The Great Faith Debate

[PullTripSquid]

[JDS]

you really want to hang out with some idiot for eternity.. messed up

 

 

'the bible is irrefutable truth'

 

why would anyone even bother trying to argue with a one sided moron

[PullTripSquid]

you really want to hang out with some idiot for eternity.. messed up

 

 

'the bible is irrefutable truth'

 

why would anyone even bother trying to argue with a one sided moron

 

I'm simply saying what i believe, if this makes me a "one sided moron" in your books, then i would say you're being very ignorant. I came here to have some interesting debates.

[ThunderJam]

i believe you are not alowed to preach thunderjam, its against the rules

I did not mean for it to come across as preaching. I'm trying to correct an incorrect view that people had of Christianity, by explaining what it is that we do believe.

**EDIT** and i just went to check on the board rules, it wouldnt be against the rules to "preach" anyway.

 

The Bible is irrefutable truth. Whatever the Bible says is true.

Yes i believe its truth and so do the other christians, however I wouldn't state it to be irrefutable. If other people don't want to accept it as truth, then that's fine with me, I think it's their loss, but it is also their choice and if they choose not to believe then that's their right.

Edited September 25, 2007 by ThunderJam

[PullTripSquid]

Well, by irrefutable i mean it is my belief that it is utter and complete fact, however it is perfectly okay to question it, its that desire for the truth that led me to study it. I agree that for those who fail to accept the truth; it is, sadly, only to their own GREAT loss.

[JDS]

dont tell me what i lose or gain

 

its a lose lose situation to be in any case

 

if your a religion weirdo, you gain inner peace, tranquility , love for man, (all that) .. however in my short years of existance.. all ive seen is religious hypocracy in the way religious people act towards others and towards themselves, they preach peace but can not even give it themselves, they are usualy school yard bullies even in there adult life, fighiting for justification to remain the way they are

 

[PoLiX]

If Christianity is right, than why does most of the world believe in other religions/gods/ways of life. Only barely 1/3 of the world is Christian/Catholic/Prodestant/all that weird bs stuff.

 

Christianity spread through a lot of tyranny and oppression. People we're not allowed to believe anything else, and the church controlled government, law, and their way of life. Sorry, but that is a lot of provable written history there.

 

If you look at the history of Jesus from another point of view, you might realize he pretty much found a guy most everyone thought was crazy, and got deep into his work, and unlike him, went out and found people to teach this to. Whereas Abraham was it? I forget his name, was just someone people found. Big difference there that helped spread a lot of this. Also the current state of religion in Jerusalem was in all sorts of a religious based political mess, and the peasants (most the population) found a sense of freedom in listening to Jesus's words. If you sent David Blaine back in time, I'm sure they'd have thought he was the messiah with the !@#$%^&* he'd amaze them doing. For all we know, Jesus could of been the worlds 1st wide-spread illusionist, a "dark" trade of those days.

 

Anyways, I don't know if there is or isn't a god. Not going to spend my life worrying about it, because as I've said, if I was a god, I'd go nuts having all these people spending their time doing nothing more than worshiping me all day, and begging me for !@#$%^&*. We're here to live our lives, and I don't need some book telling me how to live it, or how I'm "good" or "not good". I'll let the people around me judge that.

 

(Yes, I do love studying history)

[SeVeR]

[ThunderJam]

If Christianity is right, than why does most of the world believe in other religions/gods/ways of life. Only barely 1/3 of the world is Christian/Catholic/Prodestant/all that weird bs stuff.

 

Christianity spread through a lot of tyranny and oppression. People we're not allowed to believe anything else, and the church controlled government, law, and their way of life. Sorry, but that is a lot of provable written history there.

I think all the people debating as christians on this board are protestants (maybe with the exception of aileron? donno). The oppression and inquisition and all of that was conducted by the catholic church. Furthermore, the protestants were among those persecuted by the catholic church. Most protestants think that the catholic church, to put it bluntly, is not up to par, and we don't really want to identify with it. For example, jesus says that only through him can we get to heaven, but the catholic church heavily emphasizes physical works to get into heaven. Jesus said only through me can you get to the father, why then do catholics pray to saints? Saints were just normal people who are being honored after their death. Sure its fine to honor them, but why are they praying to fellow human beings? Kinda went on longer then I meant to there...

[NBVegita]

Actually if you read historical data from Jesus's sermons, never once did jesus claim that they way to heaven, or the father was through him. That is where I state that the very foundations of your beliefs are misinterperated.

