Isreal Sends Troops Into Lebanon

[AstroProdigy]

I still am strongly opposed to Sever's idea that Israel should be wiped off the map.

 

So does Syria have Lebanese prisoners too or what?

[Himura Kenshin]

lebnese hate syria. syria has oppressed them in the past aswell. lebanon just wants to be its own country its not a full muslim country you have to know its a good 50/50 christian/muslim and they really coexist and there are are's which are labeled as christian places/muslim places.

 

When i was down there it was such a beutiful place 5 minutes to the beach were its hot as !@#$%^&* and 10 minutes to the rainy mountains i miss it so much

[AstroProdigy]

I think it's down to 40% christian and continuing to fall.

 

If Lebanon hates Syria then why does Hezbollah get its support from Syria and not take action against them the way they do Israel? Is this selective "justice"? I mean if they're "occupied lands" were occupied by Syria as they had been in the past then they wouldn't launch missiles into Syria or even have a problem (as they didn't the whole time Syria owned the Shebaa farms). Not only that, but I'm pretty sure if Israel has Lebanese prisoners then so does Syria AND they occupied more of Lebanon for longer time and even influenced their government. This isn't enough reason to have just as much or even more anymosity towards Syria???

[SVS]

I think it's down to 40% christian and continuing to fall.

 

If Lebanon hates Syria then why does Hezbollah get its support from Syria and not take action against them the way they do Israel? Is this selective "justice"? I mean if they're "occupied lands" were occupied by Syria as they had been in the past then they wouldn't launch missiles into Syria or even have a problem (as they didn't the whole time Syria owned the Shebaa farms). Not only that, but I'm pretty sure if Israel has Lebanese prisoners then so does Syria AND they occupied more of Lebanon for longer time and even influenced their government. This isn't enough reason to have just as much or even more anymosity towards Syria???

 

Eww, stop being rational.

[AstroProdigy]

I'm pretty sure it's less, but they won't do statistics based on religion in Lebanon. Also, the Hezbollah-Israeli conflict probably made more Christian Lebanese emigrate. They should have let Israel arm the Christians so they could shower rockets over Syrian cities. It's only fair.

[SeVeR]

candygirl:

Heres a link ------>Israel’s Roots

"The Jewish people base their claim to the Land of Israel on at least four premises: 1) the Jewish people settled and developed the land; 2) the international community granted political sovereignty in Palestine to the Jewish people; 3) the territory was captured in defensive wars and 4) God promised the land to the patriarch Abraham."

 

1. The Palestinians were settled in the region up until 60 years ago and were there for at least 1,300 years. They farmed the land which without a huge influx of money from the US is the best that could be done to develop it.

 

2. The UN voted and the countries that rejected par!@#$%^&*ion 181 were almost all Muslim. This division along religious lines should have been indicitive of the conflicts to come. Alot can be said for the US bias in the decision and their campaigning obviously went a long way to securing votes. If you don't believe me, read it from Truman, the President responsible.

 

U.S. diplomats from the Mid-East urged Truman not to heed Zionist urgings. He replied: "I'm sorry, gentlemen, but I have to answer to hundreds of thousands who are anxious for the success of Zionism: I do not have hundreds of thousands of Arabs among my cons!@#$%^&*uents." (This quote is hard to find because it shows the racial favouring of an American President who is largely responsible for the creation of Israel and the resultant creation of the continuous fighting in that region) http://www.commondreams.org/views/112800-106.htm

 

At a Chicago rally in 1944, then Senator Truman said, "Today, not tomorrow, we must do all that is humanly possible to provide a haven for all those who can be grasped from the hands of Nazi butchers. Free lands must be opened to them." (Opened? ..and the sympathetic justification scorned by anyone who objects to the premise that two wrongs make a right)

 

He wrote to Senator Joseph Ball of Minnesota on November 24, 1945: "I told the Jews that if they were willing to furnish me with five hundred thousand men to carry on a war with the Arabs, we could do what they are suggesting in the Resolution [favoring a state] - otherwise we we will have to negotiate awhile.

 

Hundreds of thousands of Jews arrived in Palestine between 1880 and 1950, much to the dismay of the Arab population who had lived in that area for 1,300 years. The Jews bought up the land while Truman urged countries across the world to relax laws allowing this m!@#$%^&* immigration of Jews into Palestine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#Zionism_and_Immigration

 

To draw a parallel think what it would be like if 300 million Chinese people immigrated to the USA in the next 70 years. Following this m!@#$%^&* arrival they then got a UN vote that gave them a significant chunk of the USA. The United States people would then rise up against the Chinese leading to a war where China claims the rest of the land reserved for the US people; going against the very organisation that gave them land in the first place.

