atheist as long as he has morals and stances that I still like.

[Bak]

why in the poll is there a distinction between none and atheist?

[JDS]

nice beef^

 

im not to sure what the 'great debate' is

 

some people think that way.. other people think this way..

 

you cant really debate black and white

[NBVegita]

why in the poll is there a distinction between none and atheist?

 

Simply because you do not claim a religion doesn't mean you don't believe god exists. You could belive in "God" but not any religion.

[Bak]

that's a bit strange... "What are your beliefs?" "None, but I believe in God."

[NBVegita]

Exactly.

 

You can believe in an a diety, or dieties without believing that christianity, judaism ect. are correct, or believing in them at all.

Edited October 5, 2007 by NBVegita
added the "in"

[Falcoknight]

Some people believe in their own, personal God of sorts.

[JDS]

then whats the debate, are we not just sheep if we belive in organized religion

[AstroProdigy]

So being a Christian automatically makes you moral and if you're atheist you have to prove morality? An atheist would not likely be willing to allow the teaching of creationism and the like in schools so I guess you're making it impossible for an atheist to get your vote, but without actually saying it. Christians always have good morals, after all. Again you make the argument that atheists can't be trusted, but in a sneaky way. I find atheists and agnostics tend to be even more moral than Christians because they discover morality for themselves instead of only doing it half !@#$%^&*ed because they think God is watching. I don't know about you, but being a good person just for the sake of being a good person and thinking of how your actions affect others seems a lot more sincere than being a good person for fear of eternal !@#$%^&*ation. Don't bull!@#$%^&* me that the Bible doesn't say you need to be a good person to get into Heaven and you just need faith because that's the biggest scam I've ever seen when it comes to Protestants twisting the Bible for their own ends.

[Bak]

i agree... and they pitch it as a strong point... it's what sets them apart from every other religion

[ThunderJam]

So being a Christian automatically makes you moral and if you're atheist you have to prove morality? An atheist would not likely be willing to allow the teaching of creationism and the like in schools so I guess you're making it impossible for an atheist to get your vote, but without actually saying it. Christians always have good morals, after all. Again you make the argument that atheists can't be trusted, but in a sneaky way. I find atheists and agnostics tend to be even more moral than Christians because they discover morality for themselves instead of only doing it half !@#$%^&*ed because they think God is watching. I don't know about you, but being a good person just for the sake of being a good person and thinking of how your actions affect others seems a lot more sincere than being a good person for fear of eternal !@#$%^&*ation. Don't bull!@#$%^&* me that the Bible doesn't say you need to be a good person to get into Heaven and you just need faith because that's the biggest scam I've ever seen when it comes to Protestants twisting the Bible for their own ends.

Good morals in my perspective, aka morals that are similar to me. Obviously I'm not saying everything person who calls themself a christian just has good morals, but if I think a political candidate is a genuine christian, they his morals will probably be similar to mine, which will be a positive reason for me to support them.

 

And yes the bible does say its by faith, read before you say we twist everything. It does say to do good works and everything else to, but it does not say that it is these thigns that get you into heaven. And having good morals because "God is watching" is not our mindset either. AGAIN you are bringing up tactics of old fire-and-brimstone teachers who tried to scare you into belief. I believe I should act well because I'm tryign to honor God through my actions. If we are made in God's image, we should try to live as close to his standards as possible, and since God is holy, that standard is one that we can continue to improve towards forever.

[Bak]

when you put it like that it doesn't sound too bad either

[SeVeR]

Honoring God is a flimsy reason to be good because your belief in God is based on faith. If/when your faith wavers will your incentive to be a good person waver too? I don't like living alongside ticking time-bombs...

 

What of empathy? Do you think that a supernatural reason for being good hinders the natural development of empathy? For example, you don't try and relate to someone elses situation because you immediately feel a duty towards God and act on that duty alone.

[AstroProdigy]

So you need someone with Christian values, but you WOULD support an atheist as long as he has Christian values? See it now? You'd never support an atheist because for them to have the values you prefer they'd have to become Christian!

