Capital Punishment

[Dav]

There is something about capital punishment that looks to me like sinking to the level of the criminal.

 

I believe that they should be locked up and their freedom taken away entirely, no contact no games no nothing. This will give them time to come think about what they have done and in many cases feel the full force of guilt for what they have done.

 

To me that seems like a punishment worse then death, guilt being such a strong emotion, and if they are released i'm sure they wont be doing it again.

 

From the christian point of view this also gives them time to reflect and repent.

[ThunderJam]

The fight can go both ways. While most Christians will say, "What gives us the right to take away someone else's life?" based on the core Christian belief of forgiveness and love (even though not all follow that, but that's another topic completely) you can also argue that perspective by saying, "What gave that person the right to take someone else's life to begin with?"

I don't think (at least among the Christians i know) that Christians are unanimous (or majority siding one way) on this topic. "An eye for an eye" is how I would judge it. However, i think the death penalty should only apply to extreme premeditated (i think thats what they call it) murder.

 

No-one gave the murderer the right to play God. They took it upon themselves to play God and a Catholic of all people should know the consequences for murder in the afterlife. Is it worth going to !@#$%^&* to exact justice in this life or do you think God wants mankind to execute the sinners? The way i see it, capital punishment is murder, it's playing God, but for a Christian it's also murder in the name of God and a presumption of Gods will.

Good point, the murderer is attempting to play the role of God. Honestly, at some point morals almost go out the window, such as in Saddam's case. Saddam got off lucky, the death sentence is too light for some people. Saddam should have been tied to a pole naked in a room with the families of everyone he killed. Maybe he'd be sorry then.

 

Edit: sever you shouldn't have categorized all Christians as catholics

Edited March 18, 2007 by ThunderJam

[NBVegita]

Being we have a separation of church and state religion should have no say in capital punishment. Because being religion is 100% on the belief of the person, and if you look at most serial killers, they were very religious. Some have even believed that they are doing the work of god. Now when they die, to you they are going to "!@#$%^&*". To them they are going to "heaven" and in reality no one knows for sure what the !@#$%^&* will happen to them.

 

And I don't personally believe that when a man murders or kills he is playing "God" If you look at our bodies and evolution, we are essentially designed to kill. "God" doesn't kill men. Men kill men. "God" has never taken a shotgun and blown off a guys head. "God" doesn't drive drunk and kill someone. We are just a society that dictates if a man killing is right or wrong, If you believe on a relitious level that it is wrong to kill a murderer for killing an innocent, fine, don't pull the switch, but don't try to stop me from doing it. And don't try to use a religion that I don't believe in to justify why I'm not allowed to do something.

[Aileron]

Well, that's not even the point Veg. According to my memory, the official Vatican opinion on capital punishment is that if you knew absolutely that the murderer did the crime, than capital punishment is acceptable. However, since no mortal body is infallible, they believe capital punishment shouldn't be used for that reason.

 

In my opinion, that's goes a little too far and is an overreaction made by clergy who have spent their entire careers apologizing for supposed crimes of the past. My point being, sometimes guilt is clear, and sometimes the crime is so heinous that life in prison is simply not enough.

 

For instance, I'd say that any murder that occurs on a video camera from a reliable source, along with other corroborating evidence, we'd be sure of the guilt. If we don't have such iron-clad evidence, life would be more appropriate, but if the certainty of guilt was THAT absolute, the option for death sentence should be open.

[*rc 1223*]

i think if u do something bad enough (killing, child molesting) that should be the penalty

[Dav]

with things like child molesting (sick as it may be) you will start a moral argument that they did not take a life so you cannot take theirs.

 

If you are going to do something like this then the bar has to be set at an acceptable level to the majority.

 

Fact is you will never please everyone with this, no matter how high some will believe capital punnishment is wrong.

 

For things like child molestation, stealing and violant crime some argue for corpral punishment but this is met with more controvercy then capital in many cases.

 

Personally, as i posted earlier, i disagree with killing murderers as letting them rot in a cell is a better punishment. A guilty concience is a hard thing to live with.

