The Great Faith Debate

[»1587200]

This is The Great Faith Debate

I know there are a few other religion and faith debates floating around the forum, but I figured I would start this one so we can keep the debate in one place. However, this thread does come with some rules:

1. No demeaning or insulting people for what they believe. You can disagree but don't lower yourselves to insults and childish behavior. In this thread you have the right to state what you believe, and you also have the right to disagree with someone. You do not however have the right to insult or flame people based on what they believe, and I hope the moderators keep this topic clean.
   
2. State reasons why you believe what you believe. Give credit to those sources as well. Also, try to use creditable sources: well known faith or anti-faith sites, reputable writers or books, etc (just to give you a heads up, the Christian faith believes the Bible is without question a reputable book).
   
3. I assume there will be more than one discussion going on at once, feel free to join into any of them.
   

There, I tried to make it as non-bias as I could.

 

Just a note, Christians are divided into denominations. Roman Catholicism and Protestantism are the two major divisions of Christianity in the Western world, if Anglicanism is included as a part of the latter. However, Catholics do not describe themselves as a denomination but rather as a Church. The Baptist, Methodist, and Lutheran churches are generally considered to be Protestant denominations, although strictly speaking, of these three, the Lutheran denomination, is the only one of these founded as a "protest" against Roman Catholicism[1]. I state that because Catholic, Lutheran, etc are not religions, they are denominations. The religion is Christianity. A lot of people didn't know that, so I thought I would state it.

 

I'll start out. I'm a Christian. I try not to be !@#$%^&*ociated with any denominations within the faith, as I think categorizing Christians is wrong, as well as the split within the faith since "If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand[2]". However, I do belong to a Baptist church, before that an Evangelical church, and before that a Pentacostical church. I was not raised as a Christian and the faith was not embedded into my brain as a child. I never knew my father and my mom was not a Christian at the time, I also have no siblings, so my faith was not influenced by my family. I became a Christian when I was 13 years old, two years after my house burned down and the "father figure" (I use that term loosely) in my life died in the house. I ended up going to my friend's church because he kept bugging me to come to his youth group that met Wed nights. Anyway, long story short, I became a Christian, quit, did things my own way, nearly drank myself to death, and smoked more pot than I can recall 'till I was 21 and really had no place left to go. All my friends left me because I was a leech, and I ended up moving back in with my mom. Now, being 21 and moving back in with your "born again" mom wasn't the most fun, she became a Christian on 9/11. I'm babbling and story telling so long story short again, she said I could move back in if I met with her friend once a month as a kind of counciling session. So since the alternative was sleeping on the streets, I took her up on her offer. Ended up getting involved with her church, became a youth leader, blah blah blah and started trying to live right again.

 

Now, the debate. Tell me why I'm wrong. What about my faith is wrong? Am I just blindly following the masses? Am I just a pawn? Am I weak for coming to the conclusion I have? Debate my faith, your faith, etc. I don't want this thread to become about me but I'll start it off.

 

Sources:

[1] Wikipedia - Western Churches

[2] Biblegateway.com - Matthew 3:25

[X`terrania]

Man, don't listen to what anyone else has to say about your problems, or anything negative about your religion or the path you've chosen. There's a song by Pearl Jam that I've always loved.

 

The selfish they're all standing in line

Faithing and hoping to buy themselves time

Me, I figure as each breath goes by

I only own my mind

The north is to south

What four o' clock is to time

There's east and there's west

And there's everywhere life

I know I was born

And I know that I'll die

The in between is mine

I am mine

 

And the feeling that gets left behind

All the innocents lost at one time

Significant behind the eyes

There's no need to hide

We're safe tonight

 

The ocean is full cause everyone's crying

The full moon is looking for friends at high tide

The sorrow grows bigger when the sorrow's denied

I only know my mind

I am mine

 

And the meaning that gets left behind

All the innocents lost at one time

Significant behind the eyes

There's no need to hide

We're safe tonight

 

And the feelings that get left behind

The innocents broken with lies

Significance between the lines

We may need to hide

 

And the meanings that get left behind

All the innocents lost at one time

We're all different behind the eyes

There's no need to hide

 

Like he said, life is yours, not anyone else's. This goes for everyone else. Be original, don't be a trend follower. Don't misplace your faith simply to feel safe. You are your own.

