[V2.0]

[Drake7707]

Well, these overlapped special tiles were drawn with TestMap Q/W, and that doesnt check for existing special objects & delete existing object and all that stuff... So it's "normal" that they appeared that way in DCME. What is surprising is how continuum handles it... a wormhole graphic 'behind' a space station? wha... weird. I just wonder what happens if you lay solid tiles over special objects...

 

Well that's easy to predict.

 

like this:

 

say the map is this:

 

XXXOOOSX

XXXOOOXX

XXXOOOOO

OOOOOOOO

OOOOOOOO

where X = any tile, O = empty tile, S = special object (in this case a big asteroid)

When DCME saves a map the space right and beneath S are being filled with O.

 

If there are still tiles around the object continuum will draw in this way:

 

XXXOOOO and then S. S is a bigger tile, but that doesn't matter, it just draws S on the map completely (like you would see it as just a big asteroid).

Then a X is drawn, it just draws the tile as any other tile on its place, so drawing over the bitmap placed there of S.

In the next row the last 2 X are also drawn over it.

 

(that is if continuum draws from left to right, top to bottom. If continuum were to draw from right to left, bottom to top, the left top tile of a S is drawn last, so that would make the S the last drawn element, overlapping any other tiles that were already there.)

[Bak]

So the correct way to draw regions is to create a selection, edit elvl attributes, regions, create reg.ion from selection, or is there another way?

 

Nice work guys!

[Bak]

<>

[Drake7707]

regions can also be added from the drop down list on the region toolbar (heh, had to make a custom control for that )

[Drake7707]

u should check this out for the next release

 

http://forums.minegoboom.com/viewtopic.php?t=6801

 

done, told you it was easy to do

[Samapico]

So the correct way to draw regions is to create a selection, edit elvl attributes, regions, create reg.ion from selection, or is there another way?

 

Nice work guys!

 

There is another much simpler way.

Select the region tool, and then choose one of the 2 sub-tools (Selection or Magic Wand), and have fun... Use Ctrl to remove an area from the selected region (Just like the selection tool)

[L.C.]

Who deleted my post? I hate it when mods do that, seriously. A much nicer and better way to do that is to "split the topic, lock the new topic, and send the split topic to Death Row forum." Just how would you like to have your posts just disappear without a trace?

 

EDIT :: If it was either one of you (Sama or Drake), don't expect me to place any input or reports about DCME on your forums. Not like you care anyway.

[Samapico]

wtf are you talking about? I didnt even see that post you're talking about, whatever it was... And I strongly doubt Drake would have deleted it either.

 

 

Not like you care anyway.

And there you are more than wrong... I visit that forum like every 5 minutes just to see if someone has a comment or suggestion or any kind of input =/

[Samapico]

<>

 

And what's that post about? ô.o

[L.C.]

Alright, I accept your reply.

 

If so, that's ultimately weird, because I swear I saw the reply I made to this thread on my mom's PC after I hit Add Reply. I guess I'll have to type it up again tomarrow?

 

My apologies.

[Drake7707]

i haven't seen/done anything oO". I replied that the walltile generator was ready, and went to bed afterwards

 

EDIT :: If it was either one of you (Sama or Drake), don't expect me to place any input or reports about DCME on your forums. Not like you care anyway.

It's just that what i need to keep being motivated, if i don't get any reactions, i tend to conclude ppl don't care anymore.

[Bak]

if using the magic wand to make regions, if i'm on the left half of the tile it works ok, otherwise (if i'm on the right half) it fills the tile to the right of the tile i'm actually clicking on.

[Samapico]

magic wand icon 'hot spot' is at top-right of cursor... (well it's not, but we adjust X and Y according to it)

But I'll check,maybe i forgot that with region tool...

[L.C.]

i tend to conclude ppl don't care anymore.

Sorry :\. The impression that developers/programmers never listen to anything I say has built into me a long time ago and I get kind of frustrated.

 

I can't remember everything, but I'll try to rewrite what I can remember...

