Iran

[Yoink]

If the rest of the world has reached a level of education that considers the majority of the Middle East completely archaic and barbaric in its ways, is it truly worth saving?

[Aileron]

The point I was trying to make is that we aren't there to save the middle east. We are saving our own future.

[Yoink]

Perhaps the best decision is one that is unethical, and maybe that's a truth that people need to face. One of the nice things about living in Rome was that when you killed a barbarian, it was glorious.

[AstroProdigy]

A deep way to think, Yoink.

[Steigerwald]

i believe the truth is that we do not know the full details of the stuff that is happening. the amerian government has probably classified alot of material that would support the wars that are happening, as well as the wars that will happen.

[Dav]

To be honest i wonder how much of the issue is truly to do with "evil" and how much is political and media spin to make the western nation and its allies look "good" and the moral standpoint of the world.

 

With the nuclear debate I always find it amusing how the main nation to say who can and cannot have them (the US) is the only one to have offensively used such weapons.

[NBVegita]

Anyone else hear about the new Iran drama? They either need to do something, or stop pretending to slap Iran on the hand.

[SeVeR]

To whoever had a problem with me saying "The Truth", you're right. I just feel that there are alot of myths out there that need to be dispelled. There is however no evidence that those articles are lies. Certain things just need to be brought to the forefront:

 

1. There are two types of nuclear reactor and only one can produce the plutonium isotope needed for nuclear weaponry, Iran is building the other kind of reactor.

2. Iran has cooperated fully with the International Atomic Energy Agency.

3. America has produced a dishonest report in which it lies about Irans nuclear capability.

4. There is a huge Jewish population in Iran who are treated well and respected. This is down to the supreme leader ordering his people to respect Jews.

5. The distinction between Anti-Zionism and Anti-Semitism has been clouded by Zionists for the simple reason of painting all their foes as racists.

 

Our goal is Democracy and Modernization in the Middle East, not peace.

My goal is to let them run their own show in whichever way they want. If they want an Islamic dictatorship then let them have it. If they live under a dictatorship and want a democracy then let them fight for it. Who are we to step in with our righteous hand?

[Aileron]

1. Nice, that was tricky. That's true, except you left out one important fact. While all modern nuclear powers use Plutonium in their bombs, it is possible to construct a nuclear weapon out of Uranium. It would mean a smaller explosion, but would still be big enough to wipe out a city.

 

2. ...and the International Atomic Energy Agency says its likely they are building the bomb.

 

3. That's not an arguement. Anyone can simply ignore inconvenient evidence as "dishonest". Besides, in case you haven't noticed the CIA sucks...for the entire history of the agency they have been getting caught and messing up intel. Even if the report is innaccurate, it is likely a result of that stupidity.

 

4. A very small population has been given small freedoms. Meanwhile a large amount of money is going to Hamas and Hezbollah to kill Jews elseware.

 

5. I don't recall calling the Iranians racist. I recall accussing them of having the goal of trying to force the world under the rule of a new Caliphate. If I recall what the last Caliphate did, they did tolerate Jews and Christians as long as those Jews and Christians held no political power within their government.

 

Actually, your opponants on this issue don't generally give a crap about Israel. The Israelies are strong enough that they can take care of themselves. When I for one point out the terrorist groups Iran is funding, I do so not as a cry for defense of an ally, but merely to point out Iran's intention.

 

 

 

 

 

Their goal is to force the world under Islamic law. Their goal is to enforce a monarchy, granted there will probably be some kind of parliament, and I have no idea which family would be the ruling family as all the obvious family lines were cut by the Mongols. This goal is stated in their public addresses with a little reading between the lines. The proof that they are willing to act on that goal is their funding of foreign terrorist groups who are advancing that goal for them.

 

Granted, they are citing the "Golden Age" of Islam where scientific and economic progress was made. That situation would not be unliveable. But that was all because of Al Ma'mun, one man. Monarchy is fine when the king is a good man. The problem is that more often than not you get power hungry megalomaniacs and/or re!@#$%^&*ed people. Democracy was created to limit the sort of damage those people can do. Basically, the supporters of this Caliphate are !@#$%^&*uming that their choice of Caliph would be a good man and then pointing out that the world wouldn't need democracy under that situation...as statement that is true if it were only safe to assume a certain family line would produce exclusively good people.