Edited July 11, 2007 by X`terrania

[SeVeR]

There wasn't agnostic on the list so i picked the best alternative "none".

 

Syrus it seems that desperation and a need for attention were the factors in you becoming a Christian. Firstly, you suffered a catastrophic event and a friend saw the oppurtunity to convert you. The second time round, you were in need and your mother+counsellor were there to offer their services at a price.

 

It seems like you never thought about why you became a Christian. Do you really believe in a God, and why? You need to ask yourself some deep philosophical questions, and most importantly you need to answer them yourself without the Church who seem to have a knack of converting you.

[AstroProdigy]

I also picked none because I assume that means agnostic.

 

she became a Christian on 9/11

LOL! I'm sure some people on this forum would say that shows patriotism.

 

Are we really going to debate religion? It's not possible to change someone's mind through debate. It's the most closed minded thing there is and people turn off their brains if you try to reason with them about religion so what's the point? People's faiths are their own and in the US everyone is free to believe what they want despite what some people in this forum think that the US is only for Christians.

Edited July 11, 2007 by AstroProdigy

[Falcoknight]

Why wasn't Agnosticism on the poll?

Considering the third largest "religious" group in the world consists of Atheists/Agnostics/Nonreligious people, I surely think it should be an option on the poll.

And, seeing as 5 people have already picked none, at least two of which were picking it in place of agnosticism, it should probably be up there.

 

After being raised as a Catholic, I chose to become an Agnostic a year or two ago. I decided to do this because I felt that I had not witnessed enough evidence to prove to me that what the Church was saying to me was true, and I disagree with massive organized religions by principle. At the same time, I could not say there was no supernatural being playing some part in our lives, as there is no way for me to know. Same with the afterlife, but less to do with that. My opinion on the after-life has always been "We're going to find out sooner or later, whether we like it or not, so why worry about it now?"

[Guest Knightflame]

HaHa you all have a good laugh at this one and LOL what good luck for SeVer that !@#$%^&*hole and agnostic was not on this.

[Falcoknight]

Yeah, okay Mr. TAMPABAYISNTINTHEUSALOLZ

[Wild Luck]

well my parents are both Christian, so i grew up Christian. But here comes the problem, i dont like any type of churchs i think they are all corrupted, even if i go to the church every now and then, im not a religious fanatic. I might read the bible once every 4 months, but i dont go out telling others the world will end and you must convert or you wil go to !@#$%^&* balh blah blah.

 

I do am open minded, i respect all religions, I even like buda.

[»1587200]

There wasn't agnostic on the list so i picked the best alternative "none".

 

Syrus it seems that desperation and a need for attention were the factors in you becoming a Christian. Firstly, you suffered a catastrophic event and a friend saw the oppurtunity to convert you. The second time round, you were in need and your mother+counsellor were there to offer their services at a price.

 

It seems like you never thought about why you became a Christian. Do you really believe in a God, and why? You need to ask yourself some deep philosophical questions, and most importantly you need to answer them yourself without the Church who seem to have a knack of converting you.

I met the kid after the house fire, and he never knew about it because I never talked about it when I was a kid. So there goes your idea of the church "praying" on hurt people looking for answers. Granted, I will admit that I was looking for answers, both times I turned to the faith, but what's wrong with that?

 

 

HaHa you all have a good laugh at this one and LOL what good luck for SeVer that !@#$%^&*hole and agnostic was not on this.

Delete this

 

 

Yeah, okay Mr. TAMPABAYISNTINTHEUSALOLZ

Delete this too

 

well my parents are both Christian, so i grew up Christian. But here comes the problem, i dont like any type of churchs i think they are all corrupted, even if i go to the church every now and then, im not a religious fanatic. I might read the bible once every 4 months, but i dont go out telling others the world will end and you must convert or you wil go to !@#$%^&* balh blah blah.

 

I do am open minded, i respect all religions, I even like buda.

Why do you think all church's are corrupt?

