Ok, an alpha has been posted

[L.C.]

I'm starting to think using the HL engine might be an appropriate means of getting some of these other features in the game

Don't. I'm not even close to talking about engines. *.map is a human readable format. All ya' gotta do is have your engine be able to read it properly. You can hardcode the the values/variables for the FGD that would be used with Hammer.

 

Now look, if you do this...then I will be more overjoyed than I've ever been. I'd even be willing to teach people for a while for the sake of strong support. My analytical mind tells me that this *.map/lvl post I made outweighs Milkshape in far more important points.

 

Modeling is harder than mapping in Hammer. Hammer is like modeling, but not exactly. Milkshape is modeling. In Hammer, you can select faces (to modify texture properties), create lines through vertex selection (or split faces into more faces, pretty much), select vertexes. In Milkshape you can't do that, which brings Milkshape down to total crap for mapping. Modeling and mapping should be separate in this case. Leave modeling to modelers, and maps to mappers. Hammer is extremely easy to use and learn, while Milkshape is a complete pain in the !@#$%^&*. It's very difficult (maybe not even possible) to select a specific pair of faces on a complicated and manipulated cube (which is now not a cube) on the other side of the whole object.

 

Secondly - with MS3D you're making it more tougher than it should be...for yourself and everyone who approaches it. You listed to me what models Trench Wars was composed of. So now you're telling me that basically there is this kind of file where you define the origin of each of these models. That's totally unnecessary. Even C&C Renegade maps are constructed in one huge GMax file (a clone to 3DSM, which I'm sure you know lies along the basis of modeling; mind you that there are VERY FEW mappers for C&C Renegade because Westwood/EA based it on modeling; it isn't easy to learn it).

 

Another terrible feature of MS3D is that you can't zoom out as far as you want to in the 2D grid views; there's a terrible limit. You can't even zoom out enough to get a whole view of the Trench Wars base from top view. The camera functionality was designed for modeling, NOT mapping. In Hammer, you use the classical WASD, Arrow Keys, and mouse to move around -- FPS styled camera, ftw when it comes to mapping.

 

Sure, it may be easy to have MS3D implemented in the engine, but it certainly isn't worth it for the long run. The *.map/lvl idea would work very nicely in the long run. The limit? In technical terms you shouldn't even have one - leave it to the "as long as your computer can handle it" phrase. For graphics settings, there should always be a kind of fog of war built in, regarding maximum visibility (for example, Battlefield 1942, Battlefield 2, etc). The radar should attempt to draw the walls. If you use brushes, it would be easy for the engine to properly draw any wall in the radar. You should clone the original radar from Subspace/Continuum using the old graphics (temporarily, and for a "classic" skin -- which then you can remaster the graphics to a "modern" or "default" skin). The radar this time should be a miniture Camera, basically. Read on to the next paragraph.

 

Imagine a medium sized cube in the map, perhaps 128x128x128 in size. Your radar is like a finger; the origin of this imaginary finger is the center of the finger (insides) and at the end of the finger (other end -from- the finger nail, the part that you s!@#$%^&*ch onto the hand). The origin of this finger is at the origin of the ship [model]. It points forward (ie, the warbird - the finger is aimed at the nose of the warbird). This radar will render in 3D. As you fly around that cube, it rotates accordingly in your radar. A ship on the radar might be a sprite. Since this is just a cube, it will be gray colored in the radar. Now add shading (we don't want the 3D stuff in this to be full bright, but very much shaded so that it becomes a no-duh when determining which side is the closest to being perpendicular to that finger).

 

http://www.hlrse.net/Qwerty/tsradar.gif

 

I think my illustration says it all (regarding the radar).

 

Would be very nice to see a fully restored HUD/GUI from Continuum and Subspace, even the chat!

 

Mill, if need to be, we should talk (through AIM/MSN/YIM/ICQ) more about *.map/lvl.

[»jabjabjab]

MilkShape is just too hard and not the best thing to use for this type of project. definatly agreed.

[L.C.]

Well jabjabjab agrees, so I think that settles it Mill. . Just kidding Mill. Hope you make a decision of some sort though, atleast.

 

http://www.hlrse.net/Qwerty/tsturret.png

Edited August 31, 2007 by L.C.

