AstroProdigy Posted August 30, 2006 Report Posted August 30, 2006 What Israel did 2 decades ago is purely an act of revenge by Lebanon (revenge doesn't make right). I believe Israel stayed in a small area in the South that was actually claimed by both Lebanon and Syria. What is truly right? Killing all the Jews is the true cause? Israel went into Lebanon the first time to fight against the PLO which was attacking Israel. I'd like to see sources of supposed 1000 Lebanese prisoners that need to be returned. If Israel wanted to unleash the full power of their forces like Lebanon was there wouldn't be a Lebanon left on the map. Hezbollah launched thousands of rockets at Israeli civilian areas, but Israel caused more casualties because their weapons are more effective. It's also largely that Israel has much more effective plans for protecting it's civilians (such as bomb shelters and more effective evacuation procedures) from attacks, which reduced casualties quite a bit. Hezbollah's tactics are to attack civilians while hiding among civilians; if you're willing to give your life away to support Hezbollah attacking among civilians like you then you really are extremist to the situation. Just because Hezbollah denies most of it's casualties to make it look like Israel was just attacking civilians doesn't mean Israel didn't kill a !@#$%^&* of a lot of Hezbollah fighters. Israel could have run their part more efficiently, so people are now calling for the resignation. Hezbollah purposely ran a dirty war against civilians and now they're praised by people in Lebanon. That's a huge difference. Another huge difference is if Hezbollah stopped it's attacks, then so would Israel, however, if Israel stopped it's attacks, Hezbollah would continue it's attacks. I know you're emotional about the issue, but put yourself on the other side with Hezbollah firing rockets at you and killing people you know. You're opinion would be the opposite, which just goes to show that your opinion is clearly clouded by your own personal experience and can't seem look past what happened to you specifically and are readily willing to buy into Lebanese propaganda. I wasn't brainwashed by American news; I bairly paid attention to the news; I researched the situation myself.
masscarnage Posted August 30, 2006 Report Posted August 30, 2006 Hizbollah hasnt chosen to attack civilians you dont know anything it is against our religion to kill civilians in war, BUT isreal kept on attacking lebanese civilians on purpose not on any facts. If they thought there was ONE hizbollah soldier in a building filled with civilians they would shoot it down to kill that one soldier which they DID and killed 50+ innocent women and children with no hizbollah soldier present in the building. Not only has isreal commited terrorist attacks upon lebanon they KEEP on invading palestine killing innocent people, kidnapping politicians. There was an incident in gaza were and isreali warship fired a bomb upon a family of 7 people, one of the kids went to the restroom and comes back to find his family blown to bits on the beach for NO REASOn whats so every. I came upon my opinion on my own, i believed hizbollah was a straight up group of thugs like ussama bin laden, but the more i read up on the history the more i came to the fact that this is all Bush, Blair, and Isreals fualt. The fighting will not stop until there is justice on both parts. For there to be justice isreal must fully retreat from palestine & lebanon, return the innocent muslims they hold in their own prisons. All the newscasts out there today are comletely biased they try to show it off as if isreal is the hero's isreal the a terrorist that is backed up by america. America gives isreal 100's of nuclear weapons, fighter planes, bo,mbs that can reach all of the muslim world yet hizbollah gets criticized for accepting bombs from iran. The only reason isreal is decked out is becuase of america. If its wrong for Iran to gear up hizbollah then the same is said for america giving isreal bombs. If hizbollah had any fighter planes as isreal did the war would have been over along time ago since they would have fought with isreal on an even playing field unlike isreal's one sided war even with it beeing one sided hizbollah gave them a fight not to be forgotten any time soon. They are hailed as the group to fight back against isreals transgressions and will only grow stronger politically and gain more support from non-muslims until the world can truly see who the real terrorists are and that is Isreal.