 

Jesus preached that the way to god was through each man, that you must find the way to god through yourself. He also believed that a man's prayer should be done privately, behind doors, in the quiet of his own home.

 

You do Jesus Christ no justice by worshipping the distorted martyrism corrupted by the church.

 

As stated previously, most of what the man Jesus preached goes directly against what the Christian church is today.

[ThunderJam]

Actually if you read historical data from Jesus's sermons, never once did jesus claim that they way to heaven, or the father was through him. That is where I state that the very foundations of your beliefs are misinterperated.

 

Jesus preached that the way to god was through each man, that you must find the way to god through yourself. He also believed that a man's prayer should be done privately, behind doors, in the quiet of his own home.

NB you are sadly mistaken.

 

Let me quote, VERBATIM, from the gospel of John.

John 14:5-6 "Thomas said to him, 'Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?' Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the father except through me'."

 

I don't know where you are getting your information, but try actualyl reading the gospels (Matthew - John in the new testament) before telling me what YOU THINK they say. I have rarely seen such a misinformed statement as "Jesus never claimed the he was the way to heaven, he said it was through each man."

 

And as for praying in private: high-five, you got something right, he did say this. Now let's get the next step correct, and learn the context it was in. Jesus had conflicts with the jewish religious rulers of his day who were called Pharisee's. The pharisee's had become corrupt and would make a show of praying loudly in public places, praying not really for communication with god, but rather they were trying to make themselves look good by being over-abundantly spiritual. Jesus called these men out, saying that what they were doing was disgraceful, and that they should rather be praying in private. What Jesus meant by they shouldn't be made in public is that your relationship with God is your business. SURE you can go pray in public, but you don't need to be drawing attention to yourself, be loud, praise yourself, etc. Taking a knee, bowing your head, and whispering your feelings to God in a public park is in no way against Jesus' teachings.

Edited September 25, 2007 by ThunderJam

[NBVegita]

I'm telling you that what you read in the bible is not what Jesus said.

 

I am not mistaken. I implore you to go to a library, or you might actually have to purchase some books, but truly investigate the man Jesus Christ beyond the bible.

 

You say you are encouraged to question the bible, yet you blindly follow it.

 

He preached against repe!@#$%^&*ive prayer, for if you say one prayer over and over it loses its sincerity. I have not purchased any books as I had a great resource of them from my university. If you research much of his sermons has been changed and adjusted to fit the needs of the church.

 

But this is a useless arguement to engage in, as you've already stated that your bible is to you irrefutable truth, so refuting it with anything not in your bible means that you will discount it.

[ThunderJam]

I'm telling you that what you read in the bible is not what Jesus said.

 

I am not mistaken. I implore you to go to a library, or you might actually have to purchase some books, but truly investigate the man Jesus Christ beyond the bible.

Fair enough, I'll look into it more, although being a Christian implies a belief in the bible.

 

You say you are encouraged to question the bible, yet you blindly follow it.

No I didn't say that.

 

He preached against repe!@#$%^&*ive prayer, for if you say one prayer over and over it loses its sincerity. I have not purchased any books as I had a great resource of them from my university. If you research much of his sermons has been changed and adjusted to fit the needs of the church.

How did repeitive prayer come into any of this? As i said earlier (may have been in a different topic) I, as well as most the other christians on this board, are protestants. It's the catholic church that has the repe!@#$%^&*ive prayers, I agree with you.

 

But this is a useless arguement to engage in, as you've already stated that your bible is to you irrefutable truth, so refuting it with anything not in your bible means that you will discount it.

I did not say irrefutable, that was pulltripsquid, and I even responded to his post say I didn't agree.

[PoLiX]

Your reading from a book written by man during a time when anyone that the powers that be could be written out of history. A time when anything they wanted written, was written, and was history, whether it happened or not. And then on top of that, a book that has been REVISED... changed, and edited over 2000 years. So even the original truth by now could have been changed or distorted. Once again why if I had to ever choose a religion it'd be Judaism or Buddhism, 2 beliefs that are rock solidly cored in their history, and have little if any change over the past 2000 years.

 

To Me:

Christianity is all about worshiping, not doing ANYTHING wrong, and believing some human was this all powerful messiah who I must believe in to get into the kingdom of god...

Judaism is about believing in a holy father, and living your life happily and being good to oneself and others.

Buddhism is about connecting and being true to oneself.