[MillenniumMan]

*stares at another really long post, head hurts more*

 

Granted the LVL/Map idea does make sense. Now that I think about it, if there is a downloadable format that can then be uncompressed in the users lvl folder (yes, I know a LVL folder doesn't exist yet) and a map based on client side gfx might be a better solution. When I say client side, I mean all the tiles would be downloaded like on an old fashioned .lvl file for subspace/cont. But a second map file indicating points in space where zone components would be placed (IE blocks, flags so on) instead of being downloaded constantly per session from the server.

 

As for the 3D radar camera, I tried that idea once in previous versions of CNL. It caused several slowdowns and in many cases crashed the client long before a decent game could get going. That would like be trying to render twice, perhaps three times as much information as one would have originaly tried to render unlike with just 3d Radar dots representing ships. Version 0.7 was the last, and unfortuneatley (or fortuneatley) I lost most of that code in a HD crash almost 2 years ago.

 

And, I've stared down the barrel of several guns before, a turret cannon isn't going to scare me (at least not a picture of one anyways )

 

!@#$%^&*IT PRITT! If he had only released the code for continuum to the public, there could have been a client capable of doing 3D renders now instead of an orthogonal 3D representation, or all this hard work making a whole new game.

Edited August 31, 2007 by MillenniumMan

[»jabjabjab]

Great Game.. Great Designer.. Bad moves... (Continuum)

[L.C.]

The 3D radar is certainly doable is designed right. It's pretty much a camera inside a sphere 402638502618356 units away from the center of the map, just far out in some random void that players can't even reach. One of the things that Thirdspace might "generate" (or that compiling tools could also do) is to produce the 3D radar cache; basically it will replicate the entire map into a tiny mini-model and remove all textures from them. Then it will use as simple rendering techniques as possible (and to mention, efficient also) to color them accordingly (blue for doors, gray for walls, green for safeties*). The radar camera pretty much uses a FOV to create the "getting smaller" effects. This little inversed-sphere room that the tiny-mini-model of the map is in is pretty much a "transparency" (it will appear 100% transparent on the radar) and has a little fog of its own (fades to "transparency").

 

It's doable, and it could work extremely well if designed and executed correctly (or properly?)

 

*This reminds me. There could also be a brush-based en!@#$%^&*y "safezone" - you cover whatever space or region in a map with this brush, and players that walk into it are protected by the "safety zone." It is up to the mappers discretion to decorate this space/field/region to indicate it is a safety zone.

 

EDIT :: Since 7z is an open source archive format, is free and has very decent compression, perhaps you could store uncompiled/compiled maps, their custom textures, sounds, graphics, etc in .lvl (*.7z renamed to *.lvl, openable by 7z program). Thirdspace could download just this file, validate a checksum against the server's to make sure that it isn't altered or anything, and then load the contents inside. If no custom textures were used, but the ones included with the game, Thirdspace will load up the existing defined textures that were used in the map.

 

If there is a missing texture, then Thirdspace will load up a special (hard-coded?) texture to use as a replacement for missing textures. ie. Half-Life and Half-Life2 has a pink and black checkerboard texture for this.

Edited September 1, 2007 by L.C.

[MillenniumMan]

PRIMATIVES!

 

 

Not you guys, I mean pre-existing primatives that could have textures attached to them instead of full out maps.

 

Just like what SS/CONT has, except in 3D. The BMP/LVL or whatever could be sent out with the name level.lv3d or whatever. Just place the texture on the primative, give the primative coordinates in 3D space ( Drake3D? ) and two files would only have to be sent, the bmp and the lv3d file, not an entire map. That would save on server bandwith and make things simpler for all.

 

Just hear me out. The primatives could be things like tubes, walls and other representative objects.

Simple click, drag, drop, paint. Just like SSME or Drake's editor.

 

There may be some time before the next release guys (looks at galactic clock) This'll take quite a bit of doing, remaking the game to get it to do all of this. Then an editor. (wonders if PriitK and JeffP are bald or just grey at 35)

[»jabjabjab]

My bday today wooot!

[MillenniumMan]

My bday today wooot!

