The Modernization Of 17th Parallel

[Zioneer]

This is a log from a long time ago after Zeke and I were discussing the situation in 17th.

 

MikeTheNos> Makaveli, what do you want?

Makaveli> I want this zone to be the best, most newbie friendly, and biggest zone in SubSpace

MikeTheNos> I know that. But how do you supposed to do that?

Makaveli> I know exactly how to do it Mike

Makaveli> I've written it down

MikeTheNos> ok, how?

Makaveli> i actually spent 9 hours writing it one night when I was bored

Makaveli> I'm gonna post it on the forum when I come back to Sweden

MikeTheNos> Ok, leave the forum alone untill you can actually post that.

 

Well here I am, months later, some days ago I decided to finish what I had began writing and I've just finished the edited version of the do-*BAD WORD*-ents that I wrote (I've deleted the part about staff, since it's very changed from what it was when I wrote it).

 

This is my idea of how to modernize 17th in order to make it bigger, more interesting, and more fun.

Please take the time to read it all, and tell me what you think.

 

Let me start off by saying that even though I admire Nurples' and Zeke's hard work on the settings all these months, I have to say that they have changed 17th Parallel completely, just too much. Right now, and for a long time, we haven't been playing 17th how it was made to be played.

17th has a few words that you can read before you enter the zone by left-clicking on the zone. These words were never changed after Nurples and Zeke changed the public gameplay. Which was wise if you ask me, because these words demonstrates how 17th Parallel should be played.

"Fast paced team turf style. Keep your own territory while at the same time fighting to take over your adversary's."

 

As it is right now, people only play in bases to score the ball. They have nothing else to do in the bases, so people play wherever. There are rarely any battles in North. The gameplay's main objective is simply to score a ball, and most people don't even do that, they just fly around to get King Of the Hill.

 

 

"Unique ships and map."

 

As most of you know probably already know, 17th Parallel was the demarcation line between North and South Vietnam.

 

17th Parallel is based on the Vietnam war that lasted 10 years. It takes place in the middle of the war, and its name derrives from the location of the demilitarized zone dividing North and South Vietnam.

 

Where the north forces fought against the south forces. Like every war, this was a war about control: with control comes power, and with power comes money (or what we subspacers call "points").

 

People in upperstaff have thought of different ways of changing the zone to attract players.

Vile Requiem wants the pub to a map based on soccer, I truly believe that 17th could be far more interesting than that, and we already have enough scoring zones in SubSpace, why change 17th into something it's not?

 

There was nothing wrong with the old shipset except the weasel. The old shipset was what gave 17th that special feeling that you couldn't find anywhere else, it was how it was supposed to be played. And trust me, I've played this game for more than two years and I've played on almost every zone in SSC, 17th truly was unique. The 17th gameplay couldn't be found anywhere else.

 

So my idea is to bring back the 17th Parallel gameplay, the way the zone was made to be played, but in a modern way, still with the original old theme, but in a new form.

I've created a new old map (still might need some work) where each side still fights to control the bases, not over a couple of flags, but over different sectors inside the bases. Each sector contains 4 flags, that would give the team X amount of points per minute.

 

 

The Ships

 

The unique 17th Parallel gameplay would be impossible to be played without the unique ships, since some people have been ignoring this fact, here are details of the ships that can be called our own (minus the old weasel, I have created my own that might needs some tweaking).

 

The comments under [Mission] is what the ship's mission would be during a hosted game (minus the obvious: to kill the enemy and control the flags)

 

 

Warbird - Helicopter

 

Equipment: Level 3 bullets, level 2 bombs, x-radar

Special(s): 1 Decoy, 1 Repeller, 1 Burst, 1 Thor's Hammer.

Strength(s): Ability to carry maximum two turrets, top speed.

Weakness(es): Slow acceleration.

Final comments: Alone, it can be very powerful if it is flown right, but it's hard to use, so it's not recommended for new players.

[Mission]: To transport levis and give backup fire to the weaker teammates.

 

 

Javelin - Marine

 

Equipment: Level 3 bullets, level 1 bombs.

Special(s): 1 Decoy.

Strength(s): Excellent maneuverability, short bullet delay, powerful bullets.

Weakness(es): Unable to detect cloaked ships.

Final comments: The pilot of this ship should keep away from narrow spaces because of the cloakers.

