Considering joining the service?

[NBVegita]

Sever your arguement is scewed as you cannot compare the usage of trasportation to that of a weapon. A gun is a weapon, and a weapon intended to harm other beings. A car is how we get to where we need to go. When a gun is used, it is used on a rare occasion and meant to cause damage. A car on the other hand is not. And if you take the ratio of how many people use cars vs how many people use guns that would be a more accurate ratio, but still not quite the same.

[AstroProdigy]

A car also has such a massively useful nature. We NEED cars to survive in our modern society. A car accident is an unfortunate consequence of an otherwise very beneficial tool. A gun is to kill. All it is for is killing. When criminals can get it like nothing then police are put in danger and so are ordinary citizens. All you need to do is compare the deaths of the United States with that of the UK with their gun control. I don't know how you can argue against clear proof like that. If people want more restrictions on gun control the NRA being able to stop them means the NRA has more power than the people. That doesn't sound like a democracy to me!

[sil]

First of all, the US has a Representative Democracy or Republic, not a Democracy. So stop trying to make arguments based on a pure Democracy. There is a difference.

 

Second, you cannot really compare the success of gun control laws in other countries to how they would work in the US without looking at the the cir!@#$%^&*stances of the country. I have seen mention of how effective gun control laws are in the UK and Australia, but those countries don't exactly have the makeup of the US. People are looking at the effect guns have, but not the cause of why they are used. There is a lot of racial tension and territorial tension in the US. I don't think (no proff on this however) that those exist, or at least not to the extent they do in the US. I mean look at the Imes firing. It is completely bogus, but happened because of racial tension. There are pockets all of the US where gangs and groups are against other gangs and group. I'm sure there is much more to it. I have never put much research into it. New gun control laws are not going to fix the cause of gun use. All it would do is clog the already clogged legal system.

 

Laslty, for those thinking of joining, good luck to you. I know plenty of people who have gone through the system and come out fine. You just want to make sure you know what you are getting into.

Edited April 30, 2007 by sil

[NBVegita]

Astro you get the statistics of how many people are killed because of guns but you don't ever see statistics on how many lives are saved because of them.

 

And as I have said before and sil said, we have a democratic republic, not a true democracy. So don't argue about a true democracy. A majority of murders in the united states are gang related. Also its something like 93% of black males are killed by other black males and 89% of white males are killed by other white males. So it's the countries fault that a small amount of people are dumb !@#$%^&*es and are killing each other.

[Aileron]

The UK's Murder rate is much higher than the US'. However, their FIREARM RELATED death rate is lower. Essentially instead of having thugs shooting 9 people with guns they now have thugs stabbing 10 people with knives.

[SeVeR]

The UK's Murder rate is much higher than the US'.

Holy !@#$%^&*, no it isn't!. Where did you get that information from Aileron, because it's completely wrong.

 

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_...ders-per-capita

 

The US murder rate is exactly three times higher than the UK's. The firearm homicide rate is 27 times higher in the US. Ban yourself from these forums right now.

[NBVegita]

There may be less murders but we have over a 5% lower crime rate ironically.

 

And of course these numbers are from 98-00 so things might be better or worse in certain areas now.

 

There are many factors to take into consideration also. Diversity is one, like the fact that in america something like 94% of black men are killed by black men. And I don't know the statistics exactly but the majority of gang members are black, and the majority of murders occur between gangs. Being we have 10% higher black population, and 4.92 times the population. In america we have an estimated 12.9% african american population, which equates to 38,499,304, the UK only has 60,609,153 people to begin with, and the fact that they only have 2% black population means they only have 1,212,183 blacks.

 

I dont' know how credible the source is but one source I found says that 52% of all murders in the united states are committed by black americans.

 

So I mean statistics are not black and white there are many things to consider.

 

Edit: tonight I added -

 

So if we assume that the ethnic murder % is the same in the UK, statistically speaking, and assume that the united states only had a 2% black american population, then instead of having 12658 murders a year there would only be 7096 murders. Which would right there drop us down to .0237766 per 1000.

