The Great Faith Debate

[LiDDiS]

The most important tangible object in the universe is the Bible. I have been sure to study the Bible as frequently as possible, although i still have not completed the whole book.

!@#$%^&* dude, there's a killer M. NIGHT SHAMALAN style twist at the end.

[NBVegita]

I still call your god petty.

 

Petty that certain men born onto this plane have no path to "salvation". Say a man is born in the amazon. He never hears of the religion called christianity. What if he instead stumbles upon a buddhist priest, and becomes so enamoured that he is a buddhist convert. What if he never has a religion because he never learns of one? What happens to him then? He is automatically !@#$%^&*ed because his path did not cross with a christian? It would be impossible for this man to find Jesus, and according to you the only way to heaven is through Jesus. How about the billions of people in countries that never have the chance to learn of your religion, what of them?

 

I believe it was the current pope who is proposing a revolutionary ideal, that the christians, hindu's, jews ect., although they go about it in different ways, are actually worshipping the same god.

 

I used to be an agnostic, but now I claim no religion or affiliation. Maybe there is an affiliation for people like me and I just don't yet know it. I believe what I said in the last paragraph. In my heart, although it goes against every logical cell in my body, that there is a God. I also believe that the God each of the forementioned religions worship is the same. As stated by the prophet Jesus, each man must find the way to god through himself, and these variying religions allow people to find God in their own ways.

[JDS]

isnt the bible a total write off of egyptian hystory and the sun god horas?

[ThunderJam]

Like in the other thread jds, you are dumb.

[JDS]

i would like you to read the other thread again

[LiDDiS]

I believe it was the current pope who is proposing a revolutionary ideal' date=' that the christians, hindu's, jews ect., although they go about it in different ways, are actually worshipping the same god.[/quote'] Aren't the Christian/Jewish/Muslim god already one and the same?

[ThunderJam]

Yea they are, or so the muslim faith say. Jews and Christians of course are, since Christianity is just judaism extended further, and muslims say there god is one and the same. Muslims believe in Jesus, they just think he was a mere prophet and not the son of God. However they feel that their God's need for everyone converted to their religion justifies their violence, which... almost makes it seem as if your talking about a whole different God.

 

Im actually really surprised I didn't catch taht the first tiem around when NBVegita said it... its nothing NEW that the pope would propose, its common fact.

Edited September 27, 2007 by ThunderJam

[LiDDiS]

Well if he meant it for other religions like Buddhism and Hinduism it would be new. But I don't think it would work with Hinduism since it's a polytheistic religion :/

[SeVeR]

Tell me how your life is purposeful as an agnostic

I don't have a purpose, my life isn't purposeful.

 

However, i know that human beings DESIRE a purpose, among other things that religion offers. Secondly, i see that the purpose religion offers is purely superficial and based on faith in immaterial beings. Putting these two points together... well, it doesn't take a genius to see the false-appeal of religion.

 

It is a temptation, because i like all humans desire a purpose, eternal life, moral righteousness, ultimate knowledge, and a path to perfection. The problem with your religion is i can see that it's offering me everything i could possibly want, yet the certainty that it will fulfil it's promises is lacking. There is something else in the world that works in this way: a drug.

 

Do you think the Devil would have really given Jesus the kingdoms he offered? (Yes i've read the Bible)

 

There's a reason why the desperate and the weak turn to religion...

 

Agnostics say there is no way of knowing the truth, so when they die and are judged by that truth who will save them?

If there is a God then my gut-instinct tells me that he would respect the open-mind i have kept in response to the questions of existence. He would respect the curiousity i have had for his creation, and my pursuit of knowledge. So if by chance there is a God who sends people to heaven or !@#$%^&* upon our deaths, then from what i have learnt of this world i would be sent to heaven and you to !@#$%^&*.

 

Remember PullstripSquid that the Bible is only man's interpretation of God's word. It could be completely falsified, or written in a way to manipulate the word of God.

[NBVegita]

I'm still awaiting an answer for what happens to the people, according to your religion, who never know/have the opportunity to learn about the christian faith. Being that less than 1/3 of the global population is christian, that means that over 2/3 of the world is !@#$%^&*ed?

 

Someone stated that prior to jesus the Jews could get in via good works. Well !@#$%^&* what about the billions of people prior to jesus that were not jews? Were they all automatically !@#$%^&*ed at birth?

