Bush's latest speech:

[AstroProdigy]

I'd expect someone like James Witt, but I guess it's too much to expect Bush to get passed cronyism and put a qualified director of FEMA like Clinton did. But hey let's blame the incompetence with Katrina on Clinton like they're blaming 9/11 on him right before elections.

 

Most people weren't petty criminals. That's enough reason to not be incompetent isn't it? I guess not.

[NBVegita]

If you've researched anything James Witt was also a good friend of President Clinton when he was appointed. All politics = cronyism. Mike Brown lied about his resume, and had all of the official do!@#$%^&*ents to back it up. Even had all of the official published do!@#$%^&*ents to back it up. They discussed matters with his former bosses and they are quoted to say "no better man for the job". After much research into the issue, and conducting many personal interviews it was found that much of his information was altered to decieve.

 

Yes James Witt was a good FEMA director, but he was one of Clintons cabinet members, and friend. It's only natural that he would be removed from his position. Don't just blame bush, almost every political position in history has done, and will do the same. DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS ALIKE! It just so happens that Clintons friend worked out better than Bush's.

 

And when did I ever try to blame this on clinton? I haven't brought up him or his administration...so wtf are you even talking about?

 

Most people weren't petty criminals. That's enough reason to not be incompetent isn't it? I guess not.

 

I have no idea what you mean by that statement. I've already said a large amount were not criminals. Are you trying to state the the government was deliberatly "incompetant" due to the fact that they thought people were criminals?

 

And I'm still waiting on hearing what "real response" took 7 days to show up.

[NBVegita]

Also what greased is talking about is that if you are living in that area, you are well aware of the consequences and that a huge natural disaster could happen, and could happen to you. You realize that you get your home at a discounted price, largely discounted if you live in a natural disaster zone. So you get to save lots of money on your house, but you sure as !@#$%^&* know that house might dissapear someday. Anybody who moves into an area like that as says they had no clue this could happen is just plain naive.

 

And as it has been said by many many people, noone was prepared for what happened. Yes those senarios may have been played out on paper, but having someone write a report about having a levy break and a catastrophic disaster, and actually experiencing one, are two totally different things. Looking back many things could have been done differently, but things could have been a lot worse too.

[AstroProdigy]

Some people don't have millions to buy in the safest places. I guess they should apologize for being poor. If things were worse it'd be said that Bush purposely left them there to die. Other countries reacted faster to our problem than we did. That's a disgrace.

[NBVegita]

cite me facts.

 

And !@#$%^&* just because you're poor doesn't mean you have to live in a disaster zone. Noone ever said that. But they warn you when you purchase a home in a natural disaster zone. Its your choice to buy the home or not. I live in central NY, and you can buy a home here for a !@#$%^&* of a lot less than a lot of those people bought their homes for. They just see the fact that they could get a house that would go for $300,000 anywhere else, for $180,000, and their eyes light right up. Those houses aren't dirt cheap either.

[SeVeR]

And !@#$%^&* just because you're poor doesn't mean you have to live in a disaster zone. Noone ever said that. But they warn you when you purchase a home in a natural disaster zone. Its your choice to buy the home or not.

Properties within a disaster zone are undoubtebly cheaper on average than ones which are not. The poor don't have a choice.

[AstroProdigy]

If you're poor you have to live wherever you can afford which leaves you a lot less options. Many of these people have been in New Orleans for generations. They can't afford to up and buy a house somewhere else now. It's generally not about greed. Sorry I'm too lazy to find sources for poor people in New Orleans if you honestly believe they're not there then there's nothing to say. Other countries reacting faster than us in our own disaster is also a well known fact. I don't need to cite every little thing.

[NBVegita]

Just cite me one source that canada was there before aug 29th which is the date FEMA and DHS arrived, or cite me a fact that canada was there before the 31st when the rest of the National Guard arrived. !@#$%^&* even cite something that shows they were there before sept 3rd when the government had already evacuated the super dome right in NO. When you make a broad statement like "Other countries reacting faster than us in our own disaster is also a well known fact." but cannot produce evidence, it is not a fact.

