Get your hot chat log here! Straight from the British oven!

[»SOS]

  Team Victory!
 Reward: 18925538 points
 |----------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
 |Jackpot: 18925538										   Game Time: 00h 47m 34s|
 |				Name	W	L  TK  G	Rating   FL   FK   FS   FD	FT	   KP|
 |----------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
 |	  astroid_knight   26  !63   0  0  10902.61   16	0   41	0   100   137743|
 |			rasta420   28   46   0  0  13145.07	0	0	0	0	 0   168437|
 |		   tm_master   33	6   0  0  26259.92  !43  !43  !50	0  !356   348987|
 |		Rapid Bomber  !68   25   0  0  25588.27	0	0	0	0	 0  !429453|
 |				 SOS	5   16   0  0   3655.42	0   25	0  !25	 0	38492|
 |----------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
 tm_master> cmon, keep game going a little longer than that
	   SOS> That's one of the main things I don't like in this zone. There is no clear progression of the game. 1) Take flags. 2) Wait till everyone gets bored and just says !@#$%^&* it and leaves 3) Win
 tm_master> Well, what would you suggest, SOS?
 tm_master> if you're going to rip on the zone, at least give an alternative
	   SOS> I suggest making attacking much easier so you would really have to work your !@#$%^&* off to protect the flags. You couldn't win even if you tried. Something like EG. To make it hard. So the winners are always trying to win.
	   SOS> It was more fun for me to win than not to. That's what's wrong.
 Rapid Bomber> Need to make a base that's hard to defend, yet easy to attack =/
 Rapid Bomber> Tis all we really need
	   SOS> So, like, yes, bases hard to defend, easy to attack. I did lean towards this back when I was doing the maps. I made bases large and removed most chokepoints. That's one step towards a more interesting game. A small step, of course.
	   SOS> !how to play
P   Deva-Bot-0> -- How to play Devastation --
P   Deva-Bot-0> 
P   Deva-Bot-0>  a) Kill all enemies.
P   Deva-Bot-0>  b) Get flags from enemies or enemy base and take them to your team's base.
P   Deva-Bot-0>  c) Guard flags and defend base.
P   Deva-Bot-0>  d) DO NOT KEEP FLAGS OR PICK UP YOUR OWN TEAM'S FLAGS - carry them to your base and neut.
P   Deva-Bot-0>	 * Picking up all the flags and dropping them causes the flag game to be won.
P   Deva-Bot-0>	 * Not picking up causes the game to go longer and the jackpot to rise! $$$
P   Deva-Bot-0>	 * Therefore, do not pick flags up unless you are really desperate to win!
P   Deva-Bot-0>  e) To drop flags without triggering a victory (neut), just CHANGE SHIP - they will drop as neutral (white) flags.
P   Deva-Bot-0>	 [If you do not see the full text, press ESC]
	   SOS> This game is also too complex for newbies. Lots of people don't understand the neuting concept.
 tm_master> I know, SOS
  rasta420> its not that
 tm_master> but that's a core element that has always definted Devastation
 tm_master> I love it..
  rasta420> they just like having flags
 tm_master> .*defined
	   SOS> Yes. But that doesn't make it any better :P
 tm_master> Well, I dont want people who never talk and make no attempt to learn anything playing the zone
 tm_master> if we grab players from zones like ak, who obviously knows the deal from years in EG, it isnt so much of a shock to learn Deva.
	   SOS> Well yes, but why should the zone be oriented towards the LEAST active part of the population? The newbies is where it's at.
	   SOS> But still, that issue aside, the main thing is that this gameplay of neuting and waiting till everyone gets bored and then winning is JUST NOT FUN
  rasta420> isnt eg like that?
  rasta420> or this'
 tm_master> well, it works for its intended purpose, sos
	   SOS> Just about every win here (except when I stealth-win) is because people are too annoyed at the long game and everyone leaves.
 tm_master> and if you remember, back in the day, when it had more players, ...it didnt matter..games were always intense, and never got boring
	   SOS> No, it does not work!
 tm_master> you had factions of people who fought at center and the rest flagged