 

3. Territory cannot be captured defensively.

4. "God promised the land to the patriarch Abraham" The Jews wrote the old testament!!!! !!!! How dumb are you if you think of this as a reason.

[SeVeR]

Astro:

Wiping Israel off the map would be different if Westerners did it because they wouldn't feel the need to commit m!@#$%^&* murders. I think the Arab world is too angry at this point to let them live if they were "wiping Israel off the map".

First, the Arab world wouldn't be in charge of wiping Israel off the map because it would only happen through the UN. The withdrawal would take place under UN supervision by UN countries. The land would then be given back to the Palestinian people after all the Jews who want to leave have left. Certain guarantees would be required from Palestine to give equal rights to those Jews who stay. Westerners would be wiping Israel off the map.

 

What i object to is your !@#$%^&*umption that when Iran says it they mean "kill em all in cold blood".

 

Secondly, you've !@#$%^&*umed that Arabs would kill as many Jews as possible. We know that there are Jewish populations in Middle East countries who are not slaughtered routinely. You're condemning Arab future actions based on your opinion, again.

 

If they had kept war from occuring in the first place the area would have been a becon of peace and religious toleration for the developing world and especially the Muslim world. However that's the opposite of what happened and that's a travesty.

That's sidetracking from the original issue though. If China sent hundreds of millions of immigrants to the US and treated everyone humanely (when the UN decided they should have the country) we'd still be fighting them.

 

It would be a terrible thing and countries would have to start cracking down on Jews because of this nationalism and here we go again more Jewish persecution.

Nationalism for what? They can't ever hope to get a Jewish state made in their new (originally old) countries. Also they could campaign all they want to get Israel back and no-one would persecute them because it doesn't concern the country they're now in. Its a poor excuse for persecution. Secondly there wouldn't ever be persecution of Jews in the US and Western Europe, our societies and governments simply wouldn't allow it and you know that.

 

You accuse me of theorizing the future, but you yourself have created a neat situation where you're solution is the only one that works and it's the one that involves no problems at all.

Giving back stolen propety, apoligising, compensating and admitting faults is the tried and tested way of reconciling. I'm not !@#$%^&*uming it will end all conflict but i think its the best chance we have, and at what cost? 6 million wealthy people have to relocate back to the countries they left 60 years ago or less.

 

Not only that, but Jews in other countries are becoming rapidly !@#$%^&*imilated and they won't sit idly by if they have no country of their own and are destined to die out.

That's progress in my opinion. Preservation of race is basically saying that your race is better than everyone elses.

 

By the way, there are lots of Jews in the US, but they're leagues smaller than the population of the US as a whole (1/50 the population).

There are 6 million Jews in America, whats another few million gonna do to change things?

 

There's a third option: Help most countries in the Muslim world modernize their economic, social, and political spheres. That's what would solve the problems. Help them attain a status comparable to the west and the majority of Muslims will silence their own extremists. The European Union is a great help with this. Look at what Turkey is doing as a result of the European Union. It's opening up it's society for the minorities and making the country generally freer (nor sure if thats the spelling). There's an alternative than Islamic extremism and hopefully one day that's what will win out. (Being dependant on their oil doesn't help.)

Unfortunately this will probably take longer than 50-100 years and by that time oil will be gone. Will our interest in the region remain then?

 

If Lebanon hates Syria then why does Hezbollah get its support from Syria and not take action against them the way they do Israel?

Because Hezbollah is not Lebanon, Hezbollah is not an ally of Lebanon (the government), and they are a military organsation funded by Syria and Iran which just happen to operate in Lebanon because it has a border with Israel and has recently been in conflict with Israel. Hezbollah is an Israeli hating organisation. If the Lebanese government dislikes Syria then Hezbollah don't give a crap since they don't work for the Lebanese government. In fact Astro, this proves what i've been saying all along about the "objectives" of Hezbollah.

 

SVS: You're a parrot.

[AstroProdigy]

1) 300 million Chinese immigrating to the US is COMPLETELY different. For one China has it's own state. On top of that China has no historical claims to own the US. Not only that, but the US and Palestine (before the Jewish influx) are COMPLETELY different. The US is a unique country in that it is composed of countless ethnic groups mixing into a unique American culture. Palestine was an Arab country of Arabs with the same religion, language, culture as Arabs around them. Palestine was a manufactured country by England and as such there's no reason why the term could not be altered.

