The Great Faith Debate

[Bak]

non-catholic christians, as far as I understand, believe that believing that jesus died on the cross for everyone's sins is a sufficient and necessary of getting into heaven.

[wub]

I have read every line and every word in the topic sence is started, and simaler topics that have been created in this thread. Although i often read i rarely write down what i am thinking at the time. I guess its time to bring what i think to the table.

 

Sever a few pages back you stated that

 

3. I've had someone tell me they saw a wija-board move, and someone else tell me that they left their body during meditation and floated into the next room. In both instances i asked them many questions, but i was never convinced because i didn't see it with my own eyes. People believe what they want to believe, and if you want to believe in God then you're begging to be made a fool out of.

 

You are also begging to be made fun of, for simply not believing in anything. (for in fact you believe in something and that is nothing)

 

Did any of you dream when you where a kid? Half asleep in second period wondering what in the world life was about? Dream of having it all? flying around saving people? magical powers? Did you ever believe in something more.......something more then just "this"

 

I believe in Christianity i believe in jesus. i believe he did miricals. i believe There is A God (one). But more then all that i believe in love.

 

Not sappy "i love you you love me lets get married bla bla"

 

As hard of time i have had believing God and the bible (honestly some days i do belive its all right, others i dont)

I do know that there is power in believing in something. Something more.

 

It gets you off your feet, inspires you to be more then someone laying on your couch doing nothing for the rest of your life.

 

If Christianity gives people the inspiration to go out and love there neighbor, to change the world (in love)(NOT for there own means) then what is the problem with it?

 

Matthew 22:37-39

37And He replied to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind (intellect).(A)

 

38This is the great (most important, principal) and first commandment.

 

39And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as [you do] yourself

 

If more christens went around focusing this verse, the christain name would have a very different "name" to it.

 

 

Well yes there are sick twisted people in EVERY part of the world who claim to believe one thing and turn and do another.

 

But thats life.

 

Maybe if more people believed in something more (love)(God)(etc) this world wouldnt be such a torn up place.

 

Dreaming never hurt any one.

[SeVeR]

QUOTE

3. I've had someone tell me they saw a wija-board move, and someone else tell me that they left their body during meditation and floated into the next room. In both instances i asked them many questions, but i was never convinced because i didn't see it with my own eyes. People believe what they want to believe, and if you want to believe in God then you're begging to be made a fool out of.

 

 

You are also begging to be made fun of, for simply not believing in anything.

I live by my knowledge of probable outcomes, i guess that might be what you would call a belief. It's probable that you and i will wake up alive tomorrow and continue this discussion, but I don't accept probable outcomes as truth. Even if you happen to say something true, you would not even know you had done so. There is always some reason to doubt, no matter how ridiculous that doubt may be. I can only conclude that true wisdom lies in the acknowledgement that all we know for certain is that we know nothing else for certain. Religion in it's very first principle (faith) asks me to betray MY very first principle.

 

What more obvious claim to ignorance does a system of beliefs need than to ask me for faith.

[AstroProdigy]

Believing in something is fine for you, but if you only believe for the purpose of comfort and the fear of death then your faith is false and if God existed he would see right through it anyway. If Christianity really taught people to love their neighbors then Christians wouldn't be the biggest m!@#$%^&* murderers in history. The fact is that people will do whatever they want to do regardless of religion and what ends up happening is religions like these are simply used as an excuse to do some really messed up things.

 

I admitted to myself years ago that God can't exist simply because I wished him to. There is no wishing star. Things are the way they are no matter how much you dislike them and just because cancer is terrible and I fear it doesn't mean I will stop believing it exists. The same goes for death. People invent an afterlife so that they don't really die because they don't want to stop existing. That's the major appeal Christianity has anyway other than the eternal !@#$%^&* threat. Maybe if people focused on doing the right thing because it's a good idea instead of because there is some being watching them and keeping score then people would be sincerely good.

 

Oh and most people believe in something more and that hasn't done anything to stop violence. The percentage of nonbelievers is small and with the exception of Communism (which had become an ideological movement similar to western, Christian ideologies) atheists and agnostics are the most reasonable people in the world.

 

Hitler dreamed of new Jews because "the Jews killed Christ". That didn't hurt any one? Beliefs are fine, but when you let them have influence on the world instead of rational thought that's when all the bad things happen.

 

Edit: Hitler dreamed of NO Jews*

Edited October 3, 2007 by AstroProdigy

[Falcoknight]

"Science without religion is lame, and religion without science is blind" - Albert Einstein.