 tm_master> so there was always something going on
	   SOS> Yes, I do sort of remember it being more fun back in the day but this is today and people are different now :P
 tm_master> listen, sos...nobody leaves UNTIL the game is won, that's just it.
 tm_master> That's why I try to keep it going as long as possible, and never win myself
 tm_master> it's silly..
	   SOS> What? I mena, yes, but that is horrible!
 tm_master> and anyways, once we do end up winning, i usually host.
	   SOS> People stay because they are annoyed but they want the JP. And they know you are very easy on the zone-win :P
 tm_master> so..there's some sort of pickup game, anyways..
 tm_master> well, it keeps people here, eh?
 tm_master> sos..
	   SOS> The main thing is that people are annoyed and bored. Even if they do not outright quit, it is still wrong.
 tm_master> winning right off the bat is just silly
	   SOS> Keeping bored people here? I see that as a failure no different from having no people here.
 tm_master> i disagree
[Some talk about how many people used to play and such - the old days]
	   SOS> Yeea, XDOOM (the owner) started doing silly stuff (he didn't understand that people want to have fun :P Just like tm right now?;)).
 tm_master> have fun? define fun
	   SOS> An above-median content of endorphines in the blood.
 tm_master> ..my idea of fun is a game that lasts...fighting for every inch of ground
 tm_master> which is why i love deva so much
 tm_master> ..and why i USED to like EG..
 tm_master> But EG just was filled with way too many laggers and lamers
 tm_master> ..too many people who lag attach to win games and think they are great because of it
	   SOS> It can be fun. But not like this. Why do games go long here? Not because the fighting is tough. Just because the defenders do not want to win. Because they want a long game. It's not about milking in JP anymore. In the old days, that was the reason we
	   SOS> kept flags neuted. It was all about the points. Not anymore. Now it's just some abstract concept of "keeping the game going".
 tm_master> yes, well, i'd rather have a fun game that lasts, ..and i do think the battles are hard fought, i disagree with you
 tm_master> and i never cared about points anyway
 tm_master> so your argument there isnt valid in my case
 tm_master> i dont see what is so bad about the way you just described things anyways...I disagree, i do think that players are having fun
 tm_master> I dont think they are getting bored, they love the base fights
	   SOS> Well, then you represent a different group of players :P In any case, I think I'll be a lot more agressive on the winning here. Because there's really no reason for players to keep this silly game going :)
 tm_master> only when someone runs with flags and wins do they grow frustrated or bored
 tm_master> reason for keeping it going? Simple. To have fun. And keep players playing.
	   SOS> That is a valid point. It should not be possible to run with flags then. More easy to anti them or whatnot. Running is a completely valid strategy.
 astroid_knig> i think they hope to make the opposition frustrated when they run
 astroid_knig> thats what i hope when i run
 astroid_knig> but i rather fight
	   SOS> One more issue is that winning is very easy here. I mean, I don't think anyone has really been able to stop me here in years if I took flags and wanted to win.
 tm_master> You seem to enjoy killing the zone. I think you need to understand that when the games keep going, the population rises, and new people who saw the zone player-less before will enter to see whats going on
	   SOS> If winning was actually hard, the game could be kept going "honestly", not artificiaaly.
 tm_master> and when they do, more enter, and so on
 tm_master> when you win first time you get flags, it ruins everything
	   SOS> I disagree.
 tm_master> About easy winning, i agree with you somewhat
 tm_master> i thought about increasing the flag timer
 tm_master> or making it so  you could only drop in bases
	   SOS> I think the best way would be to make flag-carriers slow, so they are easy to catch.