 

Also if you can afford to purchase a home anywhere, you can afford to rent one somewhere else. You sit there and act like these people had no choice but to live there. If they have been in NO for generations and didn't want to leave, thats their choice. Not something they are forced into.

 

According to the National !@#$%^&*ociation of realtors, in just a comparison of metropolitan areas, there are hundreds of cities, not a couple, hundreds of cities where the average sales price of single family homes is cheaper than it is in NO. If you would like I can cite these hundreds of cities. Some of these are quite near NO and out of the disaster zone, yet incredibly cheaper. Some of these might be a bit further. Using money as an issue for being forced to live in NO is not a question, because if you can afford a house there, you can afford a house many other places.

 

The statistics I'm using are for 2005, they have the statistics for 2006, where the average selling price went up to $176,500 from 159,200 in 2005, but due to the hurricane factors, and the fact that they are waiting on the closeout of the 06 market, I did not want anyone to say that was effecting my data in any way.

 

So even after the hurricane its cheaper to live a lot of other places than NO.

[AstroProdigy]

Here's a timeline of the federal government's response:

http://thinkprogress.org/katrina-timeline

 

Canada's response:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_resp...rricane_Katrina

 

Sorry I guess the response of a different country that's way up north and much less capable to respond to our disaster was on par with our own reaction. Maybe if they knew the US federal government was gonna take their goddam time they'd have responded sooner.

 

The people in the Superdome could have been evacuated any day had there been a real response from the start. I guess spinning the story was more of a priority.

 

Not everyone is educated and knows where to look. Statistics are nice, but if people are poor and uneducated they don't know the statistics. They should apologize for that too right?

[NBVegita]

Why do poor people need to know the statistics about states and homes? You go to any real estate website, and you can get quotes on any area, anywhere. If you have the money to buy a house, you are not poor. Case in point. If you have the resources to finance for over $100,000, you can look on the internet...or better yet call one of the 1 billion agents around. Ignorance isn't an answer either. I'm not saying that it's "tough luck" on them, but they can't turn around and say "well !@#$%^&* I never expected anything like this could happen..." It's noone fault, and they should get the appropriate funding to help assist them. I just don't want them to sit there and act like they had no clue this could happen.

 

And did you not read what was actually said? On sept 2, Canada, after talking with FEMA committed to helping the United States, under the coordination of the UNITED STATES. The ships left harbor on Sept 6th, and showed up a few days late because they were delayed by weather. Every effort was first approved by our government, and then deployed by our government, and coordinated by our government. Canada gave us much needed support, but it was all coordinated by our government. And as for on par are you really that naive? They did not have their task force code name "operation UNISON" even leave canada until sept 6th. They didn't even declare that they would send help until the 2nd. As stated, by the 3rd we had the superdome cleared WITH NO CANADIAN SUPPORT! If we had waited for Canada to come help the superdome might have been cleared by the 15th!

 

As for the superdome, there were 20,000 people in the superdome. David Copperfield? Yes because in a catastrophic disaster zone, everyone knows that its common practice to make 20,000 people dissapear anytime they want. The government just didn't feel like waving their wand until sept 3rd. Shame on them. They might get their magic powers taken away by that little bunny who jumps out of the hat. It was a more pressing matter to pull people off of rooftops and out of flooded homes, than to pull them out of the superdome. And it was the governors fault, not the presidents that they had inadequate supplies. "The mayor of New Orleans had, in fact, stated that as a "refuge of last resort," only limited food, water, and supplies would be provided. Residents who evacuated to the Superdome were warned to bring their own supplies." straight from wikipedia.

 

"All aircraft were returning back towards the Gulf of Mexico by the afternoon of August 29. Air crews, many who lost their homes during the hurricane, began a round-the-clock rescue effort in New Orleans, and along the Mississippi and Alabama coastlines." Also from wikipedia. Being the katrina hit on the morning of the 29th, not too bad if you ask me. Stop acting like FEMA wasn't there/did nothing, DHS wasn't there/did nothing, or that the National Guard wasn't there/did nothing.