 

Here you are. *passes a big carob chip cake to Jab with candles that look like dynamite sticks but aren't*

[Drake7707]

Drake3D

 

huh, who me?

 

you mean like building blocks like in gummi ship editor for those who played kingdom hearts?

[L.C.]

Then an editor.

Are you staying with MS3D or merging to MAP/LVL? If you're doing MAP/LVL (which would make me extremely happy and joyful), you can save the editor for later, since there's Valve Hammer Editor to use. An editor specifically for Thirdspace (VHE-clone) can come later. >.<

 

3D Radar can be an MS3D generation / part of MAP/LVL compile; or is that what you mean?

[rootbear75]

i went to Practice Offline, and it crashed my computer... i cant afford to lose anything on this machine. this has all my schoolwork on it....

 

do i need to put it in compatability mode for XP?

 

so no one is going to answer my question... great... thanks for the support.

 

Thirdspace... now with 24/0 support

[L.C.]

do i need to put it in compatability mode for XP?

Now if you really wanted to find out the answer for yourself rather than expecting us to say yes or no, you could have tried your question in less than 60 seconds to see if it would work.

 

Thirdspace... now with 24/0 support

I just debunked it with the previous quote-reply. It was an easily testable question and could take anyone no more than 2 minutes to perform it. If you are on XP, then you should have no worries. If you are on Vista, you shouldn't have any worries (as it was apparently designed for DirectX10 -- which is available for Vista only, which must mean that it has to work on Vista as normal). Just host a server with bots, rootbear.

[MillenniumMan]

Drake7707 Posted Sep 1 2007, 09:50 PM

QUOTE

Drake3D

 

 

huh, who me?

 

you mean like building blocks like in gummi ship editor for those who played kingdom hearts?

 

Never played kingdom hearts, but yeah, building blocks, albeit with more shapes, and textures that can be applied in the editor.

 

L.C. Posted Sep 2 2007, 09:27 AM

QUOTE

Then an editor.

Are you staying with MS3D or merging to MAP/LVL? If you're doing MAP/LVL (which would make me extremely happy and joyful), you can save the editor for later, since there's Valve Hammer Editor to use. An editor specifically for Thirdspace (VHE-clone) can come later. >.<

 

3D Radar can be an MS3D generation / part of MAP/LVL compile; or is that what you mean?

 

If there's something easier in the long run that can make maps and lvls easier to add to the game then.... DAMMIT! That means more work...

 

 

rootbear75 Posted Today, 04:34 AM

QUOTE(rootbear75 @ Aug 24 2007, 11:56 PM)

i went to Practice Offline, and it crashed my computer... i cant afford to lose anything on this machine. this has all my schoolwork on it....

 

do i need to put it in compatability mode for XP?

 

 

so no one is going to answer my question... great... thanks for the support.

 

Thirdspace... now with 24/0 support

 

I thought I did. Too many people posted at the same time so I couldn't tell who or what I was answering to.

 

No, you don't have to do any compatibility mode anything...

as for the 24/0 support, I'm a guy, not a business. I have a life outside of these four circuits and get to things when I can. M'kay bootrear... Err.. RootBear

[Drake7707]

unfortunately to some: having a life > programming

[L.C.]

If I knew how to program, I'd probably turn out to be a one of a kind programmer: programming > life. D: Don't have to take my words for it...they don't mean anything until it could be shown.

[MillenniumMan]

If I knew how to program, I'd probably turn out to be a one of a kind programmer: programming > life. D: Don't have to take my words for it...they don't mean anything until it could be shown.

 

How I'd program a typical woman (pardon me, my FemBasic is very rusty)

 

1 !@#$%^&* goto 7
2 woman goto 1
3 I want my slippers goto 1
4 put out goto 1
5 you goto 1
6 hey goto 1
7 start output legs
8 output to port 2
9 output to port 4
10 output to port 2
11  output to port 4
12  output to port 2
13 output to port 4
14 complete walking towards
15 call function previous line (-2) input
16 run module (output line %15)
<RUN WOMAN>
<Hit play on tape recorder>

 

Thought you did know how to program L.C.?

[MillenniumMan]

Ok L.C.