 

Only time ill support corpral punishment is with sex offenders by removal of their genitaila. Simple reason for this is that thay are unlikly to reform, its like forbidding you guys from looking at and attractive woman or having sex with an attrctive woman ever again. Sexual orientation seems to be a fixed thing made worse if its forbidden. Remove the means and a sex offender cannot offend again.

[*rc 1223*]

Only time ill support corpral punishment is with sex offenders by removal of their genitaila.

haha i think that'll make them think twice

[larrythehamster]

"That'll make them think twice"

 

Once for each testicle?

[Shlazzer]

The death penalty is ridiculous, in my opinion. The money and resources it takes to run the trial for a death penalty case can easily amount to the amount of money it would take for a life-long incarceration. After all the appeals, lawyers, judges, jury, it quickly adds up.

Not to mention that the murder in the US hasn't changed all that dramatically since the reinstatement of the death penalty. One who does take the time for pre-meditated murder is probably not the type of person who stops and views the consequences his actions might incur. And for non pre-meditated murder, described nicely as "in the moment" murder, you are so in the zone of killing this person that you don't stop in mid-stab to think "Oh man, if I do this, I'll get the death penalty." The human Psychy just doesn't work that way.

 

 

 

 

Not to mention, other European countries WITHOUT the death penalty, have a LOWER MURDER RATE than the US, who does have the death penalty.

[NBVegita]

I'd like to find out your sources because the reports I've investigated show that in countries that abolished capitol punishment, the violent crime rate has been on a steady increase.

[MillenniumMan]

VEG: You're right, look at Illinois where not only has the death penalty been abolished, but private ownership of handguns in the city of Chicago has been deemed a big boo-boo. As you can pull up from Chi-town newspapers, FBI stats and so forth, these thugs see the lack of a death penalty permission to keep partying until they kill themselves, not the other way around.

 

In DC, same situation, major murder rate, rape, robbery and so on, because the thugs have the gear and normal people don't.

 

Better example, George whatshisname from the beatles, had his mansion with security cameras and high fence busted into. The robber only had a knife, jabbed him a dozen times and robbed him blind. This is in England, the most gun-unfriendly english speaking country I know of. Again, the EU if I am not mistaken has no death penalty as a part of its charter.

 

 

A few Sledge Hammer guidelines to crime and punishment:

 

The death penalty: Too lienient.

 

Jaywalking: fire a couple of warning shots.

 

Illegal parking in a handicapped spot: Shoot out their tires and make them walk home.

 

Armed robbery of a convenience store, the robber claims he is too poor to buy food: Make the robber eat food that has expired more than a couple of decades ago from the shelves.

 

Purse !@#$%^&*ing: Hit them with your car, handcuff them to your side view mirror or steering wheel and drive to the police station.

[AstroProdigy]

You ignore the massive crime rates in countries like Texas that are very happy to use the death penalty. The crime rates have increased in Europe due to the increased tensions between immigrants and natives. This has absolutely nothing to do with the death penalty. Tell me what's happening to the crime rates in the United States and specifically states that approve of the death penalty.

 

DC and Chicago have crime because of the poverty and racism present with the large black populations. You can try to hopelessly mediate the problem by murdering people or you can fix the problem at its source. The way you want to do it will bairly make a dent.

Edited May 2, 2007 by AstroProdigy

[NBVegita]

First of Astro, Texas is not a country.

 

Second, if the crime rate is indeed increasing in europe due to tensions between immigrants and natives, what country is the immigrant center of the world?

 

And what is your idea to cut the problem at the source? Give gang member and drug dealers more welfare? Give them jobs, that they won't care about, that we don't have to give? Poverty, especially in the United States is almost wholly dictated by the commitment and motivation of the person. There are also a lot of people who have made bad decisions or over extended and buried themselves in debt. But I don't buy for one instant that crap that poor people stay poor. I came from nothing and have a lot now. I spent more money on the engagement ring for my fiance than my parents spend in rent for an entire year.

