The Great Faith Debate

[»Ducky]

Satanist. Belief it oneself is enough faith for anybody.

[Aileron]

Astro, my financial model was obviously simplified. However, I was just pointing out a mathematical fact: exponential growth rates will always eventually grow to be super-large, and interest rates are an example of an exponential function. In real-life it took more money than a penny, and it was put in an organized fund more complicated than a savings account that grew over time. The point was that in medieval Europe there were nobles who created funds that were to go to the Church and as explictly stated by the donator would ONLY go to the Church, usually on a parrish by parrish basis.

 

 

Veg: It HAS turned into a war. Karl Marx believed in abolishing religion among other things. The sum of those beliefs came to be known as communism. When such an idealistic concept was put into action, the government collapsed and caused the Cold War right after Nazism got out of the way. From my point of view, the Nazis were another example of abolishment of religion, as it was a sort of scientology that believed in making mankind "better" by breading people and destroying those deemed "unfit".

 

 

As for the fact that it is supposedly impossible to prove religion, Jesus said "It is easier for a camel to p!@#$%^&* through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to p!@#$%^&* into heaven." Proof comes in the form of miracles, and miracles by nature provide hope where there is none. If one is well-fed and sheltered with a bright future ahead of him, a miracle isn't going to happen to that person; he doesn't need one. It is only to the hopelessly poor and homeless that proof could possibly be shown. God is like a star. You can't see Him when everything is bright and sunny and under your control. Only when things are dark and there is no other light around can you see Him.

[PoLiX]

Meh. Why spend your life worrying about where you came from or where you are going. If there is a God, I believe he'd rather we just live our lives over worshiping him, and spending all our time debating this !@#$%^&*.

 

One of my favorite poems. My grandparents, who are highly religious mind you, have this in their bathroom in front of the toilet, so you can't miss reading it.

 

WHY WORRY?

 

There are only two things in life to worry about:

 

Whether you are well

or whether you are sick.

 

If you are well,

then there is nothing to worry about.

 

But if you are sick,

there are only two things to worry about:

 

Whether you are going to get well or whether you are going to die.

 

If you get well,

then there is nothing to worry about.

 

But if you die,

there are only two things to worry about:

 

Whether you are going to go to heaven or whether you are going to go to !@#$%^&*.

 

If you go to heaven,

then you have nothing to worry about.

 

But if you go to !@#$%^&*,

you'll be so busy shaking hands with all your friends,

that you won't have time to worry!

[AstroProdigy]

Astro, my financial model was obviously simplified. However, I was just pointing out a mathematical fact: exponential growth rates will always eventually grow to be super-large, and interest rates are an example of an exponential function. In real-life it took more money than a penny, and it was put in an organized fund more complicated than a savings account that grew over time. The point was that in medieval Europe there were nobles who created funds that were to go to the Church and as explictly stated by the donator would ONLY go to the Church, usually on a parrish by parrish basis.

 

 

Veg: It HAS turned into a war. Karl Marx believed in abolishing religion among other things. The sum of those beliefs came to be known as communism. When such an idealistic concept was put into action, the government collapsed and caused the Cold War right after Nazism got out of the way. From my point of view, the Nazis were another example of abolishment of religion, as it was a sort of scientology that believed in making mankind "better" by breading people and destroying those deemed "unfit".

 

 

As for the fact that it is supposedly impossible to prove religion, Jesus said "It is easier for a camel to p!@#$%^&* through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to p!@#$%^&* into heaven." Proof comes in the form of miracles, and miracles by nature provide hope where there is none. If one is well-fed and sheltered with a bright future ahead of him, a miracle isn't going to happen to that person; he doesn't need one. It is only to the hopelessly poor and homeless that proof could possibly be shown. God is like a star. You can't see Him when everything is bright and sunny and under your control. Only when things are dark and there is no other light around can you see Him.

The Nazis were some sort of scientology? WTF? Their twisted genetic advancement isn't "scientology" it's their twisted form of "science". Science does not equal scientology. The Nazis massacred the Jews for their religion and that was an example of abolishment of religion? That was an example of RELIGION! The Jews were hated for their RELIGION and the classic Christian hatred of the Jews for "killing Jesus". It was once again religiously based like many massacres.