 

And why do people think the main goal of christians is go to around converting everyone? It's not a numbers game, and it's not like the more people one person converts the better chance that person has of getting into heaven (like the Mormons). I'll admit, there are christians out there who think the more good they do the better chance they have at getting into heaven (Catholics mainly) but that's not the case.

[NBVegita]

I believe that would be because the most imposed religion on americans is christianity. Even if you are not directly confronted, a large amount of christians, some will openly admit, treat non christians different. This is not all christians, but the problem is christians are becoming like muslims. Even if the amount of them that are radical and severe is low, you can't help but group the entire culture/religion based on the ideals and actions of the radicals.

 

On a personal note, the majority of christians I have personally met lean towards the radical side.

[SeVeR]

Looks like the poll got screwed up with adding another option. I don't believe 5 people here (or the whole of subspace) are Wiccans.

 

Knightflame:

HaHa you all have a good laugh at this one and LOL what good luck for SeVer that !@#$%^&*hole and agnostic was not on this.

That's not very Christian of you. I forgive you though, it's in your nature. Now go repent.

 

Syrus:

I met the kid after the house fire, and he never knew about it because I never talked about it when I was a kid. So there goes your idea of the church "praying" on hurt people looking for answers. Granted, I will admit that I was looking for answers, both times I turned to the faith, but what's wrong with that?

They don't necessarily prey on people when those people often come looking for the church. It's clear that twice in your life you were feeling pretty low. Both times you ended up in the welcoming arms of the Church. That kind of comfort, safety, friendship and community is not such a bad thing during your time of need, but don't feel you have to believe what they believe just because they've been nice to you. If they're the kind people they say they are then you'll be welcome no matter what you decide to believe.

 

Would you be a Christian now if not for those low points in your life?

Did you not believe in God before, if not then why?

Do you think the kindness shown to you in your time of need was an incentive to believe their views on God?

 

Falco:

After being raised as a Catholic, I chose to become an Agnostic a year or two ago. I decided to do this because I felt that I had not witnessed enough evidence to prove to me that what the Church was saying to me was true, and I disagree with massive organized religions by principle. At the same time, I could not say there was no supernatural being playing some part in our lives, as there is no way for me to know. Same with the afterlife, but less to do with that. My opinion on the after-life has always been "We're going to find out sooner or later, whether we like it or not, so why worry about it now?"

In response to your last point about an afterlife, i've been told many times by Christians to believe in God and heaven so that there is no chance of going to !@#$%^&* if i'm wrong. One would have to be very cowardly to convert based on that "threat", but what gets me is the audacity of Christians to use such under-hand tactics in order to play on peoples fears (it was one of the first things Knighflame said to me on this forum).

 

I applaud you for becoming agnostic, it takes alot of inner strength to give up the delusion of a guaranateed place in heaven.

[»1587200]

Would you be a Christian now if not for those low points in your life?

Did you not believe in God before, if not then why?

Do you think the kindness shown to you in your time of need was an incentive to believe their views on God?

1) I can't answer that as I don't know what would have happened.

2) No, the idea of a God or any higher power was not introduced to me until I originally joined the faith. But the idea of one God who made everything makes more sence to me than no god, and everything happend by chance.

3) No, I think the kindess shown was simply that, kindness.

[Hakaku]

I didn't read anything above, but here's my answer... quote me if you want, but I'm not replying.

 

To start off with, my religion is Roman Catholic, so I'm Christian. My parents are super-church-goers, I am not. I'm not anti-religion, I think it can be a good thing if done right. I don't like the stuff !@#$%^&*ociated with history of my religion, but humans are humans, and therefore are imperfect and make mistakes. People who hate religion over its 'corruptness' aren't forced to follow the corruption !@#$%^&*ociated.

 

I believe in the fundamentals of all major religions (I leave out more recent religions); love one another, don't kill your neighbour, etc. And I believe all religions could live in harmony and peace if they tried. I am against 'using your religion to reason your actions', especially when it comes to 'religious wars'.

Oh, and I am no where near anti-Islamic, which seems to be a growing trend among North Americans.

 

-I like buddhism, and its peacefulness, and how it handled the war in Tibet. My aunt is buddhist, and a bigger part of my family is too.

-I don't like people who bash others for their religions or religious views; we're free to choose our own perspectives of life.