[wub]

sever i wasnt asking for your faith....i was telling you to shut the !@#$%^&* up in the most loving of ways

 

Falco key word "religion" religion is a set of rules. not a belief

 

Believing in something is fine for you, but if you only believe for the purpose of comfort and the fear of death then your faith is false and if God existed he would see right through it anyway. If Christianity really taught people to love their neighbors then Christians wouldn't be the biggest m!@#$%^&* murderers in history. The fact is that people will do whatever they want to do regardless of religion and what ends up happening is religions like these are simply used as an excuse to do some really messed up things.

 

I don't believe in Christianity because im scared of going to "!@#$%^&*". honestly i hate that christens even bring that up in church its quite the oppisate of what they claim to be. Why scare people into believing?

 

I believe because i know it changes people, i know it brings peace, i know thats its more then all the !@#$%^&* thats going on around me. With out it, im not sure where i would be. Probably in a far worse state of life than i am right now. I have seen my friends who where going no where in life and found peace in worship and in God.

 

I don't see a problem with this?

 

Honestly i dont see how alot of you dont believe in something more, i cant not walk out side look around and say "up this is all chance, its random it has no point" it all feels so connected to me. Maybe because im a very creative person?

 

I admitted to myself years ago that God can't exist simply because I wished him to

 

I think he can. No one will ever be able to prove God is real. They will never be able to prove he isn't real. So if you believe he is real, then he is. im sure im going to get some dumb !@#$%^&* remark like "well you can believe money is going to fall out of the sky but it isnt" True. BUT God is not an object hes not something you can put your hand on, and only a select few have ever claimed to see him. but he is still there.

 

through me in a loony bin.

[ThunderJam]

Believing in something is fine for you, but if you only believe for the purpose of comfort and the fear of death then your faith is false and if God existed he would see right through it anyway. If Christianity really taught people to love their neighbors then Christians wouldn't be the biggest m!@#$%^&* murderers in history. The fact is that people will do whatever they want to do regardless of religion and what ends up happening is religions like these are simply used as an excuse to do some really messed up things.

For heaven's sake how many times can't you guys incorrectly use this as an argument against me and the other's arguing on Christianity's behalf. I believe that everyone arguing for christianity here, maybe except wub, who I don't know, is a protestant. When you talk of all the persecution and the inquisition, and all of that IT WAS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WHICH everyone knows has been corrupt. They even persecuted the Protestants, so stop trying to use this argument. In my experience, very very very few catholics are genuine Christians. Most them havn't read the bible, and jsut think that by mindlessly attending a service once a week and saying a few repe!@#$%^&*ive prayers, they automatically get into heaven. Think again.

[SeVeR]

sever i wasnt asking for your faith....i was telling you to shut the !@#$%^&* up in the most loving of ways

So your comment had no point other than to say "right back at ya". I'm sorry, i thought you were trying to make a point that you could back up. Most of us got beyond that level of argument in primary school.

[NBVegita]

When you talk of all the persecution and the inquisition, and all of that IT WAS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WHICH everyone knows has been corrupt.

 

Protestants were simply a derivative of the midevil Roman Catholic Christians. Protestants were not even around during the Crusades. As you previously stated: "Did the ancestor's split ruin their future generations chance at getting into heaven? We simply can not know." You are stating that it is possible that God holds men accountable for the mistakes of their ancestors, well men also hold men accountable for the mistakes of their ancestors. It really does not matter what denomination you are, as all denominations are forms of Christianity, and a strike against Christianity is a strike against Christianity.

 

Minus the 4 major sects I believe in early 2000's there were stated to be over 30,000 denominations of christianity. Now there is even more. No matter which of those sects and denominations that you are, you are still a Christian, plain and simple.

 

If you say that seems intolerant, well it's no more intolerant that the god you worship.

[Bak]

They even persecuted the Protestants, so stop trying to use this argument. In my experience, very very very few catholics are genuine Christians. Most them havn't read the bible, and jsut think that by mindlessly attending a service once a week and saying a few repe!@#$%^&*ive prayers, they automatically get into heaven. Think again.

 

protestants also prosecuted catholics. Also, what makes you think protestants are so special? Catholics don't teach that attending service once a week and saying repe!@#$%^&*ive prayers gets you into heaven. But protestants do teach that simple belief is all it takes. I mean, nothing in our world even happens simply because you believe one way or the other. How great of a religion that is, where simply by thinking you can get to heaven.