AstroProdigy Posted August 30, 2006 Report Posted August 30, 2006 Yes yes a mistake by Israel based on incorrect intelligence not on an intent to kill civilians. Yup Hezbollah doesn't attack civilians sure why not go with that line. Lebanon isn't Palestine. When Turkey kills Kurdish civilians what does Lebanon say? NOTHING! Hezbollah isn't just a thug organization. They're a lot smarter than that and they know how to manipulate the situation. Israel must fully retreat from Palestine? You're suggesting for there to be no more Israel and then what would happen to the "innocent jews"? Oh that doesn't matter now does it? If you want to throw around crap that Israel was continuuing to occupy Lebanon after 2000 show me proof. Yes yes all newscasts are biased they are owned by the Zionists bla bla bla. Bush, Blair, and Israel? Either you're saying that they are 3 countries or they are 3 people. Either way you're twisting the situation into one that makes it easier to call for a Holocaust. The United States, the United Kingdom, and Israel are all in agreement that Hezbollah is not a nice little rational party. It is an extremist Shiia Islamic organization. Most of the west would agree and although much of the world would condemn Israel for some faulty actions that caused more civilian deaths than were necessary, none of them support Hezbollah as a just organization that's not at fault. That is mainly from the Muslim world and mainly from Syria (which wants to influence Lebanon and would love to see a massacre of the Jews) and Iran (which wants to influence Hezbollah and Shiia worlwide to gain power and would love to see a massacre of the Jews). Proof that America gave Israel hundreds of nuclear weapons? By the way Israel is well capable of creating its own nuclear weapons. Hezbollah having weapons isn't a problem so much as what they do with those weapons, mainly attacking other countries with no provocation. Also, a somewhat rogue Lebanese militia being more powerful than Lebanon itself is a problem. Israel doesn't call for the destruction of Lebanon that's why they're allowed weapons. If Hezbollah had fighter planes Israel would demolish them with their vastly superior tactics they way they did to Egypt, Jordan, and Syria in a matter of days. Hezbollah's only trump card was to use civilians as shields and knowing Israel wouldn't cause the civilian casualties they are capable of because they aren't a terrorist organization aimed at simply killing everyone regardless if they're civilian or military. I'm sure other groups will take from Hezbollah's example and sacrifice civilians in order to gain political victories. Hezbollah will not gain support from non-muslims outside of Lebanon because stable democratic countries aren't stupid. I'm sure Hezbollah will gain lots of support from Shiites. I don't even see Sunnis outside of Lebanon moving to support Hezbollah since this is as much a conflict between Sunni and Shiia Islam as it is between Israel and certain Muslim countries. I'm sure saying "terrorist Israeli state" let's you sleep at night not thinking about the millions of civilians that organizations like Hezbollah would massacre if they had the chance.
masscarnage Posted August 30, 2006 Report Posted August 30, 2006 Hizbollah doesnt hide out with the civilians they use the mountains were they grew up in. Even if they were to move out to the open what would happen? Isreal just sends their planes and theyre gone. I dont need proof of isreal still holding land in lebanon i was there in 200 and witnessed it with my own eyes. Ever since that day ive been going towards a journalism career to show the truth. If you'd like to see anything of value check out george galloways interview hes my inspiration to become a journalist that shows the reality of the situation with out beeing brainwashed and forced what to tell. You havent showed me 1 bit of evidence that validates your own views. If you checked other newspapers from lebanon you can see that they havent fully left and that theyve always been at the farms in southern lebanon. You dont even know what you are truly talking about Just recently america gave isreal one of the most sophisticated fighter planes on the market. The facts are out there the real terrorist is Isreal. They invade and attack their neghbors and get their propaganda out to the world. You are shielded by America's news media from ever getting real news. I was watching al-jazerah's news coverage and saw a man holding up his 4 year old duaghters torso her bottom had been blown up by a bomb. Isreal has had a trainstation bombed with no casualties whats so ever. In the end this has been a severe loss for Isreal, Bush, and blaine. they have had their reputations torn to shreds (as if bush had any), and has only boosted up support for hizbollah. The civilians that have been injured in lebanon and the homeless are now beeing taken care of by Hizbollah as well. The money iran is giving to Hizbollah has been going towards rebuilding and giving out charity to the lebanese people who have lost everything. They helped them out before any aid came out or any one put up a finger to help.
candygirl Posted August 30, 2006 Report Posted August 30, 2006 Hizbollah doesnt hide out with the civilians they use the mountains were they grew up in. Even if they were to move out to the open what would happen? Isreal just sends their planes and theyre gone. I dont need proof of isreal still holding land in lebanon i was there in 200 and witnessed it with my own eyes. Ever since that day ive been going towards a journalism career to show the truth. If you'd like to see anything of value check out george galloways interview hes my inspiration to become a journalist that shows the reality of the situation with out beeing brainwashed and forced what to tell. You havent showed me 1 bit of evidence that validates your own views. If you checked other newspapers from lebanon you can see that they havent fully left and that theyve always been at the farms in southern lebanon. You dont even know what you are truly talking about Just recently america gave isreal one of the most sophisticated fighter planes on the market. The facts are out there the real terrorist is Isreal. They invade and attack their neghbors and get their propaganda out to the world. You are shielded by America's news media from ever getting real news. I was watching al-jazerah's news coverage and saw a man holding up his 4 year old duaghters torso her bottom had been blown up by a bomb. Isreal has had a trainstation bombed with no casualties whats so ever. In the end this has been a severe loss for Isreal, Bush, and blaine. they have had their reputations torn to shreds (as if bush had any), and has only boosted up support for hizbollah. The civilians that have been injured in lebanon and the homeless are now beeing taken care of by Hizbollah as well. The money iran is giving to Hizbollah has been going towards rebuilding and giving out charity to the lebanese people who have lost everything. They helped them out before any aid came out or any one put up a finger to help. Humm what are you smoking or did you take somthing?
masscarnage Posted August 30, 2006 Report Posted August 30, 2006 lol is that the only comment you could make? please go out do some research and come back.