 

 

 

I think a simple, understandable, and function Photoshop-like Layers feature should be made (Experimental, just for experimentation). At the moment some conclusions have already been made on to how Continuum renders tiles and such. In my image with the 3x3 grid of spacestations (by their origins) with the wormhole in the same tile as one of the other spacestations (the center has 2 tiles: spacestation and wormhole, validly): I think it would be a benefit for now to really make some kind of exporter that will "decompile" or save the map in human readable code so we can actually see how it is writing the wormhole and the spacestation tile (both of their origins or origin tiles are on the same tile or coordinate). Maybe if we see what DCME is actually doing behind the seens might somehow aid in future or further use to tile layering.

 

Do you understand the tile layering? You merge two tiles directly on top of each other. Of course, one of the two have to be rendering (if it's fully opaque) - the other one will be rendered most likely, but unseen. If transparency in the tile is allowed, you'll see both...atleast one of them clearly being over the other?? But yeah, you already know the format of *.lvl files, so having this in mind, "let us see what it is actually doing in the *.lvl file for layered tiles." Although a true "tile layer" may not exist, we might be able to use this kind of layering to our advantage somehow (or someone may eventually think up of one). Remember the wormhole and spacestation on the same coordinate/tile - how does it know which one is above the other? Is it the first one that is written in the *.lvl the one to be after or below the other tile drawn over the same coordinate? This is the layering I'm talking about. Which one is written first and is the first-written one display before or after the following written tiles on the same coordinate? Come on, let's experiment. Add a simple feature (don't have to put effort/quality into making a leet interface for layers, but enough so that it could be understood and worked with) for controlling tile layer.

 

Another way I imagined it in my mind: before we even came across this finding (I doubt it's a "new" finding), all you had was one XY grid. Let's say that this grid is on Z coordinate 0 (origin of a coordinate/grid plane in 3D). Now we create a new layer - which is basically a "new map" grid, but not on the same Z coordinate. By moving this layer above or below the default grid, we are moving it 1 coordinate unit up or down the Z axis. So it could be at (x, y, 1) or at (x, y, -1). Default grid is (x, y, 0). It should really be written as (1024, 1024, z) or something. Here's an illustration:

5-seconds per frame of 4 total frames, approximately 105KB in Filesize

http://www.hlrse.net/Qwerty/dcme_layers_anim.gif

 

Is this motivating? :]

[Samapico]

Actually, tiles are stored like this in the .lvl:

x

y

tilenr

 

nothing special...

 

for special objects, it simply saves 1 value at the top-left corner of the object.

 

I just wonder what happens if you save 2 different tiles at the same X, Y coordinate... i'm guessing the last one saved will be the last one loaded and will probably overwrite the other one on the tile grid...

 

And special objects do have transparency now I think

 

And no it's not a new finding, just by knowing how tiles are stored, things like these were possible... Only thing is no map editor allowed it...

I just wonder... hmmm... I wonder a lot of things:

 

Say you have a wormhole, and you lay solid tiles all over it (except top-left corner) ... you will 'bump' in the wormhole as if it was solid?

 

And if you lay fly-under tiles... will they 'disable' warping effect of wormhole under them?

I'll make some tests I guess

 

Anyways, one possibility that I see by having the option to enable special tiles overlapping is that you could change your special objects graphics to something smaller, and lay them like that....

 

And I doubt we'll handle multiple layers . Waste of memory, Recode basically every function, ... nah

[L.C.]

for special objects, it simply saves 1 value at the top-left corner of the object.

That I call the origin of the entire tile.

 

I just wonder what happens if you save 2 different tiles at the same X, Y coordinate... i'm guessing the last one saved will be the last one loaded and will probably overwrite the other one on the tile grid...

Well if you were to save your *.lvl with the featuring of weird overlapping tiles, next time you load that *.lvl DCME will delete some of your "weird" stuff. It won't totally fix it, but it fixes some. Download messedup.lvl and try it in Continuum. Now open that in DCME. See any differences?

 

http://www.hlrse.net/Qwerty/dcme2_a.gif illustrates exactly the above. Also notice the weird DCME bug where it marks all the 5x5 tiles of each spacestation with its TileID - it's only supposed to be the top left corner, or atleast the first entire column of the whole column of space stations. Confirm the bug?

 

 

And special objects do have transparency now I think

Didn't they always have transparency? Or am I missing some bit of information I just never seemed to notice?

 

And no it's not a new finding, just by knowing how tiles are stored, things like these were possible... Only thing is no map editor allowed it...