[AstroProdigy]

I believe because i know it changes people' date=' i know it brings peace, i know thats its more then all the !@#$%^&* thats going on around me. With out it, im not sure where i would be. Probably in a far worse state of life than i am right now. I have seen my friends who where going no where in life and found peace in worship and in God.[/quote']

Again you're believing for comfort here. It's fine for you to believe if you're weak willed and can't accept the alternative, but what always happen in the US is Christians try to push their beliefs on other people and the fact that someone started a thread about how non Christians don't belong in America is proof. It's also not the first time I've heard it from a Christian. However, stop saying Christianity brings peace because that is a pretty blatant lie and you have to admit that to yourself if you know anything about history.

 

I think he can. No one will ever be able to prove God is real. They will never be able to prove he isn't real. So if you believe he is real' date=' then he is. im sure im going to get some dumb !@#$%^&* remark like "well you can believe money is going to fall out of the sky but it isnt" True. BUT God is not an object hes not something you can put your hand on, and only a select few have ever claimed to see him. but he is still there.[/quote']

So you believe God must exist because of 1) An appeal to ignorance; it is impossible to disprove God therefore God MUST exist and 2) Neverland logic where if you think you can fly then you can as long as you have some magic pixie dust (the bible) and flying is an intangible thing too just like God. I'll tell you what. I'll give you some magic pixie dust and then just believe you can fly and jump off a 12 story building.

 

When you talk of all the persecution and the inquisition' date=' and all of that IT WAS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WHICH everyone knows has been corrupt.[/quote']

Oh so Protestants haven't done the same? Who had the Salem Witch trials? Who massacred the Native Americans in the name of "converting the heathens? Germany is a mostly Protestant country that committed the Holocaust and Jew hating was based on and encouraged by the church because "the Jews killed Jesus". Britain as a Protestant committed how many genocides during imperialism in the name of "converting the heathens"? The KKK hates the Jews. What religious denomination are they again?

[NBVegita]

Oh so Protestants haven't done the same? Who had the Salem Witch trials? Who massacred the Native Americans in the name of "converting the heathens? Germany is a mostly Protestant country that committed the Holocaust and Jew hating was based on and encouraged by the church because "the Jews killed Jesus". Britain as a Protestant committed how many genocides during imperialism in the name of "converting the heathens"? The KKK hates the Jews. What religious denomination are they again?

 

Well noted.

[wub]

Again you're believing for comfort here. It's fine for you to believe if you're weak willed and can't accept the alternative, but what always happen in the US is Christians try to push their beliefs on other people and the fact that someone started a thread about how non Christians don't belong in America is proof. It's also not the first time I've heard it from a Christian. However, stop saying Christianity brings peace because that is a pretty blatant lie and you have to admit that to yourself if you know anything about history.

 

People change....stop judging people on something they did hundreds of years ago. EVERY ONE has messed up, isnt it more important to look at how there changing?

[NBVegita]

People change....stop judging people on something they did hundreds of years ago. EVERY ONE has messed up, isnt it more important to look at how there changing?

 

The problem is that there are still a lot of people like Pull who walk around saying we're all !@#$%^&*ed unless we convert to Christianity. Christians are still trying to impose their ideas upon non Christians. All of these tragic events started off harmless.

 

You can't expect people to blindly trust a group or groups responsible for many of the man caused travesties of the past two millenia.

[ThunderJam]

You are stating that it is possible that God holds men accountable for the mistakes of their ancestors, well men also hold men accountable for the mistakes of their ancestors. It really does not matter what denomination you are, as all denominations are forms of Christianity, and a strike against Christianity is a strike against Christianity.

 

Minus the 4 major sects I believe in early 2000's there were stated to be over 30,000 denominations of christianity. Now there is even more. No matter which of those sects and denominations that you are, you are still a Christian, plain and simple.

Almost all of Christianity falls under the category of protestants or catholics. In your 30,000 denominations your including thousands of groups that have created their own name for the tiny littledoctrine variations, which do not have any serious effect on the underlying message of the gospel. The major doctrinal differences are between catholics and protestants, as categories.

 

Since we're all under christianity, and christianity takes a strike, we all get a strike? That's the same mentality behind racism and I think that is innapropriate.

 

 

They even persecuted the Protestants, so stop trying to use this argument. In my experience, very very very few catholics are genuine Christians. Most them havn't read the bible, and jsut think that by mindlessly attending a service once a week and saying a few repe!@#$%^&*ive prayers, they automatically get into heaven. Think again.

 

protestants also prosecuted catholics. Also, what makes you think protestants are so special? Catholics don't teach that attending service once a week and saying repe!@#$%^&*ive prayers gets you into heaven. But protestants do teach that simple belief is all it takes. I mean, nothing in our world even happens simply because you believe one way or the other. How great of a religion that is, where simply by thinking you can get to heaven.