SeVeR Posted August 30, 2006 Report Posted August 30, 2006 To all the reASSS that believe hizbollah is the terrorist orginization GOOD JOB YOU HAVE BEEN SUCCESSFULLY BRAINWASHED BY THE BIASED AMERICAN NEWS.stop to the terrorist state that is isreal. Absolute genius, finally another perosn who hasn't bought into the good vs evil, democracy vs terrorism crap thrown at you by American News Corporations... wasn't that guy from Fox News promoted into the government not long ago as Bush's spokesperson? Humm what are you smoking or did you take somthing? It's that kind of dismissive at!@#$%^&*ude that really pisses me off, you don't have anything to say other than the regurgitation of propogandist opinion. I don't have time for a more extensive reply, that will come tomorrow.
AstroProdigy Posted August 31, 2006 Report Posted August 31, 2006 Yes calling me an ignorant Republican who just gets his news from FOX is a nice argument for someone else, but for me it's just a lame attempt to ignore what I'm saying. Hezbollah doesn't hide amongst civilians? There's extensive proof on the contrary. You don't need proof of Israel continuing to occupy Lebanon after 2000? Cool that means there isn't any. Yes I have watched George Galloway's interview. You say the exact same things he said (shows what your opinions are based on). He doesn't show proof of the basic claims for continued warfare and neither do you that's nice. So you just spew out what this guy says. You say Israel continued to occupy Lebanon and then showed no proof. I ask for proof and you respond by saying you don't need any and that I need to show proof that they didn't continue to occupy parts of South Lebanon....nice. Propaganda is just a non Lebanese phenomena huh? Nice one. Israel would dominate the air even with an inferior air force like they did in the 6 day war. You obviously don't know what you're talking about. Israel has invaded other countries in response to their own attacks on Israel you completely ignore this. Like I said I bairly even pay attention to American media on this issue, but this doesn't fit you "OMG ISRAEL IS A TERRORIST STATE OF DEVILS THEY NEED TO ALL DIE AND ANYONE WHO DISAGREES IS BRAINWASHED!" argument. Yes I'm sure showing a dead baby's body is very emotional, its enough reason to massacre millions more, including women and children right? Again you say "Bush, Blaire, and Israel" equating Israel as a person you think it's evil so then ITS OK TO KILL ALL THE JEWS CUZ ITS JUST ONE PERSON YOU HATE LIKE BUSH AND BLAIRE ITS NOT MILLIONS OF INNOCENT CIVILIANS!! You buy into the propaganda hook line and sinker. Yes, Iran is helping its own agenda and using the people of Lebanon and Hezbollah to further that agenda (exterminate the jews and become a world power). Yes that's what their ultimate plan is. It doesn't take an idiot to realize the Nazi-like extremism of Iranian government. It's sad that you play into that propaganda. You think I'm extreme, but no you have no idea what the extreme on the other side is. It's almost as extreme as your side. If the moderates like me let them do what they wanted Israel would have a much bigger state and everyone else who was there would be dead. I like how Sever says "bought into the good vs evil" but all he's doing is gladly reversing the good vs evil role.