 

I just want to point out with all of this that all numbers can be used to benefit either side. I could also show what this would do to the firearm rate but I'm way too tired for that.

Edited May 2, 2007 by NBVegita

[jacob hunter!]

Well guys I think i'm going to join the army.

[AstroProdigy]

Yes blame black people. The murder rates are perpetrated by poor people, of which black people have a disproportionate share. The UK has plenty of poor people. It's also no "genetic" characteristic that black people will be more violent. The UK has plenty of other minority groups. Even dividing the number of murders of the US in half we still have 1.5 times the murder rate.

[NBVegita]

I can keep going through the minorities until we are balanced with the UK. I'm not blaming a particular minority, but the fact is that out of the 298,444,658 million people we had in 2000, 38,499,361 were african americans. The statistic I used showed that if you were not black, you were under the "white" category, meaning that all other groups of people in america only total to 48% of the murders. Now we have 12,658 murders each year. 52% are committed by black americans, that it a statistic. So that means 6583 murders are committed by black americans each year.

 

So out of the 38,499,361 of them, there are 6583 murders committed.

 

Out of the 259,945,297 left, they all together only commit 6075 murders.

 

Your capita(per 1000) would be

 

Black Americans: .17098701

Rest of Americans: .02337030

 

As for black americans being the poorest, ironically they are poorer than latinos, when latinos have a higher high school drop out rate, much lower college graduation rate, the same yearly household income average, of course have a much lower hs graduation rate, and still manage to have a lower unemployment rate. Ironically Asian americans have the highest average household income. If the Latino and Asian americans can do it, sorry if I don't feel bad for the poor black americans. And to couple this guess which race is the race that recieves the most welfare? I'll give you 3 guesses and the first 2 don't count.

 

I'm not trying to sound racist, but the fact is that if 52% of murders are committed by a minority that accounts for 12.9% of our population, it is a direct result that our murder rate would be lower if that minority population was lower.

[AstroProdigy]

Difference is the vast majority of black people didn't immigrate to this country. They were brought in as slaves. The legacy of this persists today.

[SeVeR]

What makes you think blacks are a minority? They're American aren't they? They're Christian aren't they? So what are you thinking... that their black skin makes them shoot people? That's racist if you ask me.

 

It doesn't take a genius to determine the real reason. Poverty is a factor in murder rate. Blacks are on average poorer than whites, and thus have a large percentage of the murders. If whites were the poorer race then they'd be no different.

 

So you can't blame blacks because 1. They're not a minority, they're Christian Americans with many generations of relatives who've lived in the USA.

 

And

 

2. They're taking up the poorest section of society, and every country has a poor section of society responsible for more murders, not just the USA.

Edited May 3, 2007 by SeVeR

[Incomplete]

The UK's Murder rate is much higher than the US'.

 

That made me laugh.

 

I wouldnt join the service because you never know what your fighting for. You arent fighting for your country anymore...

 

That and I never do what im told :/

[SeVeR]

Yea, how can anyone want to go to Iraq? How can anyone think they need to go to Iraq?

[NBVegita]

Sever I call them minorities because Jesse Jackson and the NAACP spends every day proving to us that they are not just Americans, that they are the minority, African American. Which is bull!@#$%^&* because unless you are a dual citizen in Africa, you are just American. But as long as they keep fighting to prove that they are African Americans, when most of them have never even seen a picture of Africa, and they keep fighting as a minority, they will be called one.

 

Also minority by definition:

 

1. the smaller part or number; a number, part, or amount forming less than half of the whole.

2. a smaller party or group opposed to a majority, as in voting or other action.

3. a group differing, esp. in race, religion, or ethnic background, from the majority of a population: legislation aimed at providing equal rights for minorities.

4. a member of such a group.

5. the state or period of being under the legal age of full responsibility.

–adjective 6. of or pertaining to a minority.

 

Being America is something like 82% caucasian yes they are a minority.