Hmm, give me an example of when the protestants persecuted catholics? There might be some isolated cases, but for the most part, the protestants have never had much power compared to the ins!@#$%^&*ution, banking, land, and power the catholic church has so there really isn't much of a way for protestants to have done so.

 

Catholics believe in redemption by works. That is why you hear "Good CAtholic" and "bad catholic." They think that their entrance to hinges relies heavily on their works, ritual, repe!@#$%^&*ion of prayers for forgiveness. My church would call this "legalistic," they are hung up on details but don't focus on the mindset that should be behind those details. I live in a HEAVILY catholic area, and the majority of those people read the bible maybe 3 times a year. When the Bible says the that only way to teh father (in heaven) is through jesus, and they think its by works, and praying to saints, that's not true christianity to me. Problem is, the average catholic doesn't realize this flaw because they never friggin read the bible to discover that what they've been following in church is not supported in the bible.

 

And in case someone brings this up: Yes protestants still beleive would should commit good works, be servants, but we don't think thats what merits us pasasge into heaven.

 

When you talk of all the persecution and the inquisition' date=' and all of that IT WAS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WHICH everyone knows has been corrupt.[/quote']

Oh so Protestants haven't done the same? Who had the Salem Witch trials? Who massacred the Native Americans in the name of "converting the heathens? Germany is a mostly Protestant country that committed the Holocaust and Jew hating was based on and encouraged by the church because "the Jews killed Jesus". Britain as a Protestant committed how many genocides during imperialism in the name of "converting the heathens"? The KKK hates the Jews. What religious denomination are they again?

Hmm, ok good point on Salem Witch hunts. I would point out however, these are more of an internal affair within the religion, rather then persecuting people outside the religion. Meh, nevermind, guess you still got me on that one. Pushing the massacre of american indians on the protestants is a stretch though, and even suggesting the holocaust was because of protestants is outrageous. Britain killing in the name of "converting the heathens," mhmm, valid argument I guess. Are you going to hold every African tribe who conquered neighbors in the name of their religion at fault too though? Do protestants today conquer other nations to try and force our religion on people? We don't even have a unified government, army, etc, so obviously not. And te KKK, would you say the KKK is a group sponsored/supported by Protestants in general? Obviously not, its a bunch of radical dipASSS who by their own beliefs shouldn't even qualify as the christians they claimed they are/were.

 

People change....stop judging people on something they did hundreds of years ago. EVERY ONE has messed up, isnt it more important to look at how there changing?

Thank you, again are protestants commiting m!@#$%^&* murder today astro? Are we enslaving/imperializing with our non-existant armies?

 

People change....stop judging people on something they did hundreds of years ago. EVERY ONE has messed up, isnt it more important to look at how there changing?

 

The problem is that there are still a lot of people like Pull who walk around saying we're all !@#$%^&*ed unless we convert to Christianity. Christians are still trying to impose their ideas upon non Christians. All of these tragic events started off harmless.

 

You can't expect people to blindly trust a group or groups responsible for many of the man caused travesties of the past two millenia.

Pull is a flash to old fire-and-brimstone evangelical preachers. This is just a venture, but I would be willing to suggest that the reason you guys say that SO MANY christians are pushy and trying to convert and stuff like that, is because all the Christians who aren't doing that, you haven't recognized as Christians. For example, if you met two people in real life, me and a "pushy" Christian, you probably would walk away thinking, the only christian of this group is pushy, typical, not even realizing that I was a christian too because I wasn't being pushy. I think that theres this whole group of Christians out there, that is so much more normal than you think, that you're not even recognizing them to be Christian. Out of the several protestant churches I have attended, all have stressed a certain pattern of evangelizing. We can promote the Lord simply by being the people who are nice, who always seem joyful, who are being serving, etc. People around us, fellow students, co-workers, whoever can recognize us as being different, and after getting to know us, might wonder or ask "What fuels you to act how you do?" And through this, you have been given the chance to spread the word. Nothing pushy about that.

[Bak]

at every m!@#$%^&* catholics read three passages from the bible

 

"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." John 14:15

 

Catholics believe that you must believe in Jesus and all that nonsense in addition to obeying commandments.

 

actions speak louder than words... and if people were really only going to church to be bored and did not believe, they would not go at all. Whereas protestants can simply believe in Jesus, go a murderous rampage, and still go to heaven because of their belief. lame.