[Hakaku]

And here comes Hakaku with a down-to-earth point:

 

The point is... there is none. Winning, defending, what's the difference? You gain points and can't do anything about it. No credit system like before... Seriously, we're just boring ourselves chasing shiny objects with no value in the end.

 

Neither are there leagues, or tournaments, or even a simple list of top players once in a while. Heck, we don't even have a functional website... and ASSS? All promises, no action...

[»Purge]

<- selling tombstones cheap cheap!

[the_accountant]

lol, I agree with SOS for the most part, I enjoy basing.. even as a special event when it drags on for hours is okay, but as a normal game you dont want to deal with emp bombs, bursts, constant repping for hours on end. I don't really have any suggestions to a solution beyond bases that are harder to defend. Maybe some ship settings could be tweaked a bit or something? Ideas? Suggestions? Edited May 29, 2007 by the_accountant

[Synook]

I think we do need tournaments, or some incentive for players to play in a compe!@#$%^&*ive manner. Even automated elinination matches would be good.

[L.C.]

Er, tm_master isn't being very intelligent about the subject. SOS is just as right as http://forums.sscentral.com/index.php?showtopic=13113. Dragonball Z has "evolved" into such state as it is now, and exactly how SOS puts it. People play a flag game and leave immediately once it is finished. People loved the old Dragonball Z settings because it was tough in every direction and actually gave something called "intensity" and "integrity" to the game. I don't see how anyone could disagree with SOS in the arguement. Apparently tm_master does not care too much about the health of Devastation or Subspace (or atleast it seems).

 

I am not sure how you could see it otherwise, but I think SOS and that other article are entirely correct. I have to say this, but http://forums.sscentral.com/index.php?showtopic=14889 is beautiful. Old days were better for several reasons (such as developmental support for Subspace/Continuum) and back then people were probably not as ignorant as they are (sorry, no pun or anything intended). I don't know. This community has strange thinkings in different areas as compared to most other communities unrelated to Subspace that I've been to.

[Hakaku]

Well before jumping to conclusions, the one reason Deva still has a decent population is because of tm_master. It's not that one or the other is either right or wrong, and if we play the "comparing" game, we'll just end up like all the other zones. We need to get more players into the zone by different mediums (events, development, updates, website, etc.); it's just a matter of pushing the need for these things. If we all sit back and say "hey, our zone has a problem", and no one fixes things, then there's the problem.

 

But we can't always fix things, or else it'd be like 17th parallel: always trying to change things, but never actually playing/promoting them.

[PaRa$iTe]

I personally like long flag games and very rarely win if there are any players left. I am also generally for zone-winning (at least since Edome is down)

and am usually the first to vote for neuting rather than winning. As such, I suppose my opinion on flagging is the same as tm_master's.

 

But I do think you have a good point. Not everyone is satisfied with just defending until you're too bored. Most people probably like a long game - but it's always better if the game is longer

because it's hard to win, not because you just choose not to try. Therefore, I think increasing flag timer would be a good idea. Now, I don't claim to be a superior flagger anything, but anyway, I usually get past enemy after a not too long period of time. That period might, however, be just slightly longer than the flag drop timer.

 

Suggestions:

 

Increase flag drop timer

This will make it hard to win unless you do your very best to defend. Also, it will give attackers more hope.

 

Make players get less killpoints normally. Add more killpoints for carrying flag. Make flag carrier even slower. Make flag carrier stronger by giving slight flag protection and reducing the weapons fire cost.

In most flaggames in Devastation, people neut the flags, and then everyone defends. Now, although it might be a slight bit towards some other zones, I think making games more milking-friendly

could be a good idea. These changes should have following effects on gameplay:

-Jackpot doesn't rise as fast normally as it does now, but rises even faster when someone is milking

-Milkers get a good chance of actually surviving inside bases, since they now can fire more than before while losing less energy, and also survive the occasional shark bursts thrown at them.

