SeVeR Posted October 31, 2006 Report Posted October 31, 2006 Yes, unless you tell me your reasons why they shouldn't be let in.
Yoink Posted November 1, 2006 Report Posted November 1, 2006 No - roast beef is a much more profitable product.
Aileron Posted November 3, 2006 Report Posted November 3, 2006 Well, I said "Yes" being a citizen on the United States. The reasons why a European might not want Turkey in the EU are as follows: 1) Turkey's "European" status in terms of geography is questionable. One can justify both letting the country in and not letting it in, so it comes down to other reasons. 2) Turkey doesn't bring in as much wealth per capita as most current EU members. Those EU members that bring in less than Turkey are clearly in Europe geographically. They are poor, but don't fall under reason #1. 3) Turkey is also a Middle Eastern country. If Turkey joined the EU, than the EU would have political relevance to the Middle East, which would drag the EU into day to day Middle Eastern politics. For instance, the current war in Iraq would suddenly become very important to the EU, because Iraq has Kurds, Turkey has Kurds, and if Turkey was part of the EU the fate of the Kurds would be important to the EU. 4) The EU has free border agreements, meaning people can p!@#$%^&* freely from any EU nation to any other EU nation. If Turkey was in the EU, the difficulty for an Islamic Terrorist to infiltrate any EU nation would be at most the difficulty for an Islamic Terrorist to infiltrate Turkey, which would mean a lot less cultural understanding is necessary from the infiltrator's part. As a US citizen, reason #2 means down to better distribution of wealth, and reason #3 would mean more European support for my country in the Middle East.
AstroProdigy Posted November 4, 2006 Author Report Posted November 4, 2006 No because 1) Turkey has an oppressive nature towards its minorities especially the Kurds and it continues to oppress them and occupy a people that have no place being divided among various middle eastern nations. 2) Turkey continues to occupy the northern part of an EU member, Cyprus, which they've acted clearly illegally against the Geneva Convention in forcing out the rightful inhabitants and then transferring some of its own population there to make favorable demographics for occupation. 3) Turkey has a GDP per capita well below even the poorest current members of the European Union with a high population that would take down the wealth of the EU significantly. 4) Turkey has to worry about an Islamic revival and as we know the current Islamic revivals are very contradictory to everything the EU stands for. 5) Turkey is honestly not culturally European in any way and considering they're much more problematic than any other EU member when they joined I don't see how the EU can allow Turkey in and not be called hypocrits.
JoWie Posted November 4, 2006 Report Posted November 4, 2006 no, there are enough turkish here. Open borders would result in alot of migration
Aileron Posted November 4, 2006 Report Posted November 4, 2006 Well, the Turks coming in to Europe are moving in legally. If they are going in legally and !@#$%^&*imhilating they benefit the economy.
AstroProdigy Posted November 5, 2006 Author Report Posted November 5, 2006 Do you see Muslim minorities in European countries !@#$%^&*imilating? No? All it does is create a bigger disenfranchised minority and a large country supporting them in the European Union and there's a big mess right there.
Drake7707 Posted November 5, 2006 Report Posted November 5, 2006 no because the turkey laws don't stroke/are way to different with the common EU country laws.
AstroProdigy Posted November 5, 2006 Author Report Posted November 5, 2006 Russia would be more justifiably allowed in the EU and they don't even have any prospect of joining in the near future. Why should Turkey get things so easy? As a beacon to the Muslim world? More likely Turkey would be the downfall of the EU.
Yoink Posted November 6, 2006 Report Posted November 6, 2006 I think they should be allowed in, on a couple of bases. Firstly, let me make the analogy of a mutual fund. Some aspects go down, some go up, but in general people profit decently off of a mutual fund. Having widespread economies (geographically and how well the economy itself is doing) will probably only benefit the EU. And if they do join the EU, it could serve as a gateway for a more, "western" culture - so that we're not so consumed by dealing with what we see as archaic. I know this is a !@#$%^&*ty perspective but the idea that some people can be ages beyond others creates some rather complex complications. If their lifestyle is inefficient and their people choose to move towards, say a post-modern society, then so be it. Though I'd like to point out that I am completely against forcing this upon them.
AstroProdigy Posted November 6, 2006 Author Report Posted November 6, 2006 You're !@#$%^&*uming Turkey can stay stable for it to benefit the EU economically. What if the military deposes the President again? What if there's a Muslim revival that takes over the country? Not only that but there are very real and very important problems of Turkey's forced secularization and forced ethnic !@#$%^&*imilation and the fact that they continue to occupy the northern part of an EU member that they refuse to recognize. That sets an example that the EU will support only the most powerful countries and smaller countries don't matter. Not only that, but they continue to occupy a large part of Kurdistan and oppress it's people when there's no legitimate reason that Turkey should legally occupy the area.
Yoink Posted November 6, 2006 Report Posted November 6, 2006 Perhaps they (the EU) are attempting to gain some leverage in arguing against the oppression and other "non-ideal" actions Turkey carries out, in such a manner so that they can argue against them.