[Mission]: To work as backup for the weaker teammates.

 

 

Spider - Guerilla

 

Equipment: Level 1 bullets (single barrel), level 1 bombs/mines, cloak, stealth.

Special(s): 3 Bursts, 3 Portals, 1 Decoy.

Strength(s): Able to cloak and stealth, able to portal.

Weakness(es): Weak bullets, weak bombs, slow acceleration speed and comparably low maximum energy.

Final comments: The spider is a basing ship, it's a !@#$%^&*an in bases, but weak in open spaces. Against X-Radarless ships, it's almost invinsible in narrow spaces because of its unique specials: burst and portal. But even the ships who are equipped with X-Radar have to watch out because of the spider's unique ability to portal. The Terrier is the Spider's worst enemy because of its unique ability to prevent warping.

[Mission]: To wait till the right moment when many enemies are in the same narrow area, and whipe out as many of them as possible by bursting.

 

 

Leviathan - Heavy Artillery

 

Equipment: Level 3 bullets, level 3 bombs.

Special(s): 3 Thor's Hammers.

Strength(s): Extremely powerful and fast bombs, very high maximum energy. Equipped with Thor's Hammer that can p!@#$%^&* through walls.

Weakness(es): Slow recharge, slow rotation, slow speed, inattachable.

Final comments: It's the only ship that can carry level 3 bombs, it's the ship that does most damage with one hit. Its very short bullet delay makes it dangerous for the enemy to attack it in close battles, but by taking advantage of its weaknesses, it shouldn't be a problem. "Very slow and often used to defend choke points or to act as a turret".

[Mission]: To work as a backup unit together with the warbird (turret) or lock a hallway by bombing from a bunker.

 

 

Terrier - Jeep Convoy

 

Equipment: Level 1 bullets (single barrel), level 2 bombs/mines, stealth, anti-warp.

Special(s): 3 Repellers, 1 Decoy.

Strength(s): Able to lay maximum 8 mines, 6 before recharging is needed. Able to repel away enemy. Able to prevent enemy from warping and can detect cloaked ships.

Weakness(es): Hard to maneuver, weak single barrel bullets.

Final comments: Because of its mines, x-radar, anti-warp and repeller, the terrier is a very important defender ship.

[Mission]: To mine the sector's entrances and to repel enemy mines/ships/fire.

 

 

Weasel - Hovercraft

 

Equipment: Level 2 bullets.

Special(s): 1 Decoy.

Strength(s): Top speed (afterburners), agility.

Weakness(es): The only ship that isn't equipped with bombs. Inattachable

Final comments: The Weasel (Hovercraft) is the only ship that has afterburners, which almost doubles its maximum speed, so obviously, the weasel is the ultimate flagging ship.

[Mission]: To flag as much as possible and to work as backup unit in weaker positions.

 

 

Lancaster - Napalm Plane

 

 

Equipment: Level 2 bullets (single barrel), level 2 bombs, x-radar.

Special(s): (None).

Strength(s): Bombs that can bounce six times before they explode, each bomb releases a large amount of shrapnel when it explodes. Able to see cloaked ships.

Weakness(es): The Lancaster is the ship with the weakest bullets, single barrel level 2, with relatively long delay between shots, so it has no defense when its enemy is too close to bomb.

Final comments: Because of its bouncing bombs, The Lancaster is probably the most effective base defender/attacker.

[Mission]: To lock the square sectors and hallways.

 

 

Shark - Special Ops Unit

 

Equipment: Level 2 bullets, level 2 bombs/mines, stealth, cloak.

Special(s): 2 decoys, 2 bricks.

Strength(s): Invisible to most enemy ships, wide bullet spread.

Weakness(es): Not so very powerful bullets.

Final comments: The shark is a fighter/bomber that has an extra ability: to mine. Its bullets are weaker than a normal fighter, but it can also have wider spread when multi-fire is turned on.

[Mission]: Its main area is in the tube where bricks can be needed during an enemy invasion. When the home base is locked, its mission is to block entrances with mines and bricks when the enemy arrives.

 

 

The Gameplay

 

The map can be found at ?go NewOldMap

The bases are formed by 6 different sectors.

The objective is to gain as much control (flags) as possible.

 

Each pilot is sent to control the flags in his sector.

The team is divided by 3 groups, the north division, the south division, and the backups.