-I am amazed out how much people believe it's black and white, as in !@#$%^&* or Heaven, and then they leave out Pergatory.

-I am against war, no matter what. And abortion.

 

Despite being Roman Catholic, my religious views are just : "meh", and much more accepting of the world around me.

Edited July 11, 2007 by Hakaku

[Wild Luck]

]Why do you think all church's are corrupt?

 

ok first of all my home town university wich i wont say its name is run by an archbishop, whos pretty good at it, speaking and maintaining peace on my coutnry, like if there is a conflict he speaks to the sides on it, but on the university he charges a lot of money to sign up and per credit materias. And you know where all that money goes? to his !@#$%^&* pocket and !@#$%^&* car and !@#$%^&* huge house and all his !@#$%^&* "holy " needs.

 

You wonder why does it happens? corruption.

 

I also studied at a school wich i wont say its name since its international, but it was ran by "fathers" most of them where good but there were some who were gays and molested kids, other were perverts and molested girls. and they all had last year cars and huge houses, my friends and i did the math of all the money they charged in all the levels: kinder garden, primary, high school, and man they paid so small amount of money too the teachers and had so much money left wich they invested in their own stuff.

 

Since there are not many religions in my country i only know the catholic side wich is mine and some others, like there is the mormons who invented a whole new bible <-LOL, ok thats fine. but i had a girlfriend and this mormon priest was trying to !@#$%^&* her, i mean WTF!!!! he was a priest.

 

We also have "Iglesia de Jesucristo de los Santos de los Últimos Días" wich i think its good, i have been at their place and i was pretty impressed, but their ideals are not same as mine. they do give free classes about god and blible.

 

Then we got the evangelics, i know some who lived on my street and visited my house and talk me over god and heaven, and their daugther was evangelic and a !@#$%^&*, and their smaller daughther was the same, and her husband was searched by DNCD wich is my country police for drugs.

 

So maybe i met the wrong people but my perspective was made, humans are weak, and can have difficult times, so they might have huge temptations,and during this moment some might be corrupted, sadly they might also be a priest of some church.

[Greased_Lightning]

Okay, I'm Catholic, not a very good one as something that happened last year has left me and God on somewhat less friendly terms, however I still like Jesus (go figure). I don't care if someone doesn't think the same things as I do spiritually-wise. I think the Dali Llama (sp?) is a pretty cool guy who makes a lot of sense. I'm wary of people who go around with their religions on their sleeves or who try to convery people. Believe what you want and have enough respect to keep your beliefs to yourself unless someone asks you. That's my main belief, be decent and respectful. I live in what you would probably call the Bible Belt, but other than one visit from a Jehovas Witness my sophmore year college, I have NEVER had anyone try to convert/convince me to be something else. As far as corruption in organized religion, everyone focuses on that but how often do you hear about the good work they do? Yes, there are horrible things that take place but how is it different from any other kind of business, government, or charitable organization?

 

Anyway, on the topic of religion, why is it that we can't just agree to disagree, as debates like this only piss people off?

[NBVegita]

Uh greased...I do believe this topic was designed to debate religion lol

 

I have no problems with people of any religion, as long as:

 

1) They don't wear it on their sleeve. Your religion should be yours alone, you don't need to wear it like a banner

 

2) You don't tell me my beliefs are wrong. My beliefs have no more faults than yours do.

 

3) Don't judge me because I don't agree with your beliefs. Again your beliefs are as correct as mine

 

After that I'm pretty much golden.

[SeVeR]

What if your religious beliefs include the belief that another religion(s) is a threat to man-kind and it's future development? You can't exactly avoid criticising the other religion as part of your religious views.

 

2) You don't tell me my beliefs are wrong. My beliefs have no more faults than yours do.

 

3) Don't judge me because I don't agree with your beliefs. Again your beliefs are as correct as mine

 

2. Of course some beliefs have more faults than others. Someone who believes in the flying spaghetti monster (seriously) has more faults than someone who believes in the Big Bang. Few beliefs can be proven as wrong, but many can be proven unlikely. We debate in order to present evidence for or against all the beliefs brought to our attention. The objective is to learn, not to be offended. Offense is a sign that you are not willing to accept the evidence presented.