 

Such extremeists give a bad name the to christian faith...and the problem is that most of the people I have encountered are such extremists.

[Samapico]

Well if he meant it for other religions like Buddhism and Hinduism it would be new. But I don't think it would work with Hinduism since it's a polytheistic religion :/

And as far as I know, Buddhism is not technically a religion since no god is involved; Buddha is just some kind of prophet teaching a way of life. They don'T worship him, they just imitate him.

Though I could be mistaken.

[NBVegita]

[LiDDiS]

Tell me how your life is purposeful as an agnostic

 

Agnostics say there is no way of knowing the truth, so when they die and are judged by that truth who will save them?

If there is a God then my gut-instinct tells me that he would respect the open-mind i have kept in response to the questions of existence. He would respect the curiousity i have had for his creation, and my pursuit of knowledge. So if by chance there is a God who sends people to heaven or !@#$%^&* upon our deaths, then from what i have learnt of this world i would be sent to heaven and you to !@#$%^&*.

Well said. If there is an all mighty god and he created us it means he created our minds. In doing so, he would be the one who endowed us with our free thought, our curiosity, our need for answers. Why then, would he punish those who use the gifts bestowed upon them? If this all powerful deity wanted our blind worship wouldn't it have created us to be such followers? And if it wants blind worship, why would it create us in such a way that those who use their gifts to the fullest are inherently set up to go to !@#$%^&* and burn for eternity? Why would an all knowing and all forgiving creator do such a thing? It makes no !@#$%^&*ing sense.

 

If there is a god he wants you to use your free thought to apply logic to the world, not blind and eternal obedience.

Edited September 27, 2007 by LiDDiS

[PullTripSquid]

[JDS]

[SeVeR]

Edited September 28, 2007 by SeVeR

[NBVegita]

Why have the christians avoided answering my question?

 

I'm really curious to find out what a christian thinks about it.

[ThunderJam]

I still call your god petty.

 

Petty that certain men born onto this plane have no path to "salvation". Say a man is born in the amazon. He never hears of the religion called christianity. What if he instead stumbles upon a buddhist priest, and becomes so enamoured that he is a buddhist convert. What if he never has a religion because he never learns of one? What happens to him then? He is automatically !@#$%^&*ed because his path did not cross with a christian? It would be impossible for this man to find Jesus, and according to you the only way to heaven is through Jesus. How about the billions of people in countries that never have the chance to learn of your religion, what of them?

Ok veg, finally getting around to these questions, and as as to why I haven't yet, I've been busy and this even among Christians is a debated topic, so making a reply to this would take careful thought and time, so I didn't want to post until I could really sit down and think.

 

Jesus, during his ministry often surrounded himself with children. In one account, pharisees rebuked people who brought their children to Jesus, calling the parents foolish and saying a man such as this can not waste his time on kids. Jesus, on the contrary, said bring the children to me, and said "I wish everyone were like little children, for the Kingdom of God belongs to such as these." Now you may say this doesn't implicitly say children go to heaven, but many people think that this was Jesus' meaning. Also consider the Christian value on life, such as with the issue of abortion. A lot of christians agree, that kids, before they are able of make moral choices about their sin and trusting in God, are still able to get to heaven. Every account of Jesus/God with kids, has had the theme of love intertwined.

 

I, personally, would think that this same concept applies to those who never had a chance to learn of Christianity. However, some Christians say, and cite certain places in the Bible as "proof" for the argument, that the natural world itself is meant to be evidence enough to make people believe in an alimighty creator, and therefore any adult has had the opportunity to come to know God. I don't quite see this as correct though, because even if they look at creatoin, and think, a God must have created this, how would they know about Jesus or our religion? They could think an indian god created it. So I would venture to say that because God is loving, people who truly had ABSOLUTELY NO OPPORUNITY to encounter god or jesus in some manner, would be shown mercy.

 

Now, if there is a place such as purgatory, (which im not sure if i believe in, again a debated topic among Christians as the book of Revelations' validity is questioned) then this would make your question also a little more simple. Because this way, even if they died without having a chance to encounter our God, then they still wouldn't be sent to !@#$%^&*, but would have an additional time in which they could meet God before they have to face judgement. The reason I thought of this is because, it makes sense that they wouldn't be sent to !@#$%^&* for not encountering God, but it didn't necesarily seem right that by not going to !@#$%^&*, they should automatically get to heaven. Maybe purgatory provides that middle ground.