 

2) Jews would not stay because they know promises of protection by Palestine don't mean diddly squat. That's the thing THERE AREN'T JEWISH POPULATIONS IN MIDDLE EASTERN COUNTRIES BECAUSE THEY WERE FORCED TO LEAVE BY THE ONCOMING ANTI-SEMITISM AND VIOLENCE. Luckily they had a free Israel to go to. Does that destroy your "Arabs wouldn't slaughter the Jews" argument?

 

3) Once again your hypothetical situation with China is completely different as I have shown.

 

4) Ok lets try to take away their hope and you're honestly naive enough to think that would do the trick. We'd have to seriously oppress them to the poind of genocides to get that done. Jews would start to develop themselves as quasi states within states and then Europe and the US would be forced to act. If you honestly think we can't go backwards then you really don't understand anything about society. Countries no matter how "enlightened" can do terrible things if they're forced to.

 

5) A sudden few million would do a !@#$%^&* of a lot to change things. You don't seem to understand economics either. You put the Jews into this racist stereotype of the rich greedy Jew and that they're all the same and then you act like it's like me moving to denver and then moving back to new york city. This is terrible logic.

 

6) Preservation of an ethnic group when it doesn't threaten the destruction of another ethnic group (unless Israel wipes out most of the Middle East and Northern Africa) is justified.

 

7) When they're already on the path to modernization it will get easier and easier not to fall apart and dependance on oil will die out along with the oil supply. Our interest will remain if they start to offer things other than oil. As of now they have a ticking time bomb and when the oil runs out they're gonna be the poorest countries in the world.

 

Hezbollah is a part of the Lebanese government. If they aren't interested in helping Lebanon then they need to be taken out. Of course this isn't the reality, but you can't see this. Hezbollah isn't just an Iran/Syria group that moved to Lebanon and took over the Shiites. They are an organization by and for the Shiites in Lebanon and simply get aid from Syria and Iran.

 

Then again if you're right it completely flys in the face of what masscarnage said and it only proves that Hezbollah is an evil puppet organization that needs to be wiped out. If you're wrong then Hezbollah needs to look into the interests of Lebanon and not just go attack Israel on a whim and not likewise attack other "oppressors" of Lebanon. Either way you're wrong.

[AstroProdigy]

Finding evidence of thousands of Lebanese prisoners in Israel is very difficult.

[SeVeR]

1) 300 million Chinese immigrating to the US is COMPLETELY different. For one China has it's own state. On top of that China has no historical claims to own the US. Not only that, but the US and Palestine (before the Jewish influx) are COMPLETELY different. The US is a unique country in that it is composed of countless ethnic groups mixing into a unique American culture. Palestine was an Arab country of Arabs with the same religion, language, culture as Arabs around them. Palestine was a manufactured country by England and as such there's no reason why the term could not be altered.

For the people being displaced it makes no difference where the intruders are coming from. Historical claims mean next to nothing when the claim is from 1300 years ago. Britain has as much of a claim from the crusades. Who cares if Palestine wasn't recognised by some people as an actual country, the Palestinians still lived there, it was still their homeland. Would you give up your home over a techinicality?

 

2) Jews would not stay because they know promises of protection by Palestine don't mean diddly squat. That's the thing THERE AREN'T JEWISH POPULATIONS IN MIDDLE EASTERN COUNTRIES BECAUSE THEY WERE FORCED TO LEAVE BY THE ONCOMING ANTI-SEMITISM AND VIOLENCE. Luckily they had a free Israel to go to. Does that destroy your "Arabs wouldn't slaughter the Jews" argument?

Yes, it would be risky to stay in Palestine after Israel being wiped off the map. There are 20,000 Jews in Iran, so no it doesn't destroy my argument. Iran you say?!?!? Yes, not as bad as you've been led to believe is it. And you're right they moved to Israel from other Middle East countries, that only means they were given preferential treatment in Israel, it doesn't mean they were persecuted, they existed in those countries to start with! Maybe the anger has made it more difficult in the last 60 years but thats not the fault of the Arabs, especially if they have a right to be angry.

 

4) Ok lets try to take away their hope and you're honestly naive enough to think that would do the trick. We'd have to seriously oppress them to the poind of genocides to get that done. Jews would start to develop themselves as quasi states within states and then Europe and the US would be forced to act. If you honestly think we can't go backwards then you really don't understand anything about society. Countries no matter how "enlightened" can do terrible things if they're forced to.

We won't have to oppress them and who said anything about taking away their hope? There are already Jewish communities in America and Europe and no-one "acts" to destroy them. I'd like to see America or Western Europe openly do something "terrible". Look at America, they can't do anything terrible without an event like 9/11 to give Bush the public outrage he needs to go into a questionable war in Iraq, which even then required reason after reason to justify it. massacring Jews in your own country just wouldn't happen. This is the same paranoia about authority i get from pro-gunners thinking we need guns to combat genocidal governments. Its as if they think a democratic government could become a dictatorship which somehow has power over the army and police, which incidentally has to be made up thousands of mindless, immoral, order-following drones. The army wouldn't follow an order to massacre Jews even if the government suddenly decided it was the right thing to do.