 

If a man works hard and lifts himself out of poverty it isn't the work of God it is the work of the man. If the man wins the lottery then you can call THAT the work of God. A giant sign saying "There is a God" made out of pure light would suffice as proof for anyone not just the poor. Miracles aren't the only proof they're just the nice ones.

[Dav]

Can you add Jedi to the poll? It is a recognised religion in the UK.

 

Also with atheist and agnostic there "none" option is redundant.

[SeVeR]

Communism and Naziism may have included a wish to abolish religion, but nothing about abolishing religion requires Communism or Naziism. It's like saying Nazi's shave their heads, wear lots of black, and tend to talk German, so therefore we must never wear black, talk german or shave our heads because it makes us more like a Nazi. This reversing of cause and consequence to make a conclusion based on mere correlation is something i've seen from people like Anne Coulter. It's sheer ignorance and deception.

[JDS]

athism isn't a belief so i just pressed show results

[NBVegita]

Ha ha polix I believe that is an old celtic poem.

 

I actually have it on a t-shirt, but it's pertaining to the irish.

[rootbear75]

what is

 

Wiccian

[Dav]

athism isn't a belief so i just pressed show results

 

Actually it is. It is a belief that there is no higher being

 

From dictionary.com:

 

a·the·ist /ˈeɪθiɪst/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ey-thee-ist] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun

a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

 

what is

 

Wiccian

 

It is a form of paganism. To have wiccan is quite accurate as pagen is a blanket term for many folk religions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism

[AstroProdigy]

Agnostics are the only ones you can say "don't have a belief" really seeing as they admit they don't know what to believe. Atheists say they KNOW there's no God, but Christians say they KNOW there is a God; since there is as much proof for one as the other both are merely beliefs.

[Dav]

you should add Nihilist to the list whilst I think about it.

 

But yes the only non belief is agnostic, the rest have decided.

 

Agnistic by all logical process is the only conclution, it makes bedates like this interesting because we muct bring in other factors to make our points as things of this nature can realy be won by use of pure logical thought.

[»1587200]

Back on topic, in my mind, I just can't understand how people can look at the world around them and not see God, or ANY god for that matter. To flat out state that there is no higher power baffles me.

[SeVeR]

To flat out state that there is no higher power baffles me.

What logic do you base your !@#$%^&*umption on? I'm guessing you believe their is so much complexity and beauty in the world that their must be a God. But what level of beauty is sufficient to warrant it's creation by a God and why? Those questions cannot be answered, and as such your !@#$%^&*umption is wrong.

[NBVegita]

His !@#$%^&*umption is not wrong, as you can't prove it wrong. But neither is your belief, as it can't be proven wrong. The problem with religion or non-religion, is that neither side is right or wrong in their beliefs.

 

Ultimately it goes like this:

 

He believes that X is made by god.

You show X scientifically.

He believes that god created the science the created X, so thus god created X.

 

You still believe X scientifically.

He still believes X religiously.

 

Neither of you are wrong, yet neither of you are right.

[PullTripSquid]

No matter what anyone believes there can only be one truth whether you think you can prove it or not...when everyone on this forum dies alot of ppl are gonna get served by the TRUTH.

[NBVegita]

you're right. There is only one truth. The problem is that it is impossible to know that truth, so thus neither side is right, and neither side is wrong.

[PullTripSquid]

Why use the word "prove" when talking about religion anyway. It all takes "great faith" at first. Depending on what you believe you are either Enlightened or Brainwashed, and because there is only one Truth the majority of everyone is brainwashed. In the END (meaning after we all die), it doesn't really matter how confident you were in your own religion if it was just a man-made fantasy. The only thing that will matter then is which of us have found the RIGHT path.

[NBVegita]

But inversely, what if you are walking the WRONG path? What if your God is not the god who judges you at your death? What if you find that there is nothing after your death?