[NBVegita]

My whole point is that you stated "They could think an indian god created it."

 

Specially if we're going to say that the christian God coincides with other religions, are we to say that because you don't believe Jesus is the only way to heaven, or even that Jesus is the son of God, that you don't go to "Heaven".

 

My belief is that if you are a good man, a man of good morals and deeds, that you will go to what your religions version of heaven is. I would also feel that a God would hold in higher favor a man, who lives by good morals and deeds without the premise of doing so for eternal salvation. I feel that a man doing right by his fellow man, without being told he must do this, without expecting anything in return, would embody exactly what the Christian god wants from man.

[Bak]

If you get to purgatory you're guaranteed to get into heaven (rather than face judgment later), just after a waiting period.... unless you mean a different sort of purgatory.

[NBVegita]

But I still feel it would be an injustice to punish a man for the fact that he was not given the opportunity to learn about Christianity. At least following the Christian beliefs.

[Bak]

I agree.

 

Vegita, what qualifies as having the opportunity to learn about Christianity? Is it meeting a person who tries to convert you? People are trying to convert people to other religions all the time, what argument makes Christianity true and all the other ones false?

 

Is it reading the bible? There are all sorts of religious texts, why should we believe the Bible and not any of the other ones?

 

It seems the only answer left is that the "true" religion (christianity, in this case), must be in the natural world such that when you encounter someone converting you or the bible, you'll be able to distinguish that, yes, this is the truth.

 

However, if evidence of Christianity is not in the natural world, than Christianity is just an arbitrary set of beliefs no different than the other thousands of religions.

[NBVegita]

That has been my point.

 

One of the people on here stated that the only possible way to heaven was through Jesus, and there was no other way. So my point being is that there are about 5 billion people who are not christians, so they are born with no chance at heaven? Even saying that they get a chance to go to purgatory, isn't very comforting as purgatory is not pleasant, and even at the end you may not make it to heaven. And lord knows how many billions of people who came before Jesus were not jews.

 

Basically I was trying to show that the intolerance of at least one particular christian view ASSS over 5 billion people. Doesn't sound like a kind, merciful, forgiving god now does it?

 

As stated prior to this, the Christian beliefs have no more standing than the beliefs of the hindus, buddhists, jews, wiccans, ect. The egotism of the church is a hard thing to overcoe.

[ThunderJam]

That has been my point.

 

One of the people on here stated that the only possible way to heaven was through Jesus, and there was no other way. So my point being is that there are about 5 billion people who are not christians, so they are born with no chance at heaven? Even saying that they get a chance to go to purgatory, isn't very comforting as purgatory is not pleasant, and even at the end you may not make it to heaven. And lord knows how many billions of people who came before Jesus were not jews.

 

Basically I was trying to show that the intolerance of at least one particular christian view ASSS over 5 billion people. Doesn't sound like a kind, merciful, forgiving god now does it?

 

As stated prior to this, the Christian beliefs have no more standing than the beliefs of the hindus, buddhists, jews, wiccans, ect. The egotism of the church is a hard thing to overcoe.

Seems like you've totally missed some things I/we have said. You said "There are abotu 5 billion people who are not christians, so they are born with no chance at heaven?"

 

Not at all. You're not born a christian. It's like no the jews who are a race and you're born a jew and guaranteed entrance to heaven (so they believe). I know people who were put away for drugs, only to turn to christ later. I'm not sure what you meant or were thinking there...

 

And "Lord knows how many billions of people who acme before Jesus were not jews." Ok seems like a fair question, since I've already addressed what happened to jews before christ, but never addressed non-jews before Christ. Consider this, in our belief, the first people made by God, became the founders of the jewish race. The jews were the first people, made by God, and hence God's chosen people. Where did the other billions of non-jews come from? Somewhere down the line of their ancestors they had to come from jews, so at some point in their past, their ancestors had the chance to follow God. Was it God's fault that people split away from him? Consider, again, that he then sent the flood (Noah's ark), killing all of earth's inhabitants except for Noah's family. AGAIN starting with ONLY jews. Everyone from that point on had the chance to follow God. Obviously people broke away from this calling, and thus there were non-jews. So maybe non-jewish individuals before Christ didn't have much of a chance, but it's just speculation, no one knows except God himself. I do know tho, that at one point, their ancestors had the chance. Did the ancestor's split ruin their future generations chance at getting into heaven? We simply can not know. (Noticed similarities to the idea of "Original Sin," that adam and eve's sin in the garden was inherited by their children, thus why human's are naturally fallen.)