The backups are pilots that don't have any specific positions, but are sent to help in a sector where the enemy has locked it too well for the positioned teammates to invade.

The divisions are formed by 1 terrier, 2 lancasters, 1 shark and 1 spider.

The backups are formed by 1 levi, 1 warbird and 1 weasel OR javelin.

Each ship has an area where it works best. Though, all ships are needed almost everywhere depending on the situation, but when a team locks a base, each pilot should hold his position.

 

So a team consists of:

 

2 terriers, 4 lancasters, 2 sharks, 2 spiders, 1 levi, 1 warbid and 1 weasel/javelin

 

11 in total.

 

Logically, a game like this would require skilled management for the teams. A team would need a north captain, a south captain, and a "general".

The captains should be the terriers or sharks, since they can see most of what's going on.

The general doesn't even need to play in a ship. It would actually be easier for him to lead his team from spec, so that he can see the whole battlefield and know where his groups are needed where.

 

I am in need of a bot that would host this kind of game, but more about that when Explody Thingy is finished with it

 

A hosted game would go something like this..

 

First of all, before anything, pilots must discuss who plays in which ship and in which position.

The teams start in their own safety (west or east).

When the host (bot) says "go", the pilots rush to get the flags, (the weasel would obviously be the first to touch a flag, but it's inattachable so people can't just attach to it, they have to transport themselves).

After 30 minutes, the bot displays the half time scores. After a minute or two of half time break, the bot resets the flag game and starts the second half.

Before the second half starts, the team should decide if the divisions switch sides or not.

After the second half is over, the final scores are displayed by the bot in a green arena message.

 

I believe that this would attract new players: by giving you something that you can't find anywhere else.

Sure, dsb has the same way of hosting a game like this, but everything else is different and unique.

I also strongly believe that this is how 17th was made to be played, I can honestly say that I don't believe this is my idea, it was the 17th creators' idea, the concept of the game has been right in front of our noses, it's just that nobody seemed to see it for some reason.. I just saw it and this is my idea of modernizing it.

[tablet]

I love it, full scaled war and tactics jammed into an hour long battle inside this 15" box i call a monitor.....

 

zio.. you are the -*BAD WORD*-in shiz

[NBVegita]

Good show zio, this is what I've been trying to do with the maps I've fiddled with, bring back what 17th was. A nice battle for position and flags is much more interesting then just plain soccer.

 

good show

[Vile Requiem]

Word to that, word to that.

[Lea]

:eek:

 

Good job Maka!

[DaKillaRoach]

Ah, Smells like 17th.

 

Can I say a few things, but just ignore me cause i'm predjudice ^_^

 

Lancaster and its 1 bullet stream. Yeah its ok but I love the spread cause it actually makes it effective. There isnt much point in having it otherwise coz well... 1 bullet streams suck -*BAD WORD*- when equipped to a lanc.

 

Levi... hmm..... I like it but it always needed something to me, the minute increase in recharge or something.

 

Terr now only has 3 (I thought it only ever did have) but according from the halloween special it had 8! or even 9 someone said!!!! I mean wtf lol.

Let it only hav 6 mines, 8 is a bit... overkill for a jeep, thats something I always wanted to say about the old settings.

 

Well thats my bit, very well done zion, hope it happens cause it made me stay in 17th.

 

Just some suggestions for minute tweaks (btw, i like the weasel idea but the old weasel still rocked shame so many peeps complained heh)

[kentbrockman]

i honestly think there should still be a ball game within this. i love the idea, sir, and its true that vile is going wrong with it being a simple ball game. i like the flags spread on both sides, but i think the two very ends should be scoring nets. wouldnt hurt.

[000]

so much -*BAD WORD*-en writing im not reading that

[Omega Ody]

Ok. Here are my two cents worth.

 

The Weasel, IMO, needs a bit of tweaking.

First of, its a scout, so its supposed to be weaker and smaller. It has 1700 nrg and has a 2 block radius...whatever. Also, its a scout, so I would assume it to be a foot soldier. I think it's health should be lessened a bit, but not to 900 since it lacks the bomb. It should be reduced to 1x1, or whatever it is now in pub; since its a scout, it should be able to fit in places where other bigger units wouldnt be able to fit. I like the afterburners, but I think it should eat off the health a little, since a running man will experience fatigue.