 

Beyond your Protestants thing, I also notice a lot of the people on this are mostly east of the rockies, and east coast even. A place I hear stores even shut down on Sundays? Wth is that. I work close to a church, and we laugh when people come in "Your working on easter, what a shame, what a shame. God bless you" or "I still can't believe they make you work sundays" "Not make, we just do" as they have a shocked look on their face. I think the funniest one was a lady who came in, we didn't have something, she had been sent around in circles or some !@#$%^&* and she walked out of our office yelling "PRAY FOR SEARS, PRAY FOR THESE POOR MEN'S SOULS, JESUS OH GOD JESUS, PRAY FOR SEARS".

 

Anyways, that was a bit off topic, but yeah.

[ThunderJam]

Your reading from a book written by man during a time when anyone that the powers that be could be written out of history. A time when anything they wanted written, was written, and was history, whether it happened or not. And then on top of that, a book that has been REVISED... changed, and edited over 2000 years. So even the original truth by now could have been changed or distorted. Once again why if I had to ever choose a religion it'd be Judaism or Buddhism, 2 beliefs that are rock solidly cored in their history, and have little if any change over the past 2000 years.

 

To Me:

Christianity is all about worshiping, not doing ANYTHING wrong, and believing some human was this all powerful messiah who I must believe in to get into the kingdom of god...

Judaism is about believing in a holy father, and living your life happily and being good to oneself and others.

Buddhism is about connecting and being true to oneself.

 

Beyond your Protestants thing, I also notice a lot of the people on this are mostly east of the rockies, and east coast even. A place I hear stores even shut down on Sundays? Wth is that. I work close to a church, and we laugh when people come in "Your working on easter, what a shame, what a shame. God bless you" or "I still can't believe they make you work sundays" "Not make, we just do" as they have a shocked look on their face. I think the funniest one was a lady who came in, we didn't have something, she had been sent around in circles or some !@#$%^&* and she walked out of our office yelling "PRAY FOR SEARS, PRAY FOR THESE POOR MEN'S SOULS, JESUS OH GOD JESUS, PRAY FOR SEARS".

 

Anyways, that was a bit off topic, but yeah.

As to judaism and budhism over christianity: Christianity believes the things that judaism teaches. The difference is judaism is still waiting for their messiah, and christians think that they have missed their messiah. Theres lots of christians who are racially jewish.

 

Yea theres some places that are closed on sundays. Not a lot. A couple well known chains like Chik-Fil-A is owned by a christian and none of their stores are open on sunday. Other places that close on sunday aren't really for religious beliefs. I used to work at a tutoring center that was closed on sunday, no religious reason provided.

 

and NB: please give me some sources that I should read. First thing that came to my head was the gospel of judas, did a few google searches and read the gospel again (yes I had read it before). I know you are going to shout that wikipedia isn't credible, but take a look anyway http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Judas . Was written in the second century? carbon dated to + or - 50 years of 280 AD (Jesus died in 30 something AD i believe) and it isn't claimed to have been written by Judas Iscariot himself? So what gave the people any authority about the topic of Jesus' life?

[NBVegita]

[ThunderJam]

Some stuff I found online

 

Old Testament: How do we know the Bible has been kept in tact for over 2,000 years of copying? Before the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, our earliest Hebrew copy of the Old Testament was the Masoretic text, dating around 800 A.D. The Dead Sea Scrolls date to the time of Jesus and were copied by the Qumran community, a Jewish sect living around the Dead Sea. We also have the Septuagint which is a Greek translation of the Old Testament dating in the second century B.C. When we compare these texts which have an 800-1000 years gap between them we are amazed that 95% of the texts are identical with only minor variations and a few discrepancies.

 

New Testament: In considering the New Testament we have tens of thousands of manuscripts of the New Testament in part or in whole, dating from the second century A.D. to the late fifteenth century, when the printing press was invented. These manuscripts have been found in Egypt, Palestine, Syria, Turkey, Greece, and Italy, making collusion unlikely. The oldest manuscript, the John Rylands manuscript, has been dated to 125 A.D. and was found in Egypt, some distance from where the New Testament was originally composed in Asia Minor). Many early Christian papyri, discovered in 1935, have been dated to 150 A.D., and include the four gospels. The Papyrus Bodmer II, discovered in 1956, has been dated to 200 A.D., and contains 14 chapters and portions of the last seven chapters of the gospel of John. The Chester Beatty biblical papyri, discovered in 1931, has been dated to 200-250 A.D. and contains the Gospels, Acts, Paul's Epistles, and Revelation. The number of manuscripts is extensive compared to other ancient historical writings, such as Caesar's "Gallic Wars" (10 Greek manuscripts, the earliest 950 years after the original), the "Annals" of Tacitus (2 manuscripts, the earliest 950 years after the original), Livy (20 manuscripts, the earliest 350 years after the original), and Plato (7 manuscripts).