[NBVegita]

But that still shows that your god condemns over 5 billion people for the sins of their fathers with little no to aspect of redemption. It seems to me that this action would completely contradict everything the christian god is supposed to stand for.

 

The Christian god is supposed to be holy, loving, caring, forgiving, understanding ect. You simply depict him, whether you realize it or not, as a vindictive, vengeful, intolerant, merciless diety.

 

No kind, mercify, loving, forgiving, understanding, ect. diety would !@#$%^&* so many good people. Yes there are a lot of bad people, but for the most part man is good.

 

I, personally, would think that this same concept applies to those who never had a chance to learn of Christianity. However, some Christians say, and cite certain places in the Bible as "proof" for the argument, that the natural world itself is meant to be evidence enough to make people believe in an alimighty creator, and therefore any adult has had the opportunity to come to know God. I don't quite see this as correct though, because even if they look at creatoin, and think, a God must have created this, how would they know about Jesus or our religion? They could think an indian god created it. So I would venture to say that because God is loving, people who truly had ABSOLUTELY NO OPPORUNITY to encounter god or jesus in some manner, would be shown mercy.

 

So wait...what you're saying is that if you are a good man, and you've never had a chance to learn of Christianity, then you can get into heaven, but if you are an exceptionally good man, who has heard references to the Christian religion, but never pursued them, although you had the opportunity to, you would not make it into heaven? Does anyone else see a flaw in this logic?

 

Now, if there is a place such as purgatory, (which im not sure if i believe in, again a debated topic among Christians as the book of Revelations' validity is questioned) then this would make your question also a little more simple. Because this way, even if they died without having a chance to encounter our God, then they still wouldn't be sent to !@#$%^&*, but would have an additional time in which they could meet God before they have to face judgement. The reason I thought of this is because, it makes sense that they wouldn't be sent to !@#$%^&* for not encountering God, but it didn't necesarily seem right that by not going to !@#$%^&*, they should automatically get to heaven. Maybe purgatory provides that middle ground.

 

Yet again does anyone see a problem with this? Just because you're not Christian means you cannot have encountered god? So if an islamic man has a wonderful relationship with God, prays daily ect, but is not christian, he can't have encountered god? What if as you say, a man looks around, and discovers god with no formal religion, and is a wonderful servant of God through his own means, he hasn't really met god because he's not Christian? What a lot of Christians fail to see is that we are not all the same people. Christianity will not work for everyone. That is why I believe that God created many religions, so that he may stretch his reach out to many people of many cultures all equally. The problem with a lot of Christians is that they're taught absolutism.

 

The God of Christianity declares us righteous out of his own grace and kindness to us when we accept Jesus Christ as our savior, there is nothing you can do no matter how good man thinks it is.

 

we believe that before jesus christ, the jews were god's chosen people. They stayed true to them through ritual sacrifices of animals, showing that everyone they had was from God, and that they accepted him as their provider and therefore were willing to give some of their abundance back. Jesus, we believe, acted as the permanent sacrifice, that made the jews previous sacrifices no longer necesary. So before Jesus they could still get to heaven through their belief in God, and after Jesus we believe you can get to heaven through our belief in Jesus as God's son and atonement for our sins.

 

So before Jesus, being a good jew could get you into heaven, but after Jesus that just doesn't cut it anymore? You said the previous sacrifices were no longer necessary, but wouldn't that show a greater commitment to god to make sacrifices even though you are not required to?

 

From what you two have said it has made Christianity into a cheap bribe. "Hey it doesn't matter how good you are you cannot get into heaven. But if you come and pray to Jesus, throw money in that collection plate each sunday, and be, not your own man, even though god blessed you with free will, the man we tell you to be, then of course you'll get into heaven." Thats no better than selling heaven for an army during the Crusades.

 

If being a good man is not enough for your God, I say to !@#$%^&* with your God.

 

No one is perfect, and obviously neither is your God.