 

Faith in Jesus means wanting to be closer to him and being a good person is how you do it. If you don't help others then you don't REALLY have faith either.

 

Who's to say someone can't make up his faith in order to get the votes of a naive Christian right? Why else do you think every politician talks about their faith in hopes of getting this group that ignores bad policy as long as the candidate has faith?

 

I agree with Sever. It seems to me Christians have trouble with being good wholeheartedly because from day 1 they've been raised to do it solely because someone's watching. Imagine if something happened to rock the Christian world's faith in God. What would happen then? Would there be m!@#$%^&* chaos? Face it you need secularists to keep the world stable. Without it Christians and Muslims would be committing m!@#$%^&* genocides on each other.

Edited October 7, 2007 by AstroProdigy

[wub]

Go to a church please. Preferably a church that preaches love and love and more love. It will amaze you. Untell then, stop talking about christiens like they are all the same.

[ThunderJam]

So you need someone with Christian values, but you WOULD support an atheist as long as he has Christian values? See it now? You'd never support an atheist because for them to have the values you prefer they'd have to become Christian!

 

Faith in Jesus means wanting to be closer to him and being a good person is how you do it. If you don't help others then you don't REALLY have faith either.

 

Who's to say someone can't make up his faith in order to get the votes of a naive Christian right? Why else do you think every politician talks about their faith in hopes of getting this group that ignores bad policy as long as the candidate has faith?

 

I agree with Sever. It seems to me Christians have trouble with being good wholeheartedly because from day 1 they've been raised to do it solely because someone's watching. Imagine if something happened to rock the Christian world's faith in God. What would happen then? Would there be m!@#$%^&* chaos? Face it you need secularists to keep the world stable. Without it Christians and Muslims would be committing m!@#$%^&* genocides on each other.

I didn't say as long as he has "christian values." If I like his stances on topics, and if I agree with his morals, That's a plus, he doesn't have to be christian. You don't have to be a christian at all to have the morals or the stances. Half of everyone's posts have been saying that non-christians are still good people, and now your saying that they woudl have to be christian to have my morals? Your dumb. You say that christians try to be good like everyone else in one post, and next your saying that non-christians couldn't have the same morals as christians? Which is it? All you do is twist words astro, you play devils advocate, try to bring out the worst and pick apart every post, and you don't acknowledge any of the good, grounded logic we use.

 

And AGAIN you say we were raised from day 1 to be good "because God is watching." DID YOU EVEN READ MY LAST POST? DO YOU HAVE EYES? Hopefully this is going to be the last post I make in this topic, because im tired of arguing with you when you just ignore my statements, and continue !@#$%^&*uming and typing crap. A debate goes two ways, and your only talking and not listening.

[AstroProdigy]

Again you are dancing around what you're really getting at. If his stances are identical to the ones in the Bible you will support an atheist. However, last time I checked atheists don't base their decisions on the bible therefore it's impossible. There are two different kinds of morals here. One is the no brainers like don't kill or steal. The other is the Christian morals like no sex before marriage, no abortion, no gay marriage, and the like. I know you don't want to admit it to yourself that you'd never vote for an atheist, but you really need to peel back the layers in your stances here. The better you know yourself the stronger you are as a person.

 

Like I said there are many morals that are in the bible, but don't make real sense to atheists. How logical can you be when you are forced to consider a book full of crazy stories as the most basic truth in your life. You want to ignore the fact that to really try to be closer to Jesus you have to try to emulate him and thus get into heaven, yet for the purpose of not admitting this similarity you have with Catholics and admitting the need to do good things for Christians tends to be on a "God's watching basis" you deny it.

 

Let's have a little lesson shall we. If I admire someone, I try to emulate that person. That's why people expect sports stars to be good role models because kids will emulate them. The same goes with Jesus. If you really love Jesus then you have to emulate him or otherwise your love is false. I try to be moral because it's the right thing to do and because I consider the repercussions, but Christians are taught to do it because 1) Jesus did it so you should too and 2) If you don't truly love Jesus and thus try to be like him then you don't have true faith and to !@#$%^&* you go.