-It will be harder to runwin with flags because of the lower speed. Lower speed will also mean that you will need team protection inside bases

 

Together, these two changes could have a major impact on gameplay. The powered-up milker will give defenders a slight advantage. However, as long as the defending team is milking, they cannot

win; and they will have to do their best to defend the milker in order not to lose the flags. When they finally start winning, they will lose the advantage of having a milker. Not only that, but the drop timer is longer than before, so the attackers should be able to reach the flagroom before drop. It shouldn't still be impossible to win, so flag timer should be weighed carefully.

 

True, there might be some negative effects on gameplay - for example, if teams are uneven in terms of skill, and the more skilled team gets the flags, the attackers will have major problems with getting even 10% in base, because of the milker (who here is !@#$%^&*umed to be a skilled player). There are also other disadvantages - but I personally thing the advantages outweigh them.

Thoughts?

[the_accountant]

You know what else I find to be a major annoyance, which I personally am a part of, item spam, someone using a shark, jav, or terr rushes as close as they can using repels and then just bursts. If the game is like this everyone is constantly repped around, and then lamed to death. It's also a problem in fraying. You chase someone like SG in circles around the arena and if you do finally catch him, he ports or reps you away, and with the greens its pretty easy to refresh all your items and continue on running. I propose we cut down reps and portals by 1 on every ship. It would certainly force you to use more skill in base rather than rep rushing.

[JDS]

long games are bull!@#$%^&* and i end up specing

1: 1v1'ing for at least 2hours and getting the jackpot up to 20mill

2: tm master comes in and cries if i win the jackpot

3: expects us to play a base'ing game for 3hours + with no point or purpose

4: recing is stupid when you can just hang back in spider and bomb the !@#$%^&* outa the attackers with 50 bounces

5: levitian is underpowerd

6: noobs always kill devastation when they cloak in the middle, it would be nice to see no cloak on the bot just like the no anti warp

7: bases are boring ( current 3)

8: ship6 is way to overpowerd

9: get a credit bot or a rank system because as is, there is no point to devastation

10: milking the jackpot to get more players and longer games is re!@#$%^&*ed without the above#9

11: add more freqs because the bulk of the time is just dogfighting and 2v1 is not only anoying but really unnessesary

basicly, i only play devastation because i enjoy the company of the players and dogfighting is a riot

[the_accountant]

1. leviathan is not underpowered, it's great for bomblining with the massive amounts of shrap and has decent guns as well.

2. Weasel is not overpowered, you can easily dodge weasel shots.

3. I want to see the credits running, and something different in pub. Turf style or something maybe?

4. Spider bombs do get annoying, but you can dodge them too, as long as the bases aren't ridiculously tight like some have been.

[JDS]

ya ok lev isnt underpowerd at all, great baser dogfighter, weasel however is 100% useless in base due to fast use of energy and non-bounce / bad shrap bombs, as for spiders ther has been no base that isnt tight since i started.

[Hakaku]

ya ok lev isnt underpowerd at all, great baser dogfighter, weasel however is 100% useless in base due to fast use of energy and non-bounce / bad shrap bombs, as for spiders ther has been no base that isnt tight since i started.

Err, there has been a base that was spacious, which was up before Christmas for over 2 months, and after for about the same time. (bottom right)

 

long games are bull!@#$%^&* and i end up specing

Which is about the only thing you do, no offense. You can't just come in and want to change a zone when 99% of the time you're specced no matter what. Just log on when tm_master isn't online and have a short match with other people, is that so impossible? tm_master isn't on 24/7, so what if when he is the games are long? As you said, points/reccing are useless since there's no credits to work for, no buyables and such. So just play a bit, and go to bed instead of complaining about a jackpot which as you said is useless.

[PaRa$iTe]

4: recing is stupid when you can just hang back in spider and bomb the !@#$%^&* outa the attackers with 50 bounces

 

While I sure do dislike spiders and think they ruin much of the fun, and they sure CAN lame pretty well, keep in mind that, unlike other flagging zones,

every single rusher will have a !@#$%^&*load of repels/bursts to use, so in order to actually get a X-0 rec you'd have to stay REALLY far back (thus getting your freq pushed

and having to sc out)

 

5: levitian is underpowerd

 

As you already posted, this is false. I would still use levi for rushing if it wasn't for the fact that jav has more reps.