 

Are you so pressed to detest our president and federal government that you don't even read the articles you post?

[AstroProdigy]

Real estate website? You'd need a computer and an internet connection and even then you'd still need to know to look. If your great granparents had a house that was passed down to your grandparents and your parents and then to you then you have not bought a house. Case and point: many if not most of the poor people in New Orleans were already born there. I guess they should apologize for not expecting the levees to break or trusting the government would save them quickly if they were in trouble right?

 

The government felt it more important to focus on how they'd spin things than actually helping poor people who wouldn't vote for them anyway. It's funny that you say FEMA was helping even though it still took them way too long to get things done. Our capacity to clear a disaster area of people is very high. That's why leaving people there for days with no food or water. It takes humans a few days without water before they die. As for the elderly they'll die even faster. The rich were ok though because they were educated and had an easy ability to leave. They're the ones who matter because they voted for "God's party" right?

 

Ummm no their first mission to help was not the 6th as clearly stated by the article. As you can see from the timeline of our own response it's riddled with incompetence and Bush "cutting his losses". That's what mattered the most to him.

[NBVegita]

"The federal government announced it was deploying a task force comprising three warships—HMCS Athabaskan, HMCS Toronto and HMCS Ville de Québec—along with the Coast Guard vessel CCGS Sir William Alexander and three Sea King helicopters and one BO-105 helicopter to the area."

 

"The task force was organized under the name "Operation UNISON" and involved over 1,000 personnel from the Canadian Forces and Canadian Coast Guard who were placed under the operational command of their American counterparts who were coordinating relief operations."

 

"On September 6 the Operation UNISON task force of navy and coast guard ships departed Halifax Harbour for the U.S. Gulf Coast."

 

Straight from your own article. Just because they announced on Sept 2. that they were going to deploy a task force does not mean it was actually deployed on the 2nd. As you clearly see their task force was not deployed until the 6th. They sent helicopters to the new england area, and help coordinate the sending of supplies, but I guess in the way you put it, "the real response", came sept 6th. And thats only when it left harbor.

 

"The naval ships arrived at Pensacola, Florida several days later, having been delayed by further tropical storm activity off the east coast of Florida. The coast guard ship arrived several days later, due to its slower cruising speed."

 

As for the rich being ok...DUH! They have the money to get out ok. They didn't rely on Federal help! They bought a ticket, or did whatever they could afford to get out of town. So you blame the government for the fact that the people with money could afford to leave?

 

As for the poor people in NO, if you'll note that I have only been talking about the people who as quoted from my last post "If you have the money to buy a house, you are not poor." And poverty is a poor excuse for anything in this country. With the way our country is set up anyone, and I mean anyone can jump out of poverty. I think welfare is the worst program in the entire country. Is it the tax payers fault that you did not want to get an education, or pick up a trade, or !@#$%^&* even work full time at mcdonalds? So instead we can reward you for having no motivation by giving you the money that we work hard for? College isn't for everyone. But there are tradeschools in every city where you can pick up training on anything from carpentry and electrical work, to basic construction training. But you see that takes work, and why work when the government will cut you that check every week? I have no respect for the "poor people" of this country. In this country you choose to be poor. You cannot choose what you are born into, but you can sure as !@#$%^&* choose what you become.

 

And as for the superdome prior to katrina hitting, the national guard brought in enough food and water to support 15000 people for 3 days. They didn't acheive 20,000 until into sept. By the 3rd they were all cleared out. Yes supplies went low, but they did not run out of supplies. And the human body can survive 3-4 days without water, and roughly a week give or take with no food. As stated before, rescuing people from rooftops and the like who had no food or water was a bigger issue then rescuing those in the superdome with at least a limited supply of food and water. And any neglegence in the superdome with their care was based off of yet again, the govenor who it isspecifically stated: "The mayor of New Orleans had, in fact, stated that as a "refuge of last resort," only limited food, water, and supplies would be provided. Residents who evacuated to the Superdome were warned to bring their own supplies."