 

 

Now, lets get real. Iran has no chance of actually taking over the world. However, what they can do is psyche themselves up on percieved victories, which they have done in say the Israeli ceasefire last summer. They can use those percieved victories to psyche themselves up, convince themselves that they are stronger than they are, and think that the will of Allah will make up for tactical defficiencies. (That's true, though I'd have to say God tends to help those who show true faith by not putting him to the test, and he hates tryants anyway.) After all in the Battle of the Zab, the Abbasid supporters fought their way out of roughly a 10:1 disadvantage after exagerration. Additionally while debate strengthens a true democracy, it doesn't work to well in a closet theocracy. Infact, if the Iranian government had as many protesters as there are protesting Bush, it would be a sign that the government was about to collapse. In their culture, dissent is a sign of weakness, and they have !@#$%^&*umed that dissent is a sign of weakness in our culture. Even though they can't, given their culture there is enough there for them to convince themselves that the would win in some take over the world scheme.

 

If they had a weapon as powerfull as an Uranium based atomic bomb, if they weren't convinced before they would be completely convinced at that point. They would certainly try to take over the world at that point. They would fail granted, but in doing so they would do a lot of damage and destroy atleast a half a dozen cities. That would probably mean several million deaths that could be prevented now if we simply stop them from building the bomb in the first place.

 

In short, they are loons and we don't want them having that kind of firepower.

[Dav]

Where the truth lies is very unclear on this issue.

 

What is clear is that negosiation is going nowhere and as ever the US will force its forign policy onto the UN to bring a resolution to the issue it is happy with. Granted that many western governments are supportive oif the US actions now but ive a feeling things will go downhill fast and we may wind up with yet another war in the reigon.

[Witchie NL]

i hope the world dies of a big asteriod that is hopefully heading straight at earth!

Get a life, you have absolutely no idea about the things that DO go verry well in this world.

Infact noone has. Everything that is good will be quickly forgotten, everything that isnt will stay with us forever.

 

But atm we are only destroying mankind with our own build weapons trying to be the best country and getting the most oil.

But we have no eye watching on the true threats of this planet (global changes-astroids-solarstorms).

Did you know there are 7 astroids crossing the earths orbit, each large enough to completely pulverise the earth, and just 2 maybe posible solutions are here to prevent them from hitting earth?

And we just know around 1% of the astroids in our solar system.

Edited February 27, 2007 by Witchie NL

[Aileron]

Dav, the truth is very clear...its just that SeVeR's sources have an agenda to push. And negotiation with Iran does have the potential to help...they aren't a lackey of the Muslim Brotherhood and therefore they aren't stupid.

 

You ppl watch too many movies. Asteroids are only threatening to large life-forms that cannot adapt to low food supply. Human beings, while requiring a large amount of food, are the most adaptable species ever to have walked Earth. We'd manage.

 

And even so there are asteroid watch agencies, but there's a zen at!@#$%^&*ude that should be applied here. If there's nothing we can do to stop an asteroid in advance, there's no point in looking for them.

 

As for climate change, we've already survived natural climate change.

 

 

WMDs are by far the most dangerous. Air pollution is also far more dangerous than natural disasters.

 

The animals, though not sentient, have already figured it out. Humans are much more dangerous than nature, even to ourselves.

[Dav]

Dav, the truth is very clear...its just that SeVeR's sources have an agenda to push. And negotiation with Iran does have the potential to help...they aren't a lackey of the Muslim Brotherhood and therefore they aren't stupid.

 

You ppl watch too many movies. Asteroids are only threatening to large life-forms that cannot adapt to low food supply. Human beings, while requiring a large amount of food, are the most adaptable species ever to have walked Earth. We'd manage.

 

And even so there are asteroid watch agencies, but there's a zen at!@#$%^&*ude that should be applied here. If there's nothing we can do to stop an asteroid in advance, there's no point in looking for them.

 

As for climate change, we've already survived natural climate change.

 

 

WMDs are by far the most dangerous. Air pollution is also far more dangerous than natural disasters.

 

The animals, though not sentient, have already figured it out. Humans are much more dangerous than nature, even to ourselves.

I understand there is an agenda to push there but i think the counter arguments made are guilty of the same thing.

 

With a debate this heated the truth often becomes somewhat distorted.

 

Also when i said negotiation are going nowhere i was referring to the current situation, i think that if things get going again negotiation might just work but some nations still seem a little eager to reach for their armies on issues like this.

[NBVegita]

Actually sever according to the latest IAEA report, Iran has not fully cooperated, they were asked to hault their enrichment, instead they have expanded, they have expanded the production of heavy water stations, which can be used to create weapon grade enrichments, and they have asked for more information on the plutonium enrichment that the IAEA has stumbled upon, for which Iran says they have no information on.

 

Now the details might be slightly off as I'm trying to remember the report I read a week ago, but that is the main idea of the report.

[Aileron]

Iran actually isn't a heated debate. Iraq is a heated debate but Iran really isn't. Everyone has the same opinion...don't do anything just yet but don't trust them either.

 

Truth is a fundimental concept. It is based upon reality, and thus is a fluid as reality is. However at the same time it is fixed upon what is real and cannot be distorted.