 

Thousands of early Christian writings and lexionaries (first and second century) cite verses from the New Testament. In fact, it is nearly possible to put together the entire New Testament just from early Christian writings. For example, the Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians (dated 95 A.D.) cites verses from the Gospels, Acts, Romans, 1 Corinthians, Ephesians, !@#$%^&*us, Hebrews, and 1 Peter. The letters of Ignatius (dated 115 A.D.) were written to several churches in Asia Minor and cites verses from Matthew, John, Romans, 1 & 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, 1 & 2 Timothy and !@#$%^&*us. These letters indicate that the entire New Testament was written in the first century A.D. In addition, there is internal evidence for a first century date for the writing of the New Testament. The book of Acts ends abruptly with Paul in prison, awaiting trial (Acts 28:30-31 (1)). It is likely that Luke wrote Acts during this time, before Paul finally appeared before Nero. This would be about 62-63 A.D., meaning that Acts and Luke were written within thirty years of ministry and death of Jesus. Another internal evidence is that there is no mention of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Although Matthew, Mark and Luke record Jesus' prophecy that the temple and city would be destroyed within that generation (Matthew 24:1-2 (2),Mark 13:1-2 (3), Luke 21:5-9,20-24,32(4)), no New Testament book refers to this event as having happened. If they had been written after 70 A.D., it is likely that letters written after 70 A.D. would have mentioned the fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy. As stated by Nelson Glueck, former president of the Jewish Theological Seminary in the Hebrew Union College in Cincinnati, and renowned Jewish archaeologist, "In my opinion, every book of the New Testament was written between the forties and eighties of the first century A.D."

 

Conclusion: With all of the massive manuscript evidence you would think there would be massive discrepancies - just the opposite is true. New Testament manuscripts agree in 99.5% (5) of the text (compared to only 95% for the Iliad). Most of the discrepancies are in spelling and word order. A few words have been changed or added. There are two passages that are disputed but no discrepancy is of any doctrinal significance (i.e., none would alter basic Christian doctrine). Most Bibles include the options as footnotes when there are discrepancies. How could there be such accuracy over a period of 1,400 years of copying? Two reasons: The scribes that did the copying had meticulous methods for checking their copies for errors. 2) The Holy Spirit made sure we would have an accurate copy of God's word so we would not be deceived. The Mormons, theological liberals as well as other cults and false religions such as Islam that claim the Bible has been tampered with are completely proven false by the extensive, historical manuscript evidence.

[PullTripSquid]

[NBVegita]

Can you cite those sites thunder?

[ThunderJam]

It was from a single site, and if I give you a url your going to say its all christian-slanted nonsense probably.

I will say the little bit of that account that I did google to check up if other places had similar data, showed that the dates (at least the ones i looked up) were correct or correct approximations. Try to check the dates on those scrolls and manuscripts against other sources, see if you find the same information.

 

site was: http://godandscience.org/apologetics/bibleorg.html

Edited September 25, 2007 by ThunderJam

[JDS]

i think you are going at the debate the wrong way

 

its not what is in the bible that matters at all.. its the fact that as humans we question everything.. we are born with the strange ability to question; nothing else that we know of has this (plants, animals.. they cant question stuff. They can learn, but they cant understand/comprehend/and question what it is or why it is)

 

some questions are asked that involve "why are we here"

 

 

 

WHO REALLY KNOWS? right?.. well i guess thats where religion comes in.. it gives an answer for, what would seem like, an impossible question.

 

__

Cows graze on the gr!@#$%^&* juring the day, and at night they gather together for saftey at the apearance of night, they sleep.. chew cud.. and wake up when the sun comes and continue to graze / fart/ eat. -as humans we know that there is more to life because of our ability to question everything, never let !@#$%^&*umptions rule your life, think for yourself, question for yourself. Never let someone tell you how to act, think, behave... Humans are humans and be !@#$%^&* gratefull your not somthing else.