 

Sorry If I'm knocking down some of the basic tenets of your beliefs here and I'm sure you won't even bother to seriously read it, but there you go. If you really believe what you're writing here then you really aren't a good Christian.

Edited October 7, 2007 by AstroProdigy

[The Real Picard]

I just wont bring myself to read any of the post or replies on this one. Being a sound man of faith, a Christian, it is written that few will really make it to heaven, I'm quite suprised that as of this reply there are 20% who claim to be christians, I believe that the actual percentage of the world making it truly into heaven after the end of days will be more like 5 to 7%. The only way to heaven is by the blood of Jesus Christ. PERIOD.

 

The evidence is out there, not only in The Bible, but other historical do!@#$%^&*ents that have stood the test of time, however The Bible does make it quite clear. I would challenge anyone to try and disprove it, and therein you might just become one of the Saved ones.

 

Peace to all, IHN I am,

The Real Picard

[AstroProdigy]

Great just come in and don't read anything and make an outrageous claim and leave forever.

[all_shall_perish]

Simply because you do not claim a religion doesn't mean you don't believe god exists. You could belive in "God" but not any religion.

 

atheism is the complete, 100% absence of belief in god(s). atheism is the exact opposite of theism (hence the prefix of the letter 'a')

thus, for the purposes of this poll, the options "none" and "atheist" are equivalent.

 

to believe in a god or gods, but not tie yourself to any sort of organized religion can be considered simply theism. those who follow religions more closely can also be classified as theist however.

Edited October 7, 2007 by all_shall_perish

[Samapico]

The thing is, question of the poll is 'what is your belief'

 

Believing that there is no god IS a belief.

Having 'no belief' sounds more to me like 'i don't give a !@#$%^&*'

[JDS]

god hates us all

[ThunderJam]

Again you are dancing around what you're really getting at. If his stances are identical to the ones in the Bible you will support an atheist. However, last time I checked atheists don't base their decisions on the bible therefore it's impossible. There are two different kinds of morals here. One is the no brainers like don't kill or steal. The other is the Christian morals like no sex before marriage, no abortion, no gay marriage, and the like. I know you don't want to admit it to yourself that you'd never vote for an atheist, but you really need to peel back the layers in your stances here. The better you know yourself the stronger you are as a person.

 

Like I said there are many morals that are in the bible, but don't make real sense to atheists. How logical can you be when you are forced to consider a book full of crazy stories as the most basic truth in your life. You want to ignore the fact that to really try to be closer to Jesus you have to try to emulate him and thus get into heaven, yet for the purpose of not admitting this similarity you have with Catholics and admitting the need to do good things for Christians tends to be on a "God's watching basis" you deny it.

 

Let's have a little lesson shall we. If I admire someone, I try to emulate that person. That's why people expect sports stars to be good role models because kids will emulate them. The same goes with Jesus. If you really love Jesus then you have to emulate him or otherwise your love is false. I try to be moral because it's the right thing to do and because I consider the repercussions, but Christians are taught to do it because 1) Jesus did it so you should too and 2) If you don't truly love Jesus and thus try to be like him then you don't have true faith and to !@#$%^&* you go.

 

Sorry If I'm knocking down some of the basic tenets of your beliefs here and I'm sure you won't even bother to seriously read it, but there you go. If you really believe what you're writing here then you really aren't a good Christian.

So much for not going to post any more :/ Guess I can't bring myself to back down as long as some people keep bashing.

 

You can be pro-life and no-sex-before-marriage and no-gay-marriage, without being a christian. I would still vote for someone who was pro-choice If i liked enough other things about them. You put words in my mouth saying "I know you don't want to admit to yourself that you'd never really vote for an atheist." Stop bull!@#$%^&*ting me. I know myself perfectly fine, and am a strong person or else I wouldn't be posting here arguing my faith.