 

And if you try to give me the bull!@#$%^&* that its not their fault, and how are they supposed to climb out of poverty being they've been beaten down and have no support. Well if you're trying to tell me that because of how they grew up they are hopeless and can never come out of poverty, I say kill them all or deport them all to poorer countries. If they are not going to be "able" to pull themselves out of poverty on their own, then when they have kids their kids won't be "able" to pull themselves out of poverty, we should just end this vicious cycle now. Instead of spending billions of tax payer dollars a year financing a hopeless cause, we should stop the cause, or at the very least stop funding it. I mean that is simple politics.

[MillenniumMan]

You ignore the massive crime rates in countries like Texas that are very happy to use the death penalty. The crime rates have increased in Europe due to the increased tensions between immigrants and natives. This has absolutely nothing to do with the death penalty. Tell me what's happening to the crime rates in the United States and specifically states that approve of the death penalty.

 

DC and Chicago have crime because of the poverty and racism present with the large black populations. You can try to hopelessly mediate the problem by murdering people or you can fix the problem at its source. The way you want to do it will bairly make a dent.

 

 

*Laughs*

Oh I knew someone was gonna bring up racist crap sooner or later. Let me tell you something. The blacks and hispanics and whoever else you can list have all their freedoms and rights. They do this to themselves. They blame whitiey for their ills. Have you ever gone down to the getto and seen how these s**ts live? They live in their own filty and squaller and blame the white man. They kill because they blame whitey. They have trash removal *if they wouldn't shoot at the trashman*

 

You want to talk about the source, I look at the irresponsible parenting and self inflicted brain damage of trash like this.

I have to live and work around this crap on a daily basis. When you hear a mother call their own son "!@#$%^&*, stupid !@#$%^&*. get yo !@#$%^&* down heah befo I beat you. Get mah f***in' breffix!" And the like, where you see other parents who have five kids from five different daddies and blame whitey *stares at the kids and realizes not a single one is mixed*

 

You're right, we do have to look at the source. Burn them out and start over again. This decline has been going on since the fifties and it gets progressively worse each year.

 

Go ahead and call me a biggot or a racist or whatever, the last bastion of those with no real arguement or small mind is namecalling anyway.

 

 

As for me, as a cash courier I find my .44 is the best deterrent to the death penalty. It's stopped three robberies from happening in the past two years.

[ESCANDAL0SA]

*Laughs*

Oh I knew someone was gonna bring up racist crap sooner or later. Let me tell you something. The blacks and hispanics and whoever else you can list have all their freedoms and rights. They do this to themselves. They blame whitiey for their ills. Have you ever gone down to the getto and seen how these s**ts live? They live in their own filty and squaller and blame the white man. They kill because they blame whitey. They have trash removal *if they wouldn't shoot at the trashman*

 

i disagree. hispanics/blacks/poor people don't do that to themselves. how can they help it if they're born poor? being born into a poor family doesn't give you a head start in life. in fact, being born poor AND of black/hispanic race makes it worse. you also have to realize that our society doesn't give many opportunities for these people to breakthrough and finally make something of themselves. this is how our society works: the rich get richer while the poor stay poor. the rich/poor gap is HUGE. racism is still alive. visible minorities, black and hispanics get pushed into the "projects" because they can't afford to move elsewhere. nothing is done to help these people because nobody cares. the government certainly doesn't care. what do you expect to happen when you have a large group of youths, who are misguided, concentrated in a small area?

 

You want to talk about the source, I look at the irresponsible parenting and self inflicted brain damage of trash like this.

it's not the "irresponsible parenting". these people have low socio-econmic status. this means that BOTH parents in a family have to work, or in some cases, single-parents have to work full-time. this leaves their kids vulnerable to the wrong/incomplete socialization which affects their values/morals/beliefs, especially at an age when it is most important. childcare services aren't made affordable and available to everyone. blame the system and the lack of !@#$%^&*istance for these people.