 

I'm not saying what happened to these people wasn't a travesty. And as stated before I think they should get the proper compensation. But to sit back and act like our government wasn't there and did nothing to help these people is just flatly wrong. And as stated before I don't support that their response could have been better, but I contend that it could have been much worse too.

[AstroProdigy]

"Due to security and logistics issues in the disaster area surrounding New Orleans, the team started operations on September 3, saving 30 people that day. They returned to Vancouver on September 6, reportedly saving over 110 people during their deployment. It has also accepted some evacuees to stay in Canada."

 

I don't know how you missed that. The fact that we couldn't handle it on our own in an efficient manor even though we have tremendous resources is the humiliation America endured to the rest of the world.

 

That's the thing about your argument. It doesn't reflect the reality of all those people who have been there for generations. I wasn't born with money so trust me it's really a !@#$%^&* to do anything meaningful with your life when you don't have loads of money for it. I can see how the vast majority of people born poor stay poor because they grow up thinking they can't accomplish anything and the federal government sure as !@#$%^&* doesn't give them a different opinion. Thank god I live in New York where they have cheap state colleges and give you financial aid when you need it and that I had good parents who pushed me to go to college because if I came from a broken home I'm sure I would end up working at McDonalds. So please get off your high Conservative loving horse and realize the reality of why there are poor people in America. This country has the ideal that anyone can move up from poverty, but the reality is very different. Thank god Democrats still have some influence because if Republicans were running the whole show I'd be working at McDonalds with no future.

 

That's why I'm a Democrat because the Republican Party is a fuse of greedy amoral economic policy as well as self righteous social policy that promotes ignorance and seems to ignore the very glaring contradiction that supporting the poor is a major part of being a Christian and Republican economic policy is wholly anti Christian. That's also why I find it hilarious that Republicans claim to be the party of God when their major policy is anti God. I guess keeping Gays from marrying is more important to God than the suffering of the poor right?

[NBVegita]

I come from a low middle class family, where for much of my growing up my parents didn't have 2 god !@#$%^&* nickels to rub together. My mother didn't work, my father was laid off when I was 5, and for 3 years worked 3 almost minimum wage jobs until he could get the job he currently has, and we barely made enough money to live. By the time I was 20 my father finally made it to grossing 50k a year, because he works 10 hour shifts, 6 days a week, and graveyard shifts. I moved out of my parents house when I was 18, and put myself through college by working full time. My parents haven't given me a cent, besides food while I lived at home since I was 16 and could get a job. By working hard in school, which anyone can do, and working hard in life, I was on an academic scholarship to Syracuse University for being 9th in my class and recieving a 1320 on my SAT's. I started out at 18 years old with nothing, and nothing to fall back on. I worked hard and by 20 was working as an IT tech for a good company making 40+k a year. I lived alone in my apartment, and had a brand new car, bought with 11 miles on it from a dealership. No one has handed me !@#$%^&* in my entire life. The total state and federal aid I recieved each year was $341 dollars to go to SU. Self righteous? I've been where these people are. I decided to not be poor. I saw the mistakes my family made and refused to make my children live the way I was forced to live. Anyone can make that decision, but its just easier to stay poor and have the government cut you that check.

 

Couldn't handle it? First off if you are even say moving into a house, and one of your friends is like "hey man, you need some help?" are you going to say no just because you want to make the point that you can move in yourself? Cmon thats just a dumb statement. Your country is in a natural catastrophe, and a neighboring country offers to help and you're to tell them no? WTF.

 

And they saved 110 people in 3 days...and you criticize our government for not saving 20,000 in one? I'm grateful for all of their help, even if they saved just 1 person.

 

And also that article has been adjusted since I posted as the "The federal government announced it was deploying a task force comprising three warships—HMCS Athabaskan, HMCS Toronto and HMCS Ville de Québec—along with the Coast Guard vessel CCGS Sir William Alexander and three Sea King helicopters and one BO-105 helicopter to the area." quote was taken out of the first paragraph where it is now further down the page. Otherwise I would not have posted about that.