 

To make this even more blindly obvious think about what happened after 9/11? We tried even harder not to discriminate against Muslims, even though all the terrorists were of that origin. There was no massacre and the political correctness went into overdrive. Do you think some Jews immigrating to the US will do anything warranting a massacre unless they decided to overthrow the American government or attempt to conquer land within the US?

 

5) A sudden few million would do a !@#$%^&* of a lot to change things. You don't seem to understand economics either. You put the Jews into this racist stereotype of the rich greedy Jew and that they're all the same and then you act like it's like me moving to denver and then moving back to new york city. This is terrible logic.

Firstly,WTF are you talking about when you say "racist sterotype"? Is this because i said "6 million wealthy people will have to go back to the countries they left 60 years ago or less". Saying the word wealthy warrants calling me a racist? This is exactly what i've been talking about when i refer the OTT political correctness, does the fact that they actually ARE a wealthy country with wealthy citizens mean nothing?

 

As for the economical situation it won't change much, if they were refugees then maybe but they are educated people who would probably boost the economy, opening businesses and filling jobs. America already has thousands of Mexicans entering each year and they're doing it illegally! (no massacre there either, we even talk about giving them citizenship).

 

6) Preservation of an ethnic group when it doesn't threaten the destruction of another ethnic group (unless Israel wipes out most of the Middle East and Northern Africa) is justified.

Ok, but they're still valuing their ethnic group to make it more important than other groups. White supremacists are no different, they want all the blacks gone to preserve the "American Race". Did political correctness make our view so lob-sided? Preservation of race for Jews means not wanting to marry a non-Jewish person, which is the same as valuing your own race as better than other races. Anyway, i think we both know its not a big enough reason to decide the stay-or-go issue.

 

Hezbollah is a part of the Lebanese government. If they aren't interested in helping Lebanon then they need to be taken out. Of course this isn't the reality, but you can't see this. Hezbollah isn't just an Iran/Syria group that moved to Lebanon and took over the Shiites. They are an organization by and for the Shiites in Lebanon and simply get aid from Syria and Iran.

An elected official who happens to belong to Hezbollah was elected to the Lebanese government, this does not mean Hezbollah make military policy decisions for Lebanon on behalf of the government. That official is apart of the government because Lebanon is a democracy. Hezbollah do not take orders from the Lebanese government! They do not give orders either. The elected official is a member of Hezbollah but Hezbollah itself is not apart of the government. They are interested in helping Lebanon, in that way they agree with the government, but their policies do not match and neither do their allegiances.

 

Then again if you're right it completely flys in the face of what masscarnage said and it only proves that Hezbollah is an evil puppet organization that needs to be wiped out. If you're wrong then Hezbollah needs to look into the interests of Lebanon and not just go attack Israel on a whim and not likewise attack other "oppressors" of Lebanon. Either way you're wrong.

What proof is there that Hezbollah are a puppet? They get weapons from Syria and Iran just like Israel gets weapons from the US, is Israel a puppet too? I'll say it again, Hezbollah are not a tool of the Lebanese government and therefore are not an enemy of Syria. - As they aren't attacking Syria this is further proof to what i already believed to be true about the objectives of Hezbollah as a completely separate en!@#$%^&*y to the Lebanese government.

[AstroProdigy]

Is copy and pasting your response from a word do!@#$%^&*ent not allowed because I saved it in a word do!@#$%^&*ent another day because it wouldn't post and now it's still refusing to post unless I write everything out again.

[Dardasaba]

This is just something for those people saying that the response of the IDF was not proportional.

 

This incursion wasn't meant as an act of revenge, it was meant as an operation to find and return the abducted soldiers home and to purge southern lebanon of this terrorist organisation known as hizbollah because the government of lebanon refuses or is unable to do so inorder to prevent this happening again.

 

Blowing up their airport was meant to stop the soldiers from being smuggled out of lebanon and into iran or syria, like the missing soldier Ron Arad who's been abducted for decades now.

 

Now, you could say I'm biased, you're probably right, however, I get my facts straight from my friends serving on the line. I have close friends in the infantry, artillery and the airforce and I hear what's going on there straight from them. I don't know where some of you have been getting your facts from, cause some are abseloutly false and infact, I wouldn't be surprised if you're making it up to support your case which you've already lost before you've even started.

[AstroProdigy]

Won't let me again.