 

Dav, what you just posted is the "politically correct" way of saying "people lie when they start losing their arguements".

 

Though there is a problem in that the subject of this debate is what the intention of the Iranian collective unconcious is. We are trying to predict the future actions of an abstract en!@#$%^&*y. The only thing fixed is their past behavior.

 

That past behavior cannot be truthfully disagreed with...Iran has funded Hamas and Hezbollah. That is a fact, not an opinion. Iran has many large political organizations devoted to imposing Islamic law. Iran has been jerks to the IAEA, though admittingly its their sovereign right to rule their own country though.

[SeVeR]

NBV:

Actually sever according to the latest IAEA report, Iran has not fully cooperated, they were asked to hault their enrichment, instead they have expanded, they have expanded the production of heavy water stations, which can be used to create weapon grade enrichments

They have co-operated with the IAEA on every occasion by letting them view Iranian facilities. On the other hand Iran has not bowed to demands through the UN to suspend their enrichment process. These demands quite blatently come through US pressure within the UN security council. Remember a few months ago when i explained how nothing would happen if Iran rejected the deadline and carried on doing what they're doing? Nothing has happened, it was all posturing and threats; it's how the UN appeases the US. Look at it this way NBV, if Iran keeps letting the IAEA inspect their facilities then the UN will know the instant Iran decides to try and make weapons grade uranium. Currently their plant is configured as a civilian reactor and any change from that would take years to implement. They'd have to cut off the IAEA for a long time, something that would arouse suspicion.

 

Ail:

1. Nice, that was tricky. That's true, except you left out one important fact. While all modern nuclear powers use Plutonium in their bombs, it is possible to construct a nuclear weapon out of Uranium. It would mean a smaller explosion, but would still be big enough to wipe out a city.

I thought you needed a plutonium trigger, probably because all countries use this method. One thing i do know is that weapons grade uranium is purer than civilian reactor grade uranium, they'd still need to change their plant to accommodate this extra level of purity.

 

2. ...and the International Atomic Energy Agency says its likely they are building the bomb.

Now this is astonishing to me. Prove this please. All i know off is one source that says Iran is building a bomb. That source is the United States with the report branded "dishonest" by the IAEA.

 

3. That's not an arguement. Anyone can simply ignore inconvenient evidence as "dishonest". Besides, in case you haven't noticed the CIA sucks...for the entire history of the agency they have been getting caught and messing up intel. Even if the report is innaccurate, it is likely a result of that stupidity.

Simple fact is Bush hired Hoekstra to lie about Iran's nuclear ability for the purpose of providing reason to act on that lie. The reason this is so distressing is because its happened before, just 5 years back, in Iraq. I commend the IAEA for coming out and saying America is full of !@#$%^&*. You say the CIA sucks, but they're meant to suck, they're hired to suck, they're hired to lie to provide justification for Bush.

 

4. A very small population has been given small freedoms. Meanwhile a large amount of money is going to Hamas and Hezbollah to kill Jews elseware.

Define "small freedoms"? I don't see any restriction of freedom for Jews. As for paying Hezbollah and Hamas to kill Jews, i think you mean Zionists... otherwise they wouldn't have far to travel from Iran would they!?!

 

5. I don't recall calling the Iranians racist. I recall accussing them of having the goal of trying to force the world under the rule of a new Caliphate. If I recall what the last Caliphate did, they did tolerate Jews and Christians as long as those Jews and Christians held no political power within their government.

The Jews have a seat in parliament and based on their population thats quite representative. They are being called racist by people all over the world (even if you're not), i am even being called racist, people criticising Israel are being called racist. It's no coincidence that criticism of this political en!@#$%^&*y called Zionism is being confused with racism. What better way to instill hate in your enemies than to fit them with the racist label.

 

Their goal is to force the world under Islamic law. ... goal is their funding of foreign terrorist groups who are advancing that goal for them.

There's no proof that they want to rule the world, and citing the operation of terrorist groups acting against one country, that they have every reason to hate, is not going to prove it either. Edited March 1, 2007 by SeVeR

[NBVegita]

The IAEA has also asked to impliment remote monitoring in the reactors which Iran has refused, and they were given the IAEA's reasoning for it almost a month ago and still have not recieved a reply. And what about the heavy water plants and the plutonium?

 

And a direct quote from the report states "Iran has not agreed to any of the required transparency measures, which are essential for the

clarification of certain aspects of the scope and nature of its nuclear programme.In addition to the

measures mentioned above, these include discussions about information provided to the Agency

concerning alleged studies related to the so-called Green Salt Project concerning the conversion of

uranium dioxide into UF4 (known as “green salt”), to high explosives testing and to the design of a

missile re-entry vehicle (GOV/2006/64, para. 19)"

 

That doesn't sound like full cooperation if you ask me.