Also, unlike for example the weasel, levi can easily snipe-kill people.

 

6: noobs always kill devastation when they cloak in the middle, it would be nice to see no cloak on the bot just like the no anti warp

 

Well, cloaking can be annoying, but it's part of the game. Just pick a warbird; you'll see the cloakers, and not only that, but you will also have stealth

without them having x.

 

7: bases are boring ( current 3)

 

Go ahead and make new ones What exactly is boring in a base? What would you like to see in new bases? Be constructive.

 

8: ship6 is way to overpowerd

 

Ship 6 is a very efficient damage dealer, and a good dogfighter. However, it isn't that good in bases, and although the energy drain is lower than for

terr/spid single fire, it's still fast enough to allow you to take down a weasel after dodging its attack.

 

9: get a credit bot or a rank system because as is, there is no point to devastation

 

A ranking system would indeed be a very good idea and Continuum sure has been feeling a bit less pointful without Edome.

I think the main reason one isn't used now is because you'd need to program a bot for it - not everyone is able to do that,

or has the time, and the ranking system would get screwed up whenever the bot went down. However, this IS a very good idea.

 

10: milking the jackpot to get more players and longer games is re!@#$%^&*ed without the above#9

 

I'd rather say, WINNING jackpots is re!@#$%^&*ed without the above, since the points won't help you. Sure, people won't stay around

forever - but hey, why not just leave instead of playing til game ends, since winning is no use anyway?

 

11: add more freqs because the bulk of the time is just dogfighting and 2v1 is not only anoying but really unnessesary

basicly, i only play devastation because i enjoy the company of the players and dogfighting is a riot

 

Yeah.. IMO, 1 person privs should be enabled. Not bigger than that though. But wasn't there a topic about this?

 

-Devastated

[No_Remorse]

Hakaku's first post is magnificent. Agreed 100%.

 

Lev is a great ship for flagging. Not really underpowered if you ask me.

 

Weasel is a great ship for dogfighting. Not really overpowered if you ask me.

 

I also concur that we should have new bases, maybe some more symmetrical ones... Like the one's I submitted.*cough*

 

Symmetrical=better angles

[XDOOM]

Wow guys, I love the discussion going on here ...

 

Suggestions are always welcome!

 

As you know we are still developing in ASSS - I am hoping that this is going to provide more enjoyment and excitement, and hopefully we can spring up new ideas/events faster and better than before, especially with a guy like Hallowed doing the awesome dev work.

 

The ASSS system will bring back the credit system, include the same events, provide records for events/scores/other stats and we plan to display these on deva's website.

 

A tournament is a good idea, and its been attempted many times, but nobody has ever come forth to take on to organize one, and stick with it.

 

A ranking system has been considered in the past, and once the main ASSS development is complete, possible add some type of ranking system that would be based on overall playing time, points, credits, kills, (basically a nice complicated formula).

Then people can see how they rank against otheres overall, then comapring to just a single statistic like points.

 

Another idea for the ASSS is the ability to BUY a private freq ... this way, you need to flag and earn credits in order to use a private freq. 1 person per freq would be the limit and you get to keep the freq until you leave the zone and/or freq. Nobody would be able to keep their freq if they went afk, since safe zones would boot you after 3 hours or something.

[No_Remorse]

We had a duel tournament going. What's his name was "running" it... I don't think it got past half way through the first round.

[Hal]

especially with a guy like Hallowed doing the awesome dev work.

 

Huh, I'm doing something?

[the_accountant]

That was flyingfinn, most people never actually got their duel done and then he quit and ran off to EG !!!!