 

One more thing, about the lancaster. You can give it multi spread fire, but take away that -*BAD WORD*-ed jump forward when it fires its bomb. Since when did firing napalm jerk someone in that direction?

[talion]

maka, you have obviously put alot of thought into this, so i will try not to send the hate vibes too strongly this post... that said, i haven't actually played in the arena, so im working from your descriptions for the ships.

 

well, those ships seem based mostly on the old settings. which is fine. but you took alot of typing to say you'd like the old sets the weasel doesn't seem to have any holes, but maybe clear up if the afterburner is free/negative/offsettings (0 nrg change when used).

 

as for the map (such that is discernible on the diagram), it seems a bit large for 22 players, especially with three entrances. i think adding some rooms, not huge ones, would also make the secondary entrances more interesting from a team perspective, as once a team loses the entrance to one they are basically screwed out of holding the whole base, as that back circular room seems key to the whole affair. those little thing you have sticking out of the wall along the top passage don't count. it would also make the secondary passages viable for more ships than the spider/shark. im not talking huge, whole screensized rooms, just places where teams can make a stand, and use any ships that are on the team. also, ?buying bounce looks like it'd be even more painful in that base.

 

which brings me to the problem of forcing ships on people. number one, how will you determine who gets the last say in who gets what ships? number two, forcing people into certain ships will not necessarily force them into playing the role that ship is designed for. you could have a newbie spider out dogfighting. number three... ok well there's no number three. but forcing people into certain ships doesn't seem right to me. in DSB you get to pick from 4 of 8. in other zones you get to pick from 8 of 8. in this arrangement, you'd get to pick from whatever's not yet taken. and if i know human nature at all, it will usually not be the best ship in the zone. (i know when i was a mod i told people to play jav or wb to get comfortable in the zone, wtf is a newbie playing spider or shark going to do? get creamed, most likely). wait there is a number 3! what do you do when there's more than 22 people who want to play pub? make a second public arena? sounds great. but i it's rare to have more than 30 people playing pub, this whole arrangement strikes me as odd for those 8 people who'd get shafted out of the spots in the real pub.

 

well... that's all for now...

 

see? no hate vibes.

[talion]

oh yeah:

 

i think you should rethink not having a balling element in the arena. flags don't have the same immediate / visible goal as scoring with the ball does.

 

and the bot for this seems like alot of work... i know explody is good at making bots but this seems like a bit much.

[Guest Unison]

Bring back old settings from around 2 years ago minus the weasel that always needed to be changed. Make a point requisite for banner use and make the game more fast paced up to the minute with hardcore fighting while not trying to overdo it. Simple map not too big ez to get around but still unique and complex it its own way. Use the jav from seraphim squadhall. duh put my map back up thanks.

[Stylez]

Kudos Maka. I like the idea...

 

If you need any help on making a map or settings I'm good at those things if you need any help.

 

Also I liked Jim's basewars map they had once in 17th, it had a north and south base with tunnels to go through and it was very well designed. I dont think it's up anymore though....

 

The hardest thing to do really is getting people to actually play pub, since most vets are to weary of playing it now a days...

 

But I think we need to get rid of the soccer game, and make 17th primarly a flagging/basing zone. Where theres a north and south base (vietnam style) with lots of trees and bushes in the way and have lots of tunnels to go through to get to the other side.

 

I have some real good idea's for a good map, contact me if you wanna hear what I got on my mind, not saying the one you have isn't good already, but I think I can make one more suitable for hardcore action yet still attractive to the eye when you first enter the zone. Plus make it good for league events and such....

 

Anyways, get at me if you want to talk about it.

 

Peace

[Zioneer]

I thank you all for your inputs.

 

About the weasel: I was talking about it with tablet/blue silver yesterday and he made me realize that it shouldn't be named "Scout".

The whole idea with the weasel (which I had more than a year ago) was to introduce a new fighter to the zone. I mean, I for one am a little tired of the Jav heh. And as I said more than a year ago, introducing a new fighter would open up doors to new events.

Its mission would still be to scout and flag, but it's not just a scout, it's a fighter/scout.

It's based on the Javelin. It's actually equal with the Javelin in duels.

My english vocabulary isn't exactly the best so I couldn't think of a [military unit] name for the weasel.

 

Anyways, I've done some research and I think that the best name for the weasel would be Hovercraft.

 

The military hovercraft is able to achieve a higher speed than any craft in its class.