Aileron Posted November 6, 2006 Report Posted November 6, 2006 Well, keep in mind that "Should Turkey be allowed into the EU?" and "Should the EU admit Turkey?" are two different questions. The former is asking what's best for all parties, wheras the latter is what's best for the EU. Clearly letting Turkey in the EU is what's best for everyone.
AstroProdigy Posted November 7, 2006 Author Report Posted November 7, 2006 Clearly? Did you not look at the list of reasons for not letting Turkey into the EU? If they solved those problems then sure let them into the EU, but otherwise letting Turkey is bad for the stability of the EU. Do you want the EU to turn the Kurds into the newest group of terrorists that hates the West and calls for our destruction and for Cyprus to be betrayed by the EU because it's not as economically powerful? Sounds to me that this would permanently spoil the image of the EU.
talion Posted November 8, 2006 Report Posted November 8, 2006 I have to say yes, and I have to say I'm as surprised as you are I'd say that. Here's what I realized as I read all those posts before mine: Western society is supposedly based on tolerance and acceptance and all that tried old stuff we all know and love. Let's not discuss that. Yet, how do we treat minorities in our midsts? Muslims, especially post 9-11? Not well. Don't lose sight of the fact that if the west wants to eventually win over the muslim world, there needs to be a demonstrable bridge between the two cultures. Instanbul/Byzantium/Constantinople has always been that area where the two cultures meet, it's an important region of the world. Let Turkey into the EU. Bring them around. It won't be easy. But I think the rewards if done right coudl be staggering. does this make sense to anyone else?
Aileron Posted November 8, 2006 Report Posted November 8, 2006 Astro, by "everyone" I mean the sum total of the desires Europe, Turkey, the US, Middle Easterns, Africans, Asians, Islamic terrorists, and the International Society of Clowns. Only one of those groups would actually be hurt if Turkey was admitted in the EU. Ofcourse, the one group hurt would be Europeans, and its their decision. In an idealistic world where everyone did everything based upon a strictly nuetral position, should Turkey be allowed in the EU? Yes Should Europeans from a European perspective allow Turkey into the EU given that the EU's mission statement involves doing what is best for Europeans? No
AstroProdigy Posted November 9, 2006 Author Report Posted November 9, 2006 talion:European society is based on tolerance and acceptance of PEOPLE. It's not based on appeasal of larger groups pushing around smaller groups especially when one of those groups is a part of the EU. Istanbul is not a place where cultures meet. It's a place that's been taken over by various different groups and had various religions. It used to be vastly dominated by Eastern Orthodox Christians. Noew the vast majority of people in Istanbul are Muslim Turks. It's not a melting pot any more than most large European cities. It's maybe a semi important region of the world considering it's location being the only way through the Black Sea and it has a high population. Otherwise all the "melting pot" nature of the city was erased when it's minorities were either forced out or massacred the way Anatolian Greeks, Armenians, and !@#$%^&*yrians were. The funny thing is that the government still denies it. They even continue to put pressure on what's left of Armenia. What do they want to finish the job now? There are so many things terribly wrong with Turkey joining the EU and unless they solve these problems allowing them in would be a betrayal to European ideals. The West doesn't want to defeat the Muslim World. They want the Muslim World to stop !@#$%^&*ting out psycho extremists like Osama bin Laden. When Muslims clearly repress Christians, Christians don't revert to terrorism. There seems to be this extreme double standard that when Christians "oppress" Muslims by Muslims being poorer than the group that dominates the country that this is very terrible and justifies m!@#$%^&* killings of civilians, but when Muslims do much worse then we must appease them and stick our heads in the sand. If Turkey want's to be considered European it needs to accept that it's going to have to live up to European standards. Also, a poorer Muslim minority sound similar to a poorer African American minority in the US? You see them bombing trains? Aileron:What matters is what's good for Europe. The European Union was created to protect the interests of the European Union not the interests of the rest of the world. Also how does Turkey's admission to the European Union help the world exactly?
Aileron Posted November 9, 2006 Report Posted November 9, 2006 Well, it helps Turkey because they get free perks, its helps the US because it would drag Europe into wars that we would otherwise have to fight ourselves, it helps Asians because they would'nt have to compete with as powerfull of an economic compe!@#$%^&*ion from Europe, it helps Islamic Terrorists because it would make their goal of attacking "infidels" in Europe a lot easier and it would help clowns out because it would offer a good punch line. I'm just being a literary !@#$%^&* and pointing out that the way you wrote the question technically didn't specify who was making the decision, making it a call from someone under "veil of ignorance". (In which somehow the decider didn't know which party he or she was a member of.) Similarly I could ask "Should half of Bill Gate's money be given to me?", which is a different question than "Should Bill Gates give me half his money?". The answer to the first question is "yes" and to the second one "no". The first question doesn't specify point of view of the decider, so the decider is in the theorhetical position of having a 50% chance of being me and a 50% chance of being Bill Gates, making the correct answer "yes" because of the Law of Diminishing Returns. However, the second question states the decider's position to be that of Bill Gates and thus to correct answer is "no".
AstroProdigy Posted November 10, 2006 Author Report Posted November 10, 2006 The US does NOT want Europe to be dragged into a war against Kurds. The only thing that matters, though, is how it affects Europe and maybe the US.
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