 

Also, the idea of buying a private freq sounds wicked. I don't know what the max per public freq is because we've never reached it, but I think as far as buying private freqs you could pay to buy each spot on the freq, up to X number of spots (allowing some people to create elite flagging teams). It would create purpose for playing and good compe!@#$%^&*ion in zone.

Edited June 28, 2007 by the_accountant

[tm_master]

Also, the idea of buying a private freq sounds wicked. I don't know what the max per public freq is because we've never reached it, but I think as far as buying private freqs you could pay to buy each spot on the freq, up to X number of spots (allowing some people to create elite flagging teams). It would create purpose for playing and good compe!@#$%^&*ion in zone.

 

Negative.

 

The problem with allowing private freqs of more than 1 person is that Nrg.InI! or 'Obsidian' would inevitably end up freqing each other and horde the flags to no end. All the newer, less-skilled, less-organized, more casual players just looking for a fun game end up facing impossible odds, and get squashed and leave almost immediately. Why do I say this? Because it has happened before, and originally was a huge contributing factor to the downfall of the zone, and the exit of a lot of good promising new potentially regular Devastation players years ago.

 

2 freqs only is infinitely better as it mixes players/teams/squads up enough to keep things interesting and fun for those less-skilled. They actually feel like they have a chance at winning the jackpot or at least shaping the final outcome of the game regardless of the fact they feel new or insecure in their skill-level. Thus, they are much more likely to return to the zone even if the outcome of that particular game is not in their favor because they leave with a positive feeling that they can easily get on a compe!@#$%^&*ive team with a chance at winning in the future. In my opinion, 2 freqs only also gets rid of annoying flanks, and boring, divided, all-over-the-place 3 or 4 freq games. I feel that Devastation is at its best when the fighting is centralized and fierce between only 2 bigger frequencies.

 

Anyway, I have already discussed this at length in the past:

http://forums.sscentral.com/index.php?showtopic=10042

 

Besides, I suggest that instead of implementing private freqs so we can "create elite flagging teams" we simply schedule some sort of (regular?) compe!@#$%^&*ive squad flagging match or squad wars, namely `Obsidian' versus Nrg.InI!

[the_accountant]

I enjoy a game where the flags are constantly being moved and exchanged between teams. Yes squads would make their own freqs and new players would have to dog-fight in mid or flank. The good players can't be on 24-7 and when they aren't, that's when the newbs can flag. They will learn and slowly rise up. I think the private freqs would be good for compe!@#$%^&*ion. Any thoughts other than tm's?

[Hakaku]

Because it's ASSS, then you could incorporate ?buy freq# and have the price outrageously high so no one can afford it. Like that, no one can complain that you can't have private freqs, but no one would be able to buy it with their credits mwahaha

 

But on a more serious note, I vote for incorporating private freqs as long as you have to buy them with credits. And a way to prevent tm_master's situation, would be to either:

1) have a set allowed time on a private frequency before bot kicks you off

2) after a certain jackpot number, all private frequencies get kicked

3) limit private frequency's player(s) to the center, and if they p!@#$%^&* that, get kicked.

 

So yes... my solution would be to be evil and kick everyone out of private freqs (or go with what XDOOM said)

[JDS]

somthings gota give, as is now i just pwn noobs all day long without means , i do get alot better with each noob i pwn (lol)

 

but other than that my excelent flying skill goes to waste

[sHad0ws]

i think simple things could make the zone more enjoyable, like new spree messages, and a prize everytime a spree message is met. " shad0ws is on a killing spree (9kills)-prized full items, shad0ws is dominating (18 kills) - prized brick and rockets shad0ws is a killing machine (30 kills) - prized super and sheilds for 30 seconds and so on...

 

the bases could do with updating, maybe a new tileset and also more events need hosting like the races and elims

[JDS]

wow shadows i actualy like that idea very much, however your spree messages in your post suck A new tileset is a novel idea perhaps some LVZ picture files to spice it up abit