Edited May 3, 2007 by L0SA

[ESCANDAL0SA]

And if you try to give me the bull!@#$%^&* that its not their fault, and how are they supposed to climb out of poverty being they've been beaten down and have no support. Well if you're trying to tell me that because of how they grew up they are hopeless and can never come out of poverty, I say kill them all or deport them all to poorer countries. If they are not going to be "able" to pull themselves out of poverty on their own, then when they have kids their kids won't be "able" to pull themselves out of poverty, we should just end this vicious cycle now.

 

i agree that it's possible to pull yourself out of a situation like that. BUT you have to admit that it's not an easy thing to do. often, people just give up because it seems almost IMPOSSIBLE. it's overwhelming and they just accept it and say, that's the way it's gonna be. i learned in Sociology, the term "hidden curriculum", which occurs when, for example, teachers make !@#$%^&*umptions about the abilities/intelligence of students based on race. this then causes the students to underestimate themselves, and tell themselves that they won't go far in life. this is the reason why they give up, at a young age too, and say, "what's the point?" and deviation, crimes, etc., is a result of this. the cycle for many is never ending.

[NBVegita]

Well my whole arguement is what more can we do? We can't give untrained people who didn't give a !@#$%^&* enough to even learn to balance their own checkbook, jobs that require large amounts of, if not knowledge, responsibility. In NY, Welfare is abused worse than it is in any other state. Most states have a 5 year limit, while in NY something like 48% of people who are on welfare right now have been on it for over 5 years, and it was somethink like 30% have been on it for over 10.

 

I grew up in a !@#$%^&* neighborhood, and we had to get bag checked, wanded and go through metal detectors just to get into school every day. The problem is that the majority of the "poor" kids, even though a lot of them had more than I did, just didn't care. They'd skip class, deliberately not do their work, and expect that the teacher would just p!@#$%^&* them anyway. And we had 2 great vocational schools in the area, which some students took advantage of. For the students who were not so book smart, they could learn a trade, and these schools would help them get their certification so they can make a good living. Being a machanic, or electrician or carpenter is very good money.

 

But obviously, at least in NY, giving them money doesn't help, because I don't care who you are, after 5-10 years, you could either part time take classes, which in NY if you're on welfare they will pay for community college, or small vocational programs, or you could find a stable job. But when you have untrained, uneducated people, by their own choice, who lack the motivation to do anything better, there isn't much else you can do.

 

I mean growing up where I did I didn't see your "hidden curriculum", more so as kids who don't care, thus don't listen, thus don't learn don't do as well as those that do care and listen. I mean when you're in the 6th grade and have problems doing basic math, thats has nothing to do with the school.

[Aileron]

A solution to that is to force schools to have certain standards acrossed the board. Do that, and then a school has a vested interest in making sure atleast some students pass Over time, you could increase those standards until the school can't afford to give a hidden curriculum to any of their students.

 

This is essentially the jist of the "No Child Left Behind Act". The biggest flaw with this act is that its the Brainchild of President Bush, and Bush decided to go into Iraq, so therefore everyone thinks that the educational plan must be a bad idea.

[MillenniumMan]

Here's the perfect solution to becoming a helpless victim of the system:

 

Do badly in school by causing trouble instead of paying attention to your lessons. At home, in the back alleys or wherever, spread your legs for instant gratification to whomever, pop out a troublemaker, not have the daddy call or give child support, repeat as needed.

 

The least bit of sense would prevent this.

 

 

I want to share a story with you, there was this black youth by the name of Fredrick, he was about fifteen. Had !@#$%^&* dumped on him day and night, beaten and whipped, called !@#$%^&* and garbage.

Instead of sitting there, he decided to pick up books when he could so he could learn to read and write. About seventeen he broke free from his day in and day out taskmaster only to become a great author, speaker educator. Traveled to Europe to speak on his indignities.

 

Let me fill in the rest for you.

 

This young man was Fredrick Dougl!@#$%^&*. During the peak of slavery in the United States he fought back against the worst forms of punishment that his taskmasters could throw at him. He was whipped, cut, switched, worked fourteen hour days on a local Baltimore plantation owned by Mr. Covey, one of the most violent slaveowners around. Starved, dehydrated and left for dead on the floor of a mill barn. then beaten again.