 

And yes we think we shoudl try to emulate Jesus, but that doesn't mean that we don't see the truth in every other reason for being moral. You say "I try to be moral because its the right ting to do and because I consider the repercussions." I'm really no different, I think its the right thing to do, and part of that rightness, in my opinion, is because it is emulating Jesus. And you make emulating Jesus out to be this burdensome duty. It's not like religion is forced on me and it's a weight to emulate him. I want to. If you believe someone was perfect and sinless and the son of god, why not want to be like him? Just like you said earlier, "If I admire someone, I try to emulate that person." That's exactly what us christians are doing, and your mocking us for it and calling it a flaw.

[AstroProdigy]

And yes we think we shoudl try to emulate Jesus, but that doesn't mean that we don't see the truth in every other reason for being moral. You say "I try to be moral because its the right ting to do and because I consider the repercussions." I'm really no different, I think its the right thing to do, and part of that rightness, in my opinion, is because it is emulating Jesus. And you make emulating Jesus out to be this burdensome duty. It's not like religion is forced on me and it's a weight to emulate him. I want to. If you believe someone was perfect and sinless and the son of god, why not want to be like him? Just like you said earlier, "If I admire someone, I try to emulate that person." That's exactly what us christians are doing, and your mocking us for it and calling it a flaw.

 

You can be pro-life and no-sex-before-marriage and no-gay-marriage' date=' without being a christian. I would still vote for someone who was pro-choice If i liked enough other things about them.[/quote']

I agree you ca be anti-abortion without being a Christian, but when it comes to certain other issues it is a religious argument that opposes it. Anti-gay marriage rights are something supported through CHRISTIANITY so how is it not related to Christianity? What you're secretly hinting at here is that things like being pro-choice and pro-gay marriage are all big minuses, but any one can be overcome by taking the Christian stance on the other issues. The problem with that is an atheist would NOT look to take the Christian stance on issues unless 1) that is a common stance between atheists and Christians or 2) He/She is a sellout to his/her beliefs for political purposes. What you're trying to convince other people, but mostly trying to convince yourself is that an atheist will never conform quite right to what you want and if they did they probably wouldn't waste their opportunities admitting to atheism since it is a big handicap in the American political world.

 

The problem is many if not most Christians don't do good deeds because it's the right thing to do either wholly or partially. I simply state that when you admire someone you emulate them. Emulating someone isn't the problem. It's when your action isn't sincere in and of itself, but for the sake of being like someone you admire that's dangerous. There's plenty of room for interpretation of emulating someone and when you're told by an influential person that it's the way they want you to do it you will because you build good deeds on the basis of being like someone 2000 years ago instead of thinking it through and doing it logically.

 

This may seem confusing, but what I'm getting at is again this type of Christian morality isn't sincere and while it can be great at certain times it can also tend to turn to disaster because for one it depresses free thought and since God doesn't talk to us directly to tell us what's right a bad person can manipulate Christians much more easily than atheists or especially agnostics. This also means there are arbitrary "morals" that can be translated from the bible that are actually just Christianity being imposed on others. You can translate lots of messed up things this way. Slavery and sexism were justified using the bible and sexism and homophobia are still being practiced and spread with the use of the bible. There are countless other arbitrary "moralities" coming from that countlessly translated and respoken works and even stuff that comes from people way after into that 2000 year old book. What ends up happening is to not be banking on a likely vastly mistranslated bible you must reject all those crazy details and considering Christians don't do this (the conservative ones at least) this leaves huge room for manipulation.

[ThunderJam]

This may seem confusing, but what I'm getting at is again this type of Christian morality isn't sincere

The thing is astro, you couldn't be more wrong. It's not "we are christians, ugh now we gonna live by what the bible says, be just like jesus, need to agree with the morals the bible says." Rather, its "Looking at things logically, i believe the bible to be true, its morals seem good to me, I want to abide be them." You keep saying non-christians just live by what they think are good morals because they think its the right thing to do, thats the exact same with us.