 

Why would you as a human be so willing to trade your humanity and greatness away to somthing as stupid and controling as religion when all it will eventualy do is cripple you and hold you back

[PullTripSquid]

Without religion life is meaningless. Lets imagine for an instance that there is no God. And lets say an atheist's only goal is to enjoy life because he knows this is all hes got, so he smokes some weed, has some sex, and generally enjoys life, tries to be a good person. When he dies he completely ceases to exist. Humans die, humans are born...and life goes on for millions of years afterwards. Doesn't life seem a bit meaningless without religion. Now, if God does exist, this atheist spends eternity in !@#$%^&* separated from his creator. Either way it seems like not having religion or not believing God is a lose lose. And since no one knows for certain, doesn't it seem like its a better gamble to believe in God because the consequences are too great to be wrong. Even IF the atheists are right they will still be nonexistent man lol.

[SeVeR]

Without religion life is meaningless. Lets imagine for an instance that there is no God. And lets say an atheist's only goal is to enjoy life because he knows this is all hes got, so he smokes some weed, has some sex, and generally enjoys life, tries to be a good person. When he dies he completely ceases to exist. Humans die, humans are born...and life goes on for millions of years afterwards. Doesn't life seem a bit meaningless without religion.

The temptation to submit to a religion is great, isn't it Pulltripsquid?

 

Either way it seems like not having religion or not believing God is a lose lose. And since no one knows for certain, doesn't it seem like its a better gamble to believe in God because the consequences are too great to be wrong. Even IF the atheists are right they will still be nonexistent man lol.

Cowardise is an unpleasant attribute in a person. I will not give up logic and reason in response to fear-mongers who try to dangle me over the !@#$%^&*-fire and say "Hot enough for ya?". Edited September 26, 2007 by SeVeR

[SeVeR]

Faith is something that cannot be proven, but just because it cannot be proven does not mean that it can be proven false either. If you cannot prove my faith in Jesus Christ to be false, then why do you consider it foolishness to have faith, period, Server? There are many scientific accomplishments that required faith first before it was proven. And it will be the same with Jesus when he comes and proves once and for all that he is the Truth. What you have done is simply highlighted all of the negative and foolish ways faith can be used while neglecting the positive reasons why faith is needed in order for humanity to progress in anything.

I'm not trying to prove God false, that would be just as foolish. It's foolish to believe one way or the other without sufficient evidence to back up your claim. God may exist, yet you seem convinced that he does, why?

 

Now I truly do not understand why anyone would hate a God so kind as to give eternal life to those who do not even deserve it by neglecting any sinfulness they may have and automatically declaring them righteous when they accept Jesus as their savior.

Who said anything about hate? How can i hate something i'm not sure exists. Eternal life is very desirable, and if i had the slightest chance of being granted eternal life by believing in God then i would believe... such is the power of the human instinct to survive. It's in our genetics and in the genes of every animal on the planet. Human beings desire a purpose, a meaning, eternal life, ultimate knowledge, moral goodness, and all round perfection because it's in our nature to want it. Now i ask you, why are you REALLY a Christian? Edited September 26, 2007 by SeVeR

[PullTripSquid]

"Without religion life is meaningless. Lets imagine for an instance that there is no God. And lets say an atheist's only goal is to enjoy life because he knows this is all hes got, so he smokes some weed, has some sex, and generally enjoys life, tries to be a good person. When he dies he completely ceases to exist. Humans die, humans are born...and life goes on for millions of years afterwards. Doesn't life seem a bit meaningless without religion." The temptation to submit to a religion is great, isn't it Pulltripsquid?

 

Tell me how your life is purposeful as an agnostic (forgive me if I’m wrong). Listen, we all want to be happy, whatever we think is good, we try to attain. There is no temptation to submit to religion, you say it as if religion is merely a delusion. It’s simply that I have found the one right path and don’t know any other way to live but through Christ.

 

"Either way it seems like not having religion or not believing God is a lose lose. And since no one knows for certain, doesn't it seem like its a better gamble to believe in God because the consequences are too great to be wrong. Even IF the atheists are right they will still be nonexistent man lol."Cowardise is an unpleasant attribute in a person. I will not give up logic and reason in response to fear-mongers who try to dangle me over the !@#$%^&*-fire and say "Hot enough for ya?". Stick a cork in it you sad excuse for a human being."

 

Don't want to give up logic and reason in response to fear mongers eh? That’s your choice then; death is a reality for all of us. You have a mind to think, but to believe that truth is ultimately unknowable is to me giving up too easily. By the way I wasn’t trying to scare you into converting lol, just stressing the foolishness of atheism/agnosticism. Agnostics say there is no way of knowing the truth, so when they die and are judged by that truth who will save them?

Edited September 26, 2007 by PullTripSquid