 

And I don't give poor "African Americans" much credit because as I showed, in my previous post, "Latino Americans" should be poorer, but they are not. "Asian Americans" don't have any advantages over either and yet they have a lower poverty rate than even the "Caucasian Americans".

 

Being poor is just another excuse. My family was under the poverty level for a while and never once did they rob, steal, or kill anyone. People blame it on poverty because the drug dealers and gang members are legally in poverty because they don't have to claim any of their revenue with Uncle Sam. A guy I grew up with now drives an escalade and still gets food stamps. Yeah poverty my !@#$%^&*. He makes more in 6 months than I make in a year.

[Aileron]

Yea, how can anyone want to go to Iraq? How can anyone think they need to go to Iraq?

I would for one. The reason I haven't is that I don't have the personality traits of a soldier. For example most soldier form family bonds with their units. I don't form that kind of bond with anyone. Soldiers work as a team. I work alone. When a soldier fights, its to either build or protect something. When I fight, only do so to destroy things. I can't be a soldier, but if I was given a choice to fight in Iraq, I would.

 

 

I'll identify this problem that is occuring with African Americans right here. Around the 70s, there was a movement to instill the culture of the African Americans. For instance, some stopped celebrating Christm!@#$%^&* and made up Kwanza. Some are stopping to speak English and starting to speak Ebonics.

 

These families have been in Amercan for centuries. Nowadays, they wouldn't be able to tell which country their ancestors were abducted from, let alone the traditions of the peoples of those countries as they were three centuries ago. They could go out of their effort to study those cultures, but in the end it will be as foreign to them as studying Chinese culture.

 

The problem is that some of them wanted to bring forth their cultural roots and that their cultural roots are as American as those of white people. So, they tried to ignore their American culture and create their own. The problem with starting from scratch is that you make mistakes. In this case, they have made the mistake of allowing criminal behavior to be part of their culture. To some extent, growing up to become a drug dealer is the black man's equivolent to growing up to become an engineer.

 

For instance, rap music. I am not citing this as a problem, but as a symptom. They have integrated a life of crime into their culture and have included it in their music. Sadly enough, no white man can solve this problem. Either they must either embrace their American heritage or they must create a culture that does not involve crime. Either way the status quo will not last too much longer.

[SeVeR]

Sever I call them minorities because Jesse Jackson and the NAACP spends every day proving to us that they are not just Americans, that they are the minority, African American. Which is bull!@#$%^&* because unless you are a dual citizen in Africa, you are just American. But as long as they keep fighting to prove that they are African Americans, when most of them have never even seen a picture of Africa, and they keep fighting as a minority, they will be called one.

Its because they're hypocrites who are as racist as the people they criticise. They've spent all their lives trying to separate themselves from the whites whilst campaigning for sympathy towards their little group. What they should be doing is integrating and asking for no special treatment. I maintain that they're wrong and they're not a minority, you appear to agree with my reasoning yet you still call them a minority.

 

Being America is something like 82% caucasian yes they are a minority.

If you address skin colour as a way of dividing the populace in a purposeful manner, then yes.

 

And I don't give poor "African Americans" much credit because as I showed, in my previous post, "Latino Americans" should be poorer, but they are not. "Asian Americans" don't have any advantages over either and yet they have a lower poverty rate than even the "Caucasian Americans".

So you're saying they dug their own hole? Black Americans have lived in America for longer and did not end up in the poorer neighborhoods by chance, as discrimination has only recently declined. Latino Americans have not encountered the same level of hate and can get their feet in the door. They are still poorer than whites though. Also California is a rather nice accepting place to move too if you get my drift.

 

Being poor is just another excuse. My family was under the poverty level for a while and never once did they rob, steal, or kill anyone. People blame it on poverty because the drug dealers and gang members are legally in poverty because they don't have to claim any of their revenue with Uncle Sam. A guy I grew up with now drives an escalade and still gets food stamps. Yeah poverty my !@#$%^&*. He makes more in 6 months than I make in a year.

Of course there are exceptions, but overall averages show poverty to be a factor in crime. Poorer countries, poorer areas of countries, poorer cities, poorer neighborhoods, are all backed up by statistics as being more susceptible to crime.