 

There is money out there if you work hard for it. Nothing should be just given to anyone in this world. If you want something, you work and fight for it. There should be no other way. And if you want to talk about no choices look at some of these other countries where people really have no choice but to stay poor. I do, and I came from nothing and am still thankful that because of the country that I live in I am able to achieve much more than my parents ever did. Once me and my fiance move in together we will gross over 100k a year, and we both come from the same households where her dad finally grosses what mine does, and they work at the same place. We will be making much more than both of our families put together. This is what the wonderful US of A can do for you, if you are willing to work for it. But you're right, if you expect something handed to you, it won't happen, and I hope it never will.

[AstroProdigy]

It's not that Canada offered to help. It's that we needed help even with our mamouth resources and ability to clear the area easily. Sorry if I don't expect a foreign and much smaller nation populationwise to do our job for us, but I foolishly expected a quick response to save our own citizens. I guess that's too much to expect.

 

What about the rich that are born rich and get the best education because of their money and then they stay rich? You think that's not handed to them? You would agree that your parents tried to provide the environment for you to succeed right? Now imagine living in a broken home where you need to work to support siblings and there's no push to succeed. That's why it's important for the government to help. They don't need to simply cut you a check. How about they pay for your college education? Why do we need the best schools to be the most expensive and the ones that accept you if your parent is an alumni? Everyone knows a high school education doesn't mean diddly squat these days so why not move to make college free? I mean if the poor are expected to move out of poverty on their own then why don't we give them at least a more fair opportunity to do so? Oh yeah cutting taxes for the rich is more important of course.

[NBVegita]

I never mentioned anything about taxes for the rich or poor. Even college education means nothing nowadays because everyone has it. Its like what high school used to be. You need it, but its nothing special. I know its difficult, believe me I know its difficult if you come from nothing. As for my home, I spent most of my time grounded for things I didn't do, all me and my father did was argue, in fact for the last 6 months I was living there and the next year and a half I was out of my house, me and my father didn't speak with each other.

 

No its not fair if you get into a college based on who you know, but its also not their fault that their parents worked hard, or some ancestor did and now they have the money to pay for college. Something should be done about the first, but nothing can be done about the latter, I mean are you supposed to turn people away because their family makes a lot of money?

 

I hate that rich people have their lives handed to them and look down on those who had to fight, but you can't have the government prevent them from going to college. And I honestly want to work hard enough in my life to make sure my children don't have to. I mean isn't that what every parent should want? It's not anyone else fault that my parents both dropped out of college. I know its not my fault, but I don't expect anyone to compensate me for that either.

[AstroProdigy]

College education should be made free for the poor. This happens to some extent in some states, but a national standard would be better. Think back to when you were a kid. That's when your sense of self get's built up. Now imagine having to work from a young age to support your siblings and not having good values about education instilled in you. Every parent want's their kids to live good lives, but when it get's to the point where the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer and where hard working kids never had a chance to compete against lazy self righteous rich kids then our government supporting it is fundamentally wrong.

[NBVegita]

I'm proof that a hard working kid has more than a fair advantage over rich kids. When I got my tech job, I was competeing against a rich kid with a college degree, and I had yet to finish mine, and I beat him out because I worked that !@#$%^&* hard.

[AstroProdigy]

Yes well working your !@#$%^&* off is admirable, but it's still vastly unfair to someone who's had it all handed to him.

[Greased_Lightning]

College education free for the poor? What a load of f'king crap! I worked hard in school to get some academic scholarships for college because my parents aren't made of money and they shouldn't have to be burdened with MY choices. I work for the university in research to make money to pay tuition and gain experience for my career. In the summer, I go home to help out my folks on the farm because of what they've done for me in the past. I don't want mine or my parents' hard earned money to be taxed to give someone else a free ride just because the government says they live below the poverty line. It's like rewarding someone for NOT working, which is the exact opposite of how it is supposed to be.