Yup. I've seen this done before, but very very so little did I see in demonstration. Maybe a wormhole or two, or something and that's it. This was years ago. If you only came to Subspace a year or two ago, it was definately long before you came.

 

Say you have a wormhole, and you lay solid tiles all over it (except top-left corner) ... you will 'bump' in the wormhole as if it was solid?

You can put a solid tile over the top-left corner aka origin without having DCME delete the wormhole (unless you reload the *.lvl file in DCME, it will do some strange cleaning up) and that works. Yeah it'll make it "solid-like," the only problem is that if you shoot at it, the edges of the wormhole that borders with the solid tiles: if you were to shoot at these edges your bullets will disappear as normal, but you can't be sucked into the wormhole. You're stuck. If only I could figure out how to allow bullets to p!@#$%^&* through the wormhole entirely and to not warp the user, this would be such an advantage to my zone! I wonder how VIE's scripts worked and how long they existed before they disappeared (did scripts disappear with VIE? if they did, maybe scripting in some form is still there but we don't know how to do it?? ).

 

And if you lay fly-under tiles... will they 'disable' warping effect of wormhole under them?

I'll make some tests I guess

I would play more if it weren't for the wormhole warping me in DCME. ;( By the way, select the wormhole in the tileset while in a ship in DCME. Resize your window so you don't see any of the grid or your ship. Press and hold Q or W (whichever you !@#$%^&*igned the wormhole to) for like 30 to 60 seconds. After that, resize DCME back to normal. Notice where the spawn of the ship is: doesn't look too great. ;o Can you actually center it with the grid? :X

 

And I doubt we'll handle multiple layers . Waste of memory, Recode basically every function, ... nah

I wasn't implying it as a permanent feature, but almost like a plugin. Something you can remove very quickly with minimal hassle later on. Just the line tool as the only functional tool for this might do, afterall this is only for experimental testing (not for making maps/complete maps). You could make it a feature that can be disabled/enabled in Advanced tab only until experimental phases are over.

 

 

Does DCME use D3D or OpenGL? Is it possible to allow the user to choose between either? How about adding "Software mode" rendering? You know what would be cool - maybe when DCME is finished you could take the existing rendering base and make an experimental 3D Continuum. Ships could be sprites or something anyway. Basically a 3D tile would be a cube with the same tile texture on each face. Maybe a few Z-layers just to play around with it. Hahhaa. Did you implement any easter eggs in DCME so far?

[Witchie NL]

LC should have a personal !@#$%^&*le like "Inventor of the long posts", im getting tired of reading them

Well i like the idea what he said about 3D maps. Could be stored in (x, y, layer) indeed but since you (mostly) use a cube as map you will need 1024x1024x1024 tiles in total which takes a bit more memory then 1024x1024.

still.. i think it would be cool to do.

[Drake7707]

Does DCME use D3D or OpenGL? Is it possible to allow the user to choose between either? How about adding "Software mode" rendering? You know what would be cool - maybe when DCME is finished you could take the existing rendering base and make an experimental 3D Continuum. Ships could be sprites or something anyway. Basically a 3D tile would be a cube with the same tile texture on each face. Maybe a few Z-layers just to play around with it. Hahhaa. Did you implement any easter eggs in DCME so far?

 

DCME uses neither. There is no hardware acceleration involved, it draws with bitblt, one of the basic drawing api calls of windows. (that's why DCME should work on all windows, even if the gpu sucks badly)

And no, no eastereggs .... yet

[Samapico]

That "strange cleanup" you speak of is completly normal. And it is not a bug that it marks each 5x5 tile of a wormhole with '220'.

 

What happens is DCME loads the map, when it encounters 217, 219 or 220, it "completes special tiles". When completing special tiles, it actually marks them like this,

 

Let's take a wormhole...

__ 220 -22010 -22020 -22030 -22040
-22001 -22011 -22021 -22031 -22041
-22002 -22012 -22022 -22032 -22042
-22003 -22013 -22023 -22033 -22043
-22004 -22014 -22024 -22034 -22044

Whenever DCME encounters a negative tile ID, it knows there is a special object nearby. And it can extract its exact X and Y coordinate easily.