One more thing, about the lancaster.  You can give it multi spread fire, but take away that -*BAD WORD*-ed jump forward when it fires its bomb.  Since when did firing napalm jerk someone in that direction?

 

Well, weapons in SubSpace are't exactly real, they're from the "future" so they're unknown.

The lanc's unique forward-thrust that it receieves when it fires a bomb is one of the reasons why I love that ship. It can be both a weakness and a strength when it comes to maneuvering, you just gotta turn it into your strength.

 

 

the weasel doesn't seem to have any holes, but maybe clear up if the afterburner is free/negative/offsettings (0 nrg change when used).

The energy freezes when you use afterburners.

 

Talion, I think you misunderstood some things. Maybe I should have made some things clearer, I'll try to explain.

 

as for the map (such that is discernible on the diagram), it seems a bit large for 22 players, especially with three entrances.  i think adding some rooms, not huge ones, would also make the secondary entrances more interesting from a team perspective

 

That is just one of the two bases.

 

The team is divided by 3 groups, the north division, the south division, and the backups.

So one base is 5vs5 (possibly: + backups). You say it's too big for 22 players? Hm.

Well, I think you should check it out first.

The base is easy to lock, but it's hard to keep it locked when you can be attacked from 4 different directions.

 

?buying bounce looks like it'd be even more painful in that base.

 

Check out the arena. The settings aren't the same as in pub. e.g. there are no ?buy options.

 

Another thing you misunderstood was about who can fly which ship.

The setup that I presented is for a hosted game.

In pub, anyone can fly anything and anywhere.

The ships in this shipset aren't made as ships that can beat any other ship anywhere. That's why there are different ships for different locations and situations.

Every ship has weaknesses as much as strengths. The regular newbie in pub would soon learn that he can't just get in a Jav and go straight inside the base and take it over. He'd get schooled by the spiders, and so, he is forced to use another ship.

Team play is required for any good game. With this map in the public arena, most players would probably still be flying around in the center of the map.

The public arena would need a bot that is modified for pub, e.g. it wouldn't have any half time breaks.

 

The bot for this seems like alot of work... i know explody is good at making bots but this seems like a bit much.

 

Well, he told me that it would be easy to create it, but I'm not sure if he understood exactly what kind of bot I asked him to make, with this post maybe I made it a little clearer for him.

 

I do agree about the map though, it still needs some work. Right now sectors are just mirrored 3x4 1x2.

 

I'm sorry for not making things so clear, I just wanted to post this once and for all lålz I didn't even re-read what I had written.

 

I was thinking about waiting for Jim to help me to make this map, since as we all know that he's the best map maker around here http://www.hitemup.com/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif

 

Again, thanks for the inputs. I'm glad you like the idea. Together, we can make it work.

 

P.S. I changed the name of the weasel in my first post.

[DaKillaRoach]

Yeah its sounding more and more better as you delve into it more Zio(N) keep it up

 

I like the ideaor another fighter like craft, gives people something else to worry about without the invicibility of the current weasel lol. Thats always been the problem with 17th, what the weasel will be, and as long as you get the right amount of settings on it, you might of just cracked this 3 year puzzle!

 

The map i'm unsure of, its good but seems big for a event, while in a pub play it would be fine for the later times in pub, but too big again for the non popular times. How about looking over ?go nbvpub (i believe its called that, ask Tempest= or Lovewar for the correct name if I got it wrong) which is a brilliant map (if its the correct one i'm thinking of lol) which all sorts of tunnels and mazes and stuff, nice and fiddly ^_^

 

One more thing, I would say keep the thrust on the lancaster, its what gets me out of trouble most of the time by thrusting around a corner or something similar to avoid pain.

But bring the multi spread into it coz I believe it really does need it. They arent strong but they scare off the majority of the attackers for a little while and provide a good retreat option.

[kentbrockman]

the middle has lost all purpose. with no ball in the middle, you know that people are just going to use it to rise there record, instead of flagging.

[madhaha]

Rethink the map and the settings and try again.

[Zioneer]

The map i'm unsure of, its good but seems big for a event, while in a pub play it would be fine for the later times in pub, but too big again for the non popular times. How about looking over ?go nbvpub

The map I made is made for 11vs11 yes. It has more space inside the base than the common 17th Pub map, and I think it's necessary for better battles.