 

He escaped at seventeen to become a real man, a human being who wouldn't let such spite and hate hold him down. Fredrick Dougl!@#$%^&* had written several books at a time where most blacks could barely (if at all) read or write.

 

The worst thing in his life afterwards was the fear that his former owner might pick up one of his books or get word of mouth about his career and head out or send someone to bring back his property, then go through those indignities again.

 

 

But I digress, todays supposed poor and downtrodden have it FAR worse

 

If this man were smart enough to do the right thing and go through all this, don't you think an inner city (fill in the blank supposedly oppressed) could do the same?

[ESCANDAL0SA]

@ NBVegita

 

i grew up in a poor area too, and i went to a school where NOBODY cared about education. my school was poorly funded, ripped up and not enough textbooks, etc. i mean, when you're from a bad neighborhood and the schools are in that condition, what does that tell the students? that their education doesn't matter because they aren't even supplied with the basic things to learn. i understand that people make their own choices, and it's possible to go far if they put their mind to it, but you also have to realize that the area one grows up in affects the amount and quality of resources they get. kids in !@#$%^&* neighborhoods don't care simply because they aren't shown that their future is important. they go to !@#$%^&* schools, they're misguided because their parents are always working, which leads them to give in to peer pressure and commit crimes and so on. also, in my opinion, the education system in america is flawed. there are different levels to, for example, math. i believe it was level 2, level 5, level 7 and AP (i don't quite remember). but what happens with this is that students who are slower in learning and require more help, are pushed to the bottom. it's like a ranking system, so those at the bottom feel helpless. where students who are quick and are able to learn at a faster pace are put in more advanced classes. this creates an unequal path. basically, students who get put in the low level classes don't try because what's the point? the system is set up to benefit those in the higher levels. if a kid doesn't know how to do simple math by grade 6, a lot of it is the education system, as well as on him/her.

[NBVegita]

So we shouldn't reward the students for working hard?

 

One of the biggest bull !@#$%^&* ideas my school ever had was taking away awards for science fair. They used to give out ribbons for first, second and third. Then they decided that it might hurt the kids feelings who didn't win so they cut out all academic compe!@#$%^&*ion. By doing that are you not only not helping the kids who don't care, you are hurting the kids who's only motivation might have been to prove that they are good for something.

 

And I know where you're coming from about the school quality, but its a simple law of politics. If two schools need more money. One school has a dropout rate of 43%, the other 23%, politically and ideally the money will go better in the school with the lower dropout rate. Not saying this is how it always is, as every school and situation is unique.

 

My question to you is when do we stop making excuses for these people and make them own up to what they've done with their own lives? We do we make people, men, women and children accountable for the actions they take, and the consequences that come from that?

 

I personally hold every single person accountable for their actions. Anyone can sit back and blame everyone else for their troubles and the mistakes that they've made, it takes a real man or woman to account for their actions. I apply this to children as well because they are not held accountable nor do they take responsibility for their actions. The age of reasoning is 8. Beyond that you know what is right, what is wrong, what you should do, and that which you shouldn't. Peer pressure is just another excuse for the weak.

 

Everything today is someone else's fault and I'm sick and tired of it.

[ESCANDAL0SA]

well the science fair thing was stupid, rewarding students for that is right. BUT, why reward students with better opportunities for being able to naturally learn faster than others? i'm not making excuses for people and i know that people should be held accountable for their own choices. however, in some situations, when people try their hardest to make ends meet and try their hardest to make something of themselves, but because of their cir!@#$%^&*stances and position in society, it's more difficult... they deserve help to get to the top, or at least to a place that is satisfactory. again, i'm not making excuses, i'm just pointing out that the system is messed up because people who really need help and are honestly tryng their hardest, should have more support but don't get it.

[NBVegita]

See I've experienced a different story on that.

 

When I was in elementary school we had a program called "gifted", then they called it something else more pc. What they would do would 1-2 times a week for a half day or a day they would pile the kids chosen for this program on a bus and I forget where they would go, but they would bring them into an environment designed for smart children to help them excel. Great program, this way the people who are not as smart, or don't pick up things as fast don't feel ashamed to ask questions. They cut the program because they decided it would be better to have a new little league field, which was un needed, instead of having this program.