ObjectX Coordinate = X + ((map.getTile(X, Y) Mod 100) \ 10)
ObjectY Coordinate = Y + map.getTile(X, Y) Mod 10
Object Tile ID = map.getTile(X, Y) \ -100

 

Of course, displaying 6 digits numbers on a small tile wasn't visible, so I made it display the object tile ID (i.e. 220 instead of -22032).

 

DCME needs those negative coordinates so when it encounters them on the edge of the screen, it can still draw the partial special object. That's why when a map is loaded, it will 'complete' the special object by adding these negative tile id's.

Of course, these tile id's aren't saved in the .lvl afterwards.

 

I hope this clears up your mind on dcme special objects system.

 

I would play more if it weren't for the wormhole warping me in DCME.

Good point... I'll disable tile-warp if Tile Collision is unchecked...

[Samapico]

Yeah I know I should have just said that in the same post... bleh

I just wonder what happens if you save 2 different tiles at the same X, Y coordinate... i'm guessing the last one saved will be the last one loaded and will probably overwrite the other one on the tile grid...

Well if you were to save your *.lvl with the featuring of weird overlapping tiles, next time you load that *.lvl DCME will delete some of your "weird" stuff. It won't totally fix it, but it fixes some. Download messedup.lvl and try it in Continuum. Now open that in DCME. See any differences?

 

http://www.hlrse.net/Qwerty/dcme2_a.gif illustrates exactly the above. Also notice the weird DCME bug where it marks all the 5x5 tiles of each spacestation with its TileID - it's only supposed to be the top left corner, or atleast the first entire column of the whole column of space stations. Confirm the bug?

Actually, you can't 'save 2 tiles at the same X,Y' with DCME. It would require 'hacking' the savemap function and put multiple tiles with the same X / Y data in the lvl file. And as I said above, the filling of tile id's isnt a bug.

 

And special objects do have transparency now I think

Didn't they always have transparency? Or am I missing some bit of information I just never seemed to notice? I think they had transparency since continuum .37.

Woot, ... just confirmed: http://www.ssbase.com/revision.shtml (search 'transparency' on the page)

 

And no it's not a new finding, just by knowing how tiles are stored, things like these were possible... Only thing is no map editor allowed it...

Yup. I've seen this done before, but very very so little did I see in demonstration. Maybe a wormhole or two, or something and that's it. This was years ago. If you only came to Subspace a year or two ago, it was definately long before you came.If... but I came to Subspace almost 6 years ago... when you had to use some kind of crack to play subspace 1.34...

[L.C.]

Actually, you can't 'save 2 tiles at the same X,Y' with DCME. It would require 'hacking' the savemap function and put multiple tiles with the same X / Y data in the lvl file. And as I said above, the filling of tile id's isnt a bug.

But then why, in Continuum, does it show 9 spacestations and a wormhole? That's 10 objects. According to what you're saying, there should only be 9, no?

 

but I came to Subspace almost 6 years ago... when you had to use some kind of crack to play subspace 1.34...

So did I; 1998. ;o

 

Okai. That's all I have in say for now. I think I will remain silent for a while since I really do have nothing else to say. :\

[Samapico]

Actually, there are 8 space stations on that screenshot of yours... the tile with a 220 is nothing else but a wormhole. the space station graphic might be confusing a bit, but there really isnt any space station starting at that tile

[L.C.]

Ok I'll have to repeat the experiment again, but with a 2x2 spacestation grid and wormhole on the bottom right corner.

 

EDIT :: Eh. Screenshot shows a missing spacestation in 2nd row.

[Samapico]

Ok I'll have to repeat the experiment again, but with a 2x2 spacestation grid and wormhole on the bottom right corner.

 

EDIT :: Eh. Screenshot shows a missing spacestation in 2nd row.

 

 

wha... that will probably make a space station with gravity ô.o

cool...

[L.C.]

Yeah ok. I was wrong - can't "layer" tiles without "hacks."

 

It would require 'hacking' the savemap function and put multiple tiles with the same X / Y data in the lvl file.

Why not try it? Just allow it to have "duplicate" data, load it up in Continuum and see how Continuum reacts?

 

Hehe. I'm really quite interested to see how Continuum would react to a "duplicate" tile entry. Maybe it's possible...until we try it and find out?