 

NBV's map is a whole different thing. Personally I don't like the narrow spaces because you can't maneuver your ship with much freedom.

 

They arent strong but they scare off the majority of the attackers for a little while and provide a good retreat option.

 

The lanc is a bomber though. The guns are only good for lanc vs lanc battles when they're too close to bomb. The only difference it would make if I gave it multi would be that it requires less aim, the bullet damage would be the same, so anyone who knows anything would know that it's not good enough to kill.

 

Personally, I would like to keep all the ships from the old shipset how they are because of that "special feeling" that you can't find anywhere else, every single detail that they changed when they first changed it took away a little more of that feeling..

 

the middle has lost all purpose. with no ball in the middle, you know that people are just going to use it to rise there record, instead of flagging.

True. That's why I want a bot that would host a 15-30 minute game to make flagging more attracting.

 

But as I said, as it is now, most people are flying around reccing anyway, and the King Of The Hill game adds to the reccing's attraction.

There wouldn't be any KOTH game in this arena, so it would be pointless to just fly around and kill.

 

Balling is another thing that would distract people from the flag game.

 

I think we need to get rid of the soccer game, and make 17th primarly a flagging/basing zone.

 

Agreed.

[DaKillaRoach]

I think you should keep KOTH personally, gives people some sort of importance and points other than flags. You gotta have some sort of killing in 17th.

 

Also the multifire is brilliant if you use it properly. I cant say you have a good view on it Zion unless you really try it. It gives good reteart against javs and other fighters, provides nice killing against levis and stuff in enclosed areas and means you can cover passages with more than just bombs when low on energy. Also it doesnt improve aim, some might say it lowers it bcause of the spread, but it helps in my opinion.

[Zioneer]

I think you should keep KOTH personally, gives people some sort of importance and points other than flags. You gotta have some sort of killing in 17th.

Well, you need to kill whoever is guarding the sectors no? Heh

 

Also the multifire is brilliant if you use it properly. I cant say you have a good view on it Zion unless you really try it.

 

I'm sure it is brilliant, but you have to look at the shipset as a whole and not look at one ship at a time.

The point is, the lancaster is a bomber. It was meant to have weak guns.

 

Believe me when I say that hoho and Caress knew what they were doing when they created the shipset, heh.

All those details are there for reasons. Nurples and Zeke and whoever else who changed the shipset knew nothing about what they were changing..

[DaKillaRoach]

Well prehaps keeping KotH will draw a few more peeps together, bcoz I understand you dont want to fully base the game on killing, but along the way 17th like other zones has always possessed the want to just kill at times.

 

And maybe i'm wrong about the lanc, but after playing both of them for a long while, I have always found the multifire a big benefit and losing it might cause some stir, i'm not sure, but it seems a !@#$%^&*et, because other wise its not worth having guns on it, bcause the other ones are so dam weak as slow single shots its a waste of time :/

[Zioneer]

Well prehaps keeping KotH will draw a few more peeps together, bcoz I understand you dont want to fully base the game on killing, but along the way 17th like other zones has always possessed the want to just kill at times.

I want 17th Pub to be one game. The way it is now, people can do three different things: Score, flag in north (which nobody ever do anymore) or try to win KOTH.

Most people just kill. What kind of pub is that? I mean, that's what the Jav events are for.

 

And remember, I designed this pub as a game that can be played as a league. That's the whole point of this project: to make pub a real game that players would find fun and later when the population rises, create a league.. a big league http://www.hitemup.com/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif

 

Soo.. you see, it would seem silly to me if I threw in King Of The Hill, heh.

I think it would be better if we concentrate on one game.

 

And maybe i'm wrong about the lanc, but after playing both of them for a long while, I have always found the multifire a big benefit and losing it might cause some stir, i'm not sure, but it seems a !@#$%^&*et, because other wise its not worth having guns on it, bcause the other ones are so dam weak as slow single shots its a waste of time :/

 

Yes. As I said, the Lancaster was designed as a bomber. The guns were only meant to be good for Lanc vs Lanc situations (when they're too close to bomb).

[reload]

I <3 you Mak. You posted all my thoughts. Good work, Mak. I hope the Upper Staff listens to you.

[Vile Requiem]

It is quite true at this point that any new pub would have to have league upgradability built into it.

[LoVeWAR]

i like zioneer's map desigh, and the bases look promising.. we should give it a try gj zio