[Aileron]

SeVeR, this forum has a new IproBattle system. Did you notice?

 

You have been smited by the forum gods for your idiotic opinion.

 

 

!@#$%^&* that was satisfying.

[SeVeR]

Thankyou for your in-depth reply to my points Aileron. I'm sure my idiotic opinion is only idiotic in the eyes of a self-righteous moderator with the power to be an !@#$%^&*.

 

NBV where did you get that report from? If i saw it i might change my mind on the issue.

[NBVegita]

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2007/images/02/22/iran_iaea2007.pdf

 

That is the full 6 page report in pdf form.

[jacob hunter!]

i hope the world dies of a big asteriod that is hopefully heading straight at earth!

Get a life, you have absolutely no idea about the things that DO go verry well in this world.

Infact noone has. Everything that is good will be quickly forgotten, everything that isnt will stay with us forever.

 

But atm we are only destroying mankind with our own build weapons trying to be the best country and getting the most oil.

But we have no eye watching on the true threats of this planet (global changes-astroids-solarstorms).

Did you know there are 7 astroids crossing the earths orbit, each large enough to completely pulverise the earth, and just 2 maybe posible solutions are here to prevent them from hitting earth?

And we just know around 1% of the astroids in our solar system.

 

LOL humans in general are the reason this planet is dieing.

We are big !@#$%^&*ing parasites and we always want more of everything.....

I know I do everytime I see a game at the store.

But I really don't want to make a big !@#$%^&*ing pointless debate with you so lets just keep this in one paragraph posts.

[Aileron]

Way to take a joke seriously SeVeR.

[SeVeR]

Aileron: We disagree alot, and as a result you calling my opinion idiotic seems like a little more than a joke.

 

NBV: Thankyou very much for providing me with that source of information. A very interesting report that really lays down all the issues.

 

Regarding co-operation:

 

"26. Pursuant to its NPT Safeguards Agreement, Iran has been providing the Agency with access to

declared nuclear material and facilities, and has provided the required nuclear material accountancy

reports in connection with such material and facilities."

 

They have also been allowing the IAEA to inspect their facilities on a regular (apparently monthly) basis. This and the accurate account of uranium seems to be co-operation.

 

Where i can see you have an issue is with the remote monitoring proposal not being accepted right away. I have two points to make about this from reading that report.

1. This was proposed very recently and has not been rejected, only delayed based on the second point.

2. Iran has every right to question the legality and authority of putting remote monitoring equipment in their facilities.

[Aileron]

I just remember about a year back some IAEA guy saying before the UN that Iran can't be trusted. Seems like they cleaned up their act in the meantime.

 

But, as the report also clearly states, this string of cooperation is following a long history of keeping the IAEA in the dark.

[NBVegita]

The report can be interperated in many ways. The was I see it is that Iran is very smoothly keeping the IAEA in on the bare minimum they need, while not answering many important questions, key ones about plutonium, the green salt project and contaminated uranium.

 

As for the remote monitoring, the IAEA's reasonings were sent on Feb. 6th. If you have nothing to hide why would you be afraid of remote monitoring? I mean on a small scale, back when I was in high school we had to go through metal detectors every day to get into school. And they randomly "wanded" (ran the small portable one over every inch of your body and checked you bag), but roughly around every 3rd student. The only students who really complained about it were the ones who wanted to bring weapons to school. I looked at it as I have nothing to hide, so what's the big deal?

 

I know they feel like they're being picked on, but it's been found that Iran has given money and weapons to the "rebels" in Iraq to help keep the war going. Now the two major allied forces are the US and the British. Also two high standing members on the U.N. Now of course the US and the Brits are going to want every precation in place that they can. And if Iran were smart, and had nothing to hide, they would let all of the precautions be taken. Because if they had nothing to hide, and in a few months the IAEA was like "Yep they're definately not going for weapons" it makes, specially the U.S., look extremely dumb. The way things are going now, the further they go along with resisted cooperation, the worse Iran looks on a world scale. At least China and Russia have to much vested in their economy for them to go against Iran. In fact I think if they found targeted nuclear missile set for the US, Russia and China would still back Iran lol

 

The way I look at it, if Iran really has nothing to hide, they could hault their enrichment for a matter of months, because if they let all everything be 100% transparent to the IAEA it would take at most a couple of months before they would be cleared, and then once cleared they wouldn't have to worry about more problems in the future. But as it is, where they are defying requests from the IAEA, not cooperating with some of what they ask for, and are trying to keep them in the dark on some areas, it shows, to me at least, that they have something to hide.

Edited March 3, 2007 by NBVegita