 

-EDIT- sorry for the lateness of the reply, i have recently had to finish a masters dissertation, three pieces of coursework and three exams.

Edited May 17, 2007 by SeVeR

[NBVegita]

It does show that poor people commit more crimes, I won't argue that, but it is just an excuse. Robing someone is the easy way out. You don't have the strength to work for what you want so you have to take it. People in poverty show a distinct lack of motivation to better themselves or their lives.

 

And I do say that the black americans today did dig their own hole. I will stand by that too.

[SeVeR]

There are people on both sides of the poverty line who do not have the effort to make a life for themselves, and to earn money. It's not limited to poor people... i should know, i go to university .

 

But anyway, we just see the poor lazy people turning into thieves because they cannot function any other way. The rich lazy people can just get away with it.

 

I do see a distinct lack of motivation from those living in poverty, but can it be the reason they turn to crime? These people may just be risk-takers and anarchists who have no respect for the law and who believe they can get away with breaking it. They see crime as their "legitimate job"... i mean they still have to work at crime and their work:salary ratio is probably not much better than a well-paid job anyway.

 

I can't believe that African Americans dug their own hole. Before the 1960's they were pushed into those poor areas and not given any kind of respectable jobs, its hard to turn whole communities around in 4 decades.

[»freakmonger]

Yea, how can anyone want to go to Iraq? How can anyone think they need to go to Iraq?

 

I wanted to go...and I did

[»freakmonger]

Do you know anybody who is considering military service?

 

Well, here are some caveats about going into the service voluntarilly:

 

 

1. you relinquish all your rights under the Bill of Rights when you sign up for service under this "dictatorship"

not true, actually you gain more PROTECTION than non military when serving overseas

 

2. military recruiters are renowned liars who will promise you "the Brooklin Bridge deed' for signing up

Your own personal opinon

 

3. the US military is super ANTI-GUN (much. much more than the civilian sector): if you value your gun rights, you might want to think twice about volunteering for that crap

If you are stationed in the U.S. then you fall under your State Laws regarding gun control. And with my job I am authorized to carry a firearm on a plane (commercial flights), in the White House, Pentagon and other areas where firearms are prohibited.

 

4. you give up much when you sign up, to say the very least: if you want college money, try grants, scholarships and federal student aid first

Actually almost all branches of the services offer signing bounes

 

5. enlisting into the service is stipulated in the form of a legal contract with highly complex fine print: it is not printed in BOLD PRINT on a military enlistment contract that you relinquish virtually all your rights as an American citizen!!!

you truly are an idiot

 

 

Are you typing this from a computer within the U.S.? If you are, then you are welcome. Because if it wasn't for the military then you would be speaking German right now.

[»freakmonger]

A gun is a weapon, and a weapon intended to harm other beings. A car is how we get to where we need to go. When a gun is used, it is used on a rare occasion and meant to cause damage.

 

Funny, when I use a gun it is to stop someone from harming someone else. You speak of criminals using guns, what about Law Enforcement Officers that follow the deadly force procedures? Changes your whole situation. (and yes, Law Enforcement Officers abuse sometimes, but then those who don't follow their departments procedures regarding the use of deadly force puts them into the criminal category)

[Aileron]

That's actually not the point either. Police officers should not hold a monopoly in the security department. Having private detectives and armed security workers is important. What such civilian groups provide is a bare minimum level of performace for the police.

 

If only police officers carried guns, then every armed criminal would require a citizen to call the police to deal with them. Under such cir!@#$%^&*stances the government could tax whatever they wanted to provide minimal security, the only compe!@#$%^&*ion would be for the office of the elected official who runs the police, and even then its a two party system, which could result in an oligarchy.

 

Thus, armed civilians place a bare minimum performance for the police department. Such private compe!@#$%^&*ion to government agency is critical to democracy.

[»freakmonger]

I never said police officers should be the only ones to carry guns...

[SeVeR]

I wanted to go...and I did

What made you want to go?