[AstroProdigy]

Rewarding someone for not working? Do you understand what the vast majority of the working class that works much harder than the rich and still can't afford to send their kids to college so their kids end up trapped in the same cycle? It's not a free ride. You still need to get in even though the rich get a superior education and more opportunities. Sorry if I don't see punishing a generation of kids because they're not rich as the right thing to do. Just because you had to pay doesn't mean everyone else should do the same because you're angry. Your parents' money isn't what needs to be taxed for others education it's the money of the extreme rich who live in extreme luxury with millions left over and complain that they want to be more rich. I like how the GOP has pulled the vail over your head that taxes would be on the poor and not just the rich. Try getting rid of the tax cuts they made after taking control. That'l cover it and then some. It's not just the poverty line it's the people who can't pay for any college which covers working class. You go tell a kid that if he works hard he's still !@#$%^&*ed because he doesn't have money already. You need money to make money or else you'll stay des!@#$%^&*ute. That's the American dream eh?

[NBVegita]

Ahem, you don't need money to make money. Thats just a falsity.

 

I don't agree with giving the rich tax breaks, but why should they get punished for having more money? Are we communist? Or are we robin hood, take from the rich and give to the poor? Even if those rich people worked !@#$%^&* hard to make that money? I agree with greased that I don't want to help pay for someone else's mistakes. The problem is that its easy to just do good enough to get into a school. I think for Syracuse University, if you have anything above and average in school, and score over a 1050 on your sats's (old standard don't know compared to the new one) you can get into the school of arts and science. Thats !@#$%^&* easy. I don't think for an average and a 1050 sat score, you should have your school payed for.

 

As with greased, my parents couldn't afford to send me to college, I knew this. So instead of standing there saying "poor me" and "!@#$%^&* those rich kids" I did something about it. If anyone cannot get a fair education in this country its because they are not working for it. If I can do it, and greased can do it, why are these other people so special?

 

The real issue is that these schools keep raising tuition and room and board. It's rediculous. !@#$%^&* about making school affordable.

[AstroProdigy]

It helps drastically. It's not a punishment seriously. They have more money than they know what to do with. If we didn't promote such a greedy society in America then we might not need to tax them, but we do. Not everyone knows to do something about it (hence why education is so crucial). You can do it, but you can't tell me that you wouldn't have had a much easier time with the free ride money provides. You're right they do keep raising prices and the best schools are usually the most expensive and the ones the rich have the greatest bias towards getting in easier. State universities like the one I go to are much cheaper and they give you an actual chance. However most states aren't like New York so a kid in Alabama has little chance to move out of poverty.

[NBVegita]

Honestly I don't want to have my money taken away from me that I've worked hard for. Say I invest really really well in the stock market, and end up making millions, a good way to get rich. You're telling me that because I'm was smart, and with a lot of luck, earned millions of dollars, that I should have to give that money I worked for to the government? No thanks. I'd rather save it, so I can retire very nicely, put my children through college on my own, make sure my grandchildren can go to college without worry. Honestly, if you've worked for it, it is yours. Even if it was your father, or grandfather who worked for it, its yours. As long as they willed it to you.

[AstroProdigy]

Worked hard for? Working class citizens work hard for the money they earn. CEO's make other people work hard for the money they earn. Sorry if investing in the stock market doesn't seem like hard work to me. See people want a quick rich scheme with the stock market like a lottery when hard work in an educated field you enjoy is the best way to go. Money doesn't come from nowhere in the stock market. When you make money you're essentially stealing it from someone else. Stock brokers are completely meaningless in society. They provide no gain to the advancement of humanity in any way. They in fact hurt us by enticing inexperienced people into throwing away their hard earned money in the stock market. Seriously all the get rich schemes that get people very large sums of money I have no respect for. It teaches kids to go for greed at any cost and this is probably why we still have so many poor along with rich who have enough money to support all the poor, but don't because of their greed. Hopefully one day people will be enlightened enough to see that this is more important than keeping Gays from marrying and stop voting in people like Cheney.

 

My viewpoint may be too optimistic of humanity's potential though so who knows.