 

3. I'm free to judge anyone as i please. I won't treat you any differently though.

[NBVegita]

Sever, on a realistic scale, no beliefs based on non facts are any less accurate than others. Unless you happen to believe in the flying spaghetti monster.

 

If you believe that other religions are a threat to you or man kind, I have a problem with that religion.

 

And if you judge me based on religious beliefs, I have a problem with that.

 

Remember sever those are the expectations I have so that I will not have a problem with someones religion.

 

Basically as soon as someone elses religious beliefs are imposed on me, I have a problem with that.

[SeVeR]

In being anti-religious i believe that religion is a threat to the scentific development of the human race, and thus a threat to the future of man-kind. It's my duty as a human being to see it eradicated. Do you have a problem with that?

 

I'll judge you however i want. I won't treat you any differently. Many of my friends are religious. Why? Because people are a victim of their religion. A great philosopher once said about Christians: "They lie innocently".

 

Define "imposed"? I ask questions, i criticise, and i present doubts to the !@#$%^&*umptions of the religous. I don't impose anything on anyone, yet there is a fine line it seems. Would a Christian who tells you you're going to !@#$%^&* unless you convert be imposing? I think that is imposing. But can mere criticism be imposing? I don't think so.

Edited July 12, 2007 by SeVeR

[NBVegita]

criticism is just imposing your opinion on another, unless they are asking for the criticism.

 

I'm not a religious man, but I have just as big of a problem when a religious man imposes on a non religious man, as when a non religious man imposes on a religious man.

 

And yes I have a problem with your thinking. Many religious fanatics feel that the advancements we are making are destroying man kind, so do they have the right to eradicate you? Should they be able to kill so that abortions are not committed?

 

The problem I have with people judging is that judging is mostly based on !@#$%^&*umptions, which most of the time are false and incorrect. Already you are implying that you are judging me, and you dont' even know what my religious beliefs are, if I even have any. I chose none as my affiliation as I don't believe in any organized religion. I feel that if you need to have faith in a higher being, if faith in yourself is not enough, it should be practiced privately. And I certainly have no affiliation with christianity.

 

People judge everyone on everything, and its just an annoying cycle. People judge you on your hair, color, the way you dress, the way you talk, the way you walk, what car you drive, how big your bank account is, what you do for a living, and the list goes on and on.

 

Does being judged bother me? no, quite simply it has become a part of everyones lives. We all judge people on things, either consciously, or unconsciously, but I do have a problem with any religion, or lack there of that judges people simply based on what they do or don't believe.

 

Ironically in your last two paragraphs you are showing the exact same intolerance you claim to hate christians for.

[AstroProdigy]

I personally don't care what people believe as long as they don't get away with essential developments in mankind such as stem cell research nor try to stop important solutions such as reducing our greenhouse gas production; though this is more of a political problem where Christians just happen to be the dumb !@#$%^&*es because they're easier to fool. I also see Christians trying to shove their religion in the name of "let's not just be politically correct all the time". I am very weary of the intentions of evangelicals when I hear them saying the United States was not created with religious freedom in mind and that if you're not a religious Christian you don't belong here.

 

And so the Spaghetti Monster held out his staff and the waters were parted for the cookie monsters to p!@#$%^&* and be free from the health specialists!

Edited July 12, 2007 by AstroProdigy

[SeVeR]

NBV: You mistake intolerence with conviction. Yet even so, i don't hate intolerence, you've !@#$%^&*umed that. I hate stupidity, which i define as !@#$%^&*umptions/faith where evidence is lacking.

 

How is criticism imposing my opinion on another. I'm not telling anyone to believe what i believe. I'm presenting reasons for them not to believe something, but i have never told anyone what to believe. That is the point of debate; you present your ideas and objections to a number of beliefs and allow the other person to make up their own mind. So i must disagree: criticism is not imposing.

 

I never talked about killing anyone. I talked about eradicating religion. Radical terrorists are welcome to attempt to convert the world to their methods of thinking. If they do, then i will have failed, but i'm not going to remove their freedom of speech OR religion. Think of it as a war of words and understanding. In the past few centuries Atheists/Agnostics/Scientists have converted about half of the western world without firing a single bullet. You !@#$%^&*umed i'm a radical who would use force... i'm not.