 

We used to play the "24 game", it's a math game based on adding, subtracting, multiplying and or dividing the 4 single digit numbers on each card to get them to make 24. There used to be a city wide tournament. They stopped that because if kids didn't win they would feel bad.

 

The problem is that you have the bright children, who show up each day and want to learn. They do their homework, they study, they want to succeed. Then in the same class you have children who need to work harder to understand the material, need to do more studying, and these are the kids who don't do their homework, don't show up for class, don't study and generally don't care about their grades. My brother is an elementary teacher and he says the biggest problem with students is that they don't care. They'll have smart kids, but they just don't do their work and just don't care to.

 

So from a political level what are you supposed to do as a city, as a school, as a teacher? Are you supposed to take away programs, as was done in my elementary school, for kids who excel because it makes those kids who have to work harder feel bad? Are we supposed to try to cater school, which is what is starting to happen, towards the kids who don't try and don't care? Now not only are the kids who didn't try before not trying, but now the kids that worked very hard get nothing out of working very hard, so they stop trying as hard. A friend of my fiance's parents is a teacher in florida. No matter how bad the kids do, they can't even fail them. Every student must be allowed into the next grade no matter what their grades were. What kind of bull !@#$%^&* is that? How is that going to help anyone?

 

There is a whole list of things terribly wrong with our education system. And I know there are some teachers who just don't care, but I'm yet to personally meet a teacher where if you come to them for help, that they won't give it to you. But if the students don't care about their education the teacher will start not to care about your education, and will focus on the students who do care.

 

It can be done, out of our top 10 in my graduating class, only 3 of us were "caucasion" the rest of our top 10 was either a minority or an immigrant. And coming from a poor school I got accepted to princeton, but went to Syracuse University on a free ride, we had students at Cornell, Princeton, Duke, MIT and the like, not just in our top 10, but some even in our top 25. A lot of schools add weight to AP classes, not my school. If you took basic algebra that counted just as much towards your GPA as AP Calculus. Everyone in our 25 were AP students. None of us came from wealthy families, none of us had an advantage over our classmates, but we wanted to learn, wanted to do better, and we did.

 

If I have an intolerance for the lower class, it is because after spending the first 18 years of my life with them I am quite frankly disgusted.

[Aileron]

L0SA, life is a ranking system. All living beings must compete in order to survive, and the situation is rarely fair. I for one have little proficiency in the humanities. I didn't take the best English and art courses, and when I did I got bad marks despite working at it. In some cases, I enjoyed those classes, but generally sucked at them. However, I did well in the sciences, and chose a career in the sciences. In my case, the ranking system showed me where my strengths and weaknesses were.

 

In many cases, just knowing your weaknesses solves the problem. I know I suck at art, so I avoided art classes like the plague in college.

 

Besides, the consequences of having no ranking system in high school, and then having the students have to learn their rank the hard way in either college, trade school, or on the job is more painfull.

[MillenniumMan]

See I've experienced a different story on that.

 

We used to play the "24 game", it's a math game based on adding, subtracting, multiplying and or dividing the 4 single digit numbers on each card to get them to make 24. There used to be a city wide tournament. They stopped that because if kids didn't win they would feel bad.

 

 

Oooh... I loved that game. Ever play prime-not prime?

 

To tell you the truth, I didn't care if others felt bad about being underachievers. As far as I was and still am concerned, it's a serious motivational tool to get them to do better. Tell the brat "hey, you want to do better than him? Prove you're better than him!" That's what compe!@#$%^&*ion does, brings the best out in people. Look at the cold war. We had mutualy !@#$%^&*ured destruction but we also had international compe!@#$%^&*ion to get to the moon and better technological races. Then in the 90's that focus shifted on what company could come up with the next big thing to oust the other guys.

 

If you feel !@#$%^&*ty then do something to correct it, just don't go about it the wrong way. Sooner or later someone or something will come along and remove you from the gene pool