Edited October 4, 2007 by Bak

[wub]

Pull is a flash to old fire-and-brimstone evangelical preachers. This is just a venture, but I would be willing to suggest that the reason you guys say that SO MANY christians are pushy and trying to convert and stuff like that, is because all the Christians who aren't doing that, you haven't recognized as Christians. For example, if you met two people in real life, me and a "pushy" Christian, you probably would walk away thinking, the only christian of this group is pushy, typical, not even realizing that I was a christian too because I wasn't being pushy. I think that theres this whole group of Christians out there, that is so much more normal than you think, that you're not even recognizing them to be Christian. Out of the several protestant churches I have attended, all have stressed a certain pattern of evangelizing. We can promote the Lord simply by being the people who are nice, who always seem joyful, who are being serving, etc. People around us, fellow students, co-workers, whoever can recognize us as being different, and after getting to know us, might wonder or ask "What fuels you to act how you do?" And through this, you have been given the chance to spread the word. Nothing pushy about that.

 

Exactly... things are changing.

Edited October 4, 2007 by wub

[AstroProdigy]

You also vote to impose your religious beliefs on us and even go as far as to deny the separation of church and state and claim America is only for Christians. That belief is shared by a surprisingly large percentage of Christians here and much of the rest are simply complacent with it. Having your own beliefs is fine, but in case you haven't noticed Bush was elected almost entirely by practicing Christians and the things he does are to the great detriment of my freedoms. If you want to act like you no longer impose your beliefs on us then stop voting for people who say all their decisions come from their faith. That's pretty telling right there.

[ThunderJam]

at every m!@#$%^&* catholics read three passages from the bible

 

"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." John 14:15

 

Catholics believe that you must believe in Jesus and all that nonsense in addition to obeying commandments.

 

actions speak louder than words... and if people were really only going to church to be bored and did not believe, they would not go at all. Whereas protestants can simply believe in Jesus, go a murderous rampage, and still go to heaven because of their belief. lame.

I guess I should have been a little clearer, I didn't mean they didn't read anything in church, but again, it is stuff the church is reading to them basically, there not going out on their own, and reading the bible daily, learning from it. It's like being s!@#$%^&* fed, but only getting what the church wants to feed you. Sure the catholic doctrine says the believe in Jesus, but they've become more and more focused on works, to the point that works is the primary concern. And yes, I know plenty of catholics that go to church weekly, because they think if they don't they won't get into heaven, but besides that, their lives show no impact from christianity at all. Some of them treat it like a chore. Im not denying that there are catholics who are GENUINE, because I also know a smaller percentage who have genuine faith and really follow the bible, but that group is a minority among the other catholics.

 

 

 

Sigh astro, do you even read my posts? I AM IMPOSING MY BELIEFS? I AM CLAIMING AMERICA IS ONLY CHRISTIANS? IM DENYING THE SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE? You're a joke, if your're going to debate, then actually debate and stop being a fool. Otherwise why don't you leave. I have never said america is only christians or denied the separation. As for imposing my belifs, read below, which is what I said LAST POST:

This is just a venture, but I would be willing to suggest that the reason you guys say that SO MANY christians are pushy and trying to convert and stuff like that, is because all the Christians who aren't doing that, you haven't recognized as Christians. For example, if you met two people in real life, me and a "pushy" Christian, you probably would walk away thinking, the only christian of this group is pushy, typical, not even realizing that I was a christian too because I wasn't being pushy. I think that theres this whole group of Christians out there, that is so much more normal than you think, that you're not even recognizing them to be Christian. Out of the several protestant churches I have attended, all have stressed a certain pattern of evangelizing. We can promote the Lord simply by being the people who are nice, who always seem joyful, who are being serving, etc. People around us, fellow students, co-workers, whoever can recognize us as being different, and after getting to know us, might wonder or ask "What fuels you to act how you do?" And through this, you have been given the chance to spread the word. Nothing pushy about that.

[AstroProdigy]

Who are you voting for and why? I know you were too young to vote for Bush, but I bet you would have. Don't deny it now that he's unpopular either. Would you vote for an atheist? I want you to be honest with this one. Take your time and think about it. No point to lie on a forum. Edited October 4, 2007 by AstroProdigy

[Samapico]

Do president candidates need to state their religious beliefs or what? Our prime minister here could be buddhist and noone would even know.

 

Americans are such fanatics...

[Bak]

every president we've ever had has been a christian. JFK was a big deal because he was Catholic and I think mitt romney now is causing a rukus on the basis of being mormen.

 

i'd vote for an atheist! (and i did vote for kerry in '04)

[wub]

calling your self as christen to get votes does not make you a christen... Edited October 4, 2007 by wub

[JDS]

the chance of a girl/ black person / jew / (anyone other than a 'christian' ) becoming president is a 0% chance

[JDS]

asian.. proly 0% aswell