 

I am a good man. Not because I follow the morals that a higher being has planned out for me. I don't do things because some little book tells me to, or because I'm afraid of not getting into "heaven". I am a good man simply because I choose to be. I expect nothing in return. Now if when I die, the christian god is the one who judges me, and he looks at my life, if he decides that because I did not kneel in a church praising his glory, that being a sincere, honest, hard working man, expecting nothing in return, is not enough to earn me a spot in your gods "heaven", then I would rather not spend eternity with such a petty god.

[PullTripSquid]

[NBVegita]

If Jesus Christ is your savior, everyone beyond 2000 years ago lived in purgatory?

 

I love the self righteousness of a religion that is relatively young compared the most of the religions of the world.

 

You are fully convinced, just as the people who strap bombs to themselves are convinced that they are doing gods work.

 

And if Jesus Christ is your savior I suggest you actually read a few of his sermons. He was against most of what the churches stand for today. A good starting point would be the sermon on the mount. And keep researching. You claim to worship a man whose ideals you contradict on a weekly basis.

[ThunderJam]

Syrus it seems that desperation and a need for attention were the factors in you becoming a Christian. Firstly, you suffered a catastrophic event and a friend saw the oppurtunity to convert you. The second time round, you were in need and your mother+counsellor were there to offer their services at a price.

 

It seems like you never thought about why you became a Christian. Do you really believe in a God, and why? You need to ask yourself some deep philosophical questions, and most importantly you need to answer them yourself without the Church who seem to have a knack of converting you.

I was going to read this whole topic, but sever's post disgusted me enough that I refuse to read more.

 

Desperation and need for attention? How bout lacking any support and needing someone or something to lean on. His friend saw the opportunity to convert him? You talk as if his friend saw him as a piece of meat, "+1 for me because I hooked another sucker." Any good friend, who saw there buddy in a struggle in life without anyone to support him should try give him spiritual help/motivation. Do you really believe in a god and why? Sure there are tons of people who call themselves Christians and celebrate Christmas and Easter without having any real spiritual convictions, but syrus wouldn't publicly be declaring himself a Christian in a debate about religions if his beliefs weren't heartfelt. You say the Church is just out to convert people, but you don't understand the mindset of the people within the church. We're not just trying to randomly snag every person we see and count it as a point up for us. Real christians are trying to invite people they care about to share in the joy that have found in their religion. It's not like "hey that guy is in trouble, lets convert him, ok, done now, move on to the next target."

[ThunderJam]

double post, saw the post above mine, and decided, heck i am going to comment on more then severs post

 

NBVegita said:

"If Jesus Christ is your savior, everyone beyond 2000 years ago lived in purgatory?"

 

No, we believe that before jesus christ, the jews were god's chosen people. They stayed true to them through ritual sacrifices of animals, showing that everyone they had was from God, and that they accepted him as their provider and therefore were willing to give some of their abundance back. Jesus, we believe, acted as the permanent sacrifice, that made the jews previous sacrifices no longer necesary. So before Jesus they could still get to heaven through their belief in God, and after Jesus we believe you can get to heaven through our belief in Jesus as God's son and atonement for our sins.

[ThunderJam]

Yes thats right, triple post.

 

I am a good man simply because I choose to be. I expect nothing in return. Now if when I die, the christian god is the one who judges me, and he looks at my life, if he decides that because I did not kneel in a church praising his glory, that being a sincere, honest, hard working man, expecting nothing in return, is not enough to earn me a spot in your gods "heaven", then I would rather not spend eternity with such a petty god.

Lesson in the Christian doctrine:

We do not believe that it is your physical works that gets you into heaven. Therefore kneeling in church and participating in your church's worship is NOT what we believe gets you in. Plenty of people go to church weekly but may not be true christians. As for calling god petty due to not accepting someone who lives with good morals, let me throw you our perspective. God creates man to be perfect, to be beings in his own likeness, man abandons god, man falls into vast sin, man worships false gods. God graciously provides man a second chance by giving us Jesus to pay for our sins. From this point on, if man does not accept this offer, that he has given to us freely, than we don't deserve to come to heaven to be with our maker.

[JDS]

i believe you are not alowed to preach thunderjam, its against the rules