 

I'm not judging you NBV. I said "I'll judge you however i want"... where "I'll" is short for "I will". Based on what you've told me so far, i have alot of respect for you. People do judge us on everything we say and do. They're free to do so, and its important things remain that way.

 

Astro: As long as Christianity is inflicted on the minds of the young there will always be a finite chance that someone like GWB will get into power to make uneducated and uninformed decisions about scientific progress.

Edited July 12, 2007 by SeVeR

[Aileron]

The last person who tried to "eradicate" religion preferred the word "abolish". Its not a new idea, has been tried repeatedly before throughout history and has failed each time. Generally, it leads to the leader of the culture having total moral authority as there is considered no higher power to contradict him.

 

Let's face it, Atheism/Subjectivism leads to a lot more problems than any organized religion can.

 

Catholicism has a lot of backlogged wealth acquired through two millenia of history. For instance, if a single penny were deposited in a bank on A.D. 1000 with 4% annual interest, barring quantum anamolies the account would have grown to about 20 Trillian Dollars today. Point being, Spanish parrishes have a lot of money because several centuries ago some noble set up a fund to donate to the parrish on regular intervals, and those funds have generated a lot of money over the centuries. In the US Catholic religious figures don't live in nice houses nor drive nice cars because no western hemisphere parrish is more than 400 years old. My priest for instance lives in a run-down townhouse.

[AstroProdigy]

The last person who tried to "eradicate" religion preferred the word "abolish". Its not a new idea, has been tried repeatedly before throughout history and has failed each time. Generally, it leads to the leader of the culture having total moral authority as there is considered no higher power to contradict him.

 

Let's face it, Atheism/Subjectivism leads to a lot more problems than any organized religion can.

 

Catholicism has a lot of backlogged wealth acquired through two millenia of history. For instance, if a single penny were deposited in a bank on A.D. 1000 with 4% annual interest, barring quantum anamolies the account would have grown to about 20 Trillian Dollars today. Point being, Spanish parrishes have a lot of money because several centuries ago some noble set up a fund to donate to the parrish on regular intervals, and those funds have generated a lot of money over the centuries. In the US Catholic religious figures don't live in nice houses nor drive nice cars because no western hemisphere parrish is more than 400 years old. My priest for instance lives in a run-down townhouse.

Ok well one penny turning into 20 trillion dollars !@#$%^&*umes the currency only increases in value and none of the money being spent. Neither of these are true so I don't see where this analogy works. Forced atheism is bad, but I would hardly say it leads to a lot more problem than organized religion with power. Both lead to disastrous consequences if allowed which just means secularism is the only system that would be good for society and the world. You're right about forced religion leading to athe leader of the culture having total moral authority. Good examples of this are the Soviet Union under Stalin, China under Mao, and North Korea under Kim Jung Il. That being said Saudi Arabia, Spain under the Inquisition, and Afghanistan under the Taliban are not my idea of a cup of tea either. The proof is in the pudding. Secularism is the ONLY way that will work.

[NBVegita]

The problem with faith in religion is there is never any proof or backing. I mean in a way its like believing in aliens. As a whole we don't have any solid evidence that aliens exists. We have sightings, and stories from people, some photographs, most of which are altered, but you know what, I still believe they're out there. I guess that is how religion works, there are stories confirming religious theories, as people claim to have seen or been involved in miracles, but you can't prove it right or wrong either way. The only thing that differs is that we will be able to prove the existence of aliens at one point in time, we most likely will never be able to prove, or disprove the existence of a God or gods.

 

As for eradicate, that is a scary word. It is an extreme word. And even though it might not begin with killing, it would turn into a war, and people on both sides, would be killed. Faith is a scary thing, and can drive men to do things they normally would not do. So any plan to eliminate that faith, or the object/purpose of that faith would be disasterous.

 

As for judging, too much judging breeds intolerance. I just feel religion, of all things, is one of the most ignorant and stupid things to judge somebody on. Its no worse than gang members having to hate one another just because they're born on different sides of the city, or happen to live on the wrong street. And it works both ways. Like a Christian stating that they could never marry anyone who is not a christian. That is plain dumb.