 

I think for music I'll just be sticking with OpenAL. According to the site, FMOD is also a pay as u use piece of software(not s!@#$%^&*ing out an extra $100+ for a hobbyist license) . Not to mention what I've read about the two formats, it seems to be slower than .ogg while gaming if you have larger soundtrack files.

 

Also, I've been thinking of redoing the HUD, with larger icons in the corner, If anyone here has GFX reccomendations or something already done up, please don't be afraid to post.

 

Lastly, the MAP idea looks like something that could be implemented If I used a different engine 3DRad nor void are capable of using the map format. Honestly, it's hard to tell with only one guy on the void development team, if he's ever going to update his engine again. If not, it looks like another port to another engine could be in the cards.

 

One other idea struck me a couple of nights ago as well. A preview of each arena before entering so you could chose to download it before entering and then play as opposed to waiting for the entire level to download. Just look at a picture while gameplay is in progress instead of reading a brief description.

This is something that can be done easily on the front end, but that will wait until later.

[L.C.]

Thought you did know how to program L.C.?

Nope. Language is one of the hardest things for me. I had to goto ESL in elementary school (primarily because my parents spoke pure hungarian for the first few years of my life, until I went out into Public schooling). Had to adjust. Not sure if it counts, but I couldn't tell or didn't know the concept of "opposites" back then either, so the state !@#$%^&*igned someone to me to teach me the concept of opposites and I think similarities.

 

I will admit though, I have attempted to learn C++ on my own using the internet and a book several times within the past 5 years. I have failed in each attempt because the book isn't human, and the internet isn't as helpful as a personal/on-demand tutor is. The real way I can learn something like C++ is if someone is socially close enough to me to help me with all the thousand questions I encounter along the way and problems. I do have a copy of Visual Studio 2005 Pro installed though.

 

I think for music I'll just be sticking with OpenAL. According to the site, FMOD is also a pay as u use piece of software(not s!@#$%^&*ing out an extra $100+ for a hobbyist license) . Not to mention what I've read about the two formats, it seems to be slower than .ogg while gaming if you have larger soundtrack files.

Hmm, strange. Some Half-Life mods use fmod for MP3 support (Goldsource [aka the engine Half-Life runs on] does not support MP3 files, and fmod.dll isn't even included with or anywhere by, from, or through Valve). Half-Life: Sven Co-op for example -- the mod's installer involves including fmod.dll into /half-life/ (the same directory hl.exe is located in).

 

Lastly, the MAP idea looks like something that could be implemented If I used a different engine 3DRad nor void are capable of using the map format.

Actually that's more like something you or someone would have to code in manually. :S

[MillenniumMan]

Yeah, I can imagine a little L.C. in school

L.C. What for are opposites?

Teacher: Ok, opposites are... Like you and me, I'm an adult, you're a child, you're a boy, I'm a girl...

L.C.: I'f I kick you in nuts will it hurt? *gives a flying high kick to the female teacher in the crotch*

Teacher: YOU LITTLE !@#$%^&*!

 

You're right though, learning languages is difficult, whether human or computer code. Books can give you all the info you want, but without someone to drill it into you, it's not going to stick. It's not easy for me either, good thing though some of the work was already done, I.E.; Seth Brendel, someone builds a molecular analyzer this, someone else makes a m!@#$%^&* spectrometer that... I just put most of it together. I'm lazy That reminds me, I haven't seen the fly in a while, I think I'll rent it later...

 

I already had a look at FMOD as well, for a time I was considering writing in the needed code to implement it, trying two EXEs side by side to see what kind of frame rate I could get out of the two, see which is faster. But reading what I read stopped me dead cold.

 

And on the .map, looks like more work. I don't mind hard work when it's needed though. Just remember, most of my work was moved from the 3D rad engine to the Void engine. I'm gonna have to ask around at garage games about the .map format and see if anyone else has put in code for their games.

Edited September 9, 2007 by Smong
removed quote of entire previous post

[Samapico]

I added the link to the beta in the first post of this topic, so if anyone needs it they won't have to search the whole thing... !@#$%^&* he should have made a new thread for the beta

 

It's http://www.hlrse.net/files/Unrelated/Thirdspace/TSinst.exe by the way... That's the mirror hosted by L.C., I don't know if the file has been put anywhere else since then...