candygirl Posted August 31, 2006 Report Posted August 31, 2006 What major attacks is Hezbollah responsible for?Hezbollah and its affiliates have planned or been linked to a lengthy series of terrorist attacks against the United States, Israel, and other Western targets. These attacks include: a series of kidnappings of Westerners in Lebanon, including several Americans, in the 1980s; the suicide truck bombings that killed more than 200 U.S. Marines at their barracks in Beirut, Lebanon, in 1983; the 1985 hijacking of TWA flight 847, which featured the famous footage of the plane’s pilot leaning out of the !@#$%^&*pit with a gun to his head; two major 1990s attacks on Jewish targets in Argentina—the 1992 bombing of the Israeli Emb!@#$%^&*y (killing twenty-nine) and the 1994 bombing of a Jewish community center (killing ninety-five). a July 2006 raid on a border post in northern Israel in which two Israeli soldiers were taken captive. The abductions sparked an Israeli military campaign against Lebanon to which Hezbollah responded by firing rockets across the Lebanese border into Israel. terrorists or not? I say yes
AstroProdigy Posted August 31, 2006 Report Posted August 31, 2006 No no Hezbollah must be innocent victims because masscarnage was on one side of the effected people and must see things rationally since he saw it from both sides...oh no one side only. He also calls for the destruction of Israel (and in effect the genocide of millions); that's the rational side alright. Sever calls for the destruction of Israel and supports Hezbollah because they must be the good guys if they are attacking Israel right? I mean since continuing murder on civilians means that your cause is still worthwhile because peaceful acts of resistance means your cause doesn't matter. But no ignore the reality of what's there and call for some imaginary (and impossible) replacement state and let's force millions of people to flee because Arabs need more land than all the other land they already stole in the name of Islam. They brought it on themselves thinking that if they try killing all the Jews back then it would have worked out and instead it backfired so its TOO BAD. Palestinian is basically a manufactured term created by Britain, but since it can be used as a weapon to rearabize the land then why not use it? I mean when other groups oppress non Arabs (including Arabs oppressing non Arabs) then they call for the destruction of those states too even when it hurts them because that's what's right and Islam teaches morals. OH RIGHT THEY ONLY USE IT WHEN IT SUITS THEM AND WHEN IT DOESN'T JUST PUSH IT UNDER THE RUG. THEIR OWN MUCH MORE HORRIBLE ACTS DON'T MEAN ANYTHING BECAUSE CERTAIN PEOPLE IN THE WEST CAN'T TAKE THEIR HEADS OUT OF THE SAND AND JUST WANT TO APPEASE EXTREMISTS WHO ALSO WOULD CALL FOR OUR OWN DESTRUCTION BECAUSE WE DON'T SUIT ISLAM AND ARABIZATION!!!! BUT NO IF I DISAGREE THEN I AM JUST IGNORANT AND REPEATING BUSH/BLAIR/ISRAEL MEDIA PROPAGANDA BECAUSE THAT MUST BE THE ONLY WAY TO DISAGREE! AL JAZEERA MUST BE PURE AND PERFECT BECAUSE ISLAM IS RIGHT HUH? LOOKS TO ME LIKE EXTREMISTS FEED YOU !@#$%^&* TO HELP WITH THEIR OWN AGENDAS AND YOU'RE NOT BRIGHT ENOUGH TO SEE THE BIG PICTURE!!
masscarnage Posted August 31, 2006 Report Posted August 31, 2006 wow asro you are some weird person, i have read alot of your replies in this post and many others all you do is put words in other peoples mouth, I said Isreal needs to be put on a shorter leash, they shouldnt have the right to be able to do what they are doing right now. As for any proof on the items i have stated check out time.com the time magazine i read a few articles last night there that backed up what i said, id link them but im running short on time atm ill post it when i finish school. Astro when you try to post please put some facts i instead of putting down the person your debating with, in a real debate you would just lose since your just slandering the person your talking with and putting words in their motuh that is all you do and i truly have nothing to say to you until you actually try to put a logical explanation up. ------ as for candy girl, hizballah's first leader had a terroristic ideoligy but when Nasrallah was made leader he changed path's into a more political group and a group that will help lebanon and protect lebanon from isreal's aggreasion towards the muslims. Right now the israeli's hate their prime minister they all feel like they lost the war and they did lose the war. They didnt set off to do any of their goals. Instead they used cluster bombs provided by the U.S. in a civlian neighborhood. Who the !@#$%^&* uses a cluster bomb in a civilian neighborhood if they arent trying to kill civlilians with the hizballah's. The U.S. congress is now also debating about this due to the fact they supplied them with it. (this information was paraphrased from a couple Time.com articles.)
masscarnage Posted August 31, 2006 Report Posted August 31, 2006 one otherthing becuase this just hit me. Since me and server are the only ones who are against israel here why is it you keep saying we want all the jews dead, becuase that is a straight out lie. Going with your logic you want all the muslims to die since were against your way of thinking. We are a peaceful religion with crazy fanatics that get brainwashed into blowing them selves up. and yes they will get whats commin for them in the end. So please sotp saying i want all the jews dead becuase i dont. I want isreal to be punished for its warcrimes and to respect its borders.
SeVeR Posted August 31, 2006 Report Posted August 31, 2006 Sever calls for the destruction of Israel and supports Hezbollah because they must be the good guys if they are attacking Israel right?Sever says "bought into the good vs evil" but all he's doing is gladly reversing the good vs evil role. 1. I want Israel wiped off the map through the eradication of corruption in the international community. A consensus could then be reached within the UN to remove Israel from the Middle East as much as is physically possible before giving the land back to the people who lived there before the invasion occurring after WW2. The Jewish community would have to either choose to remain under new leadership or leave. This is my stance, and its so far from "kill em all". So please Astro, stop putting words into people's mouths. I know it's nice to believe we think that, your own opinion would not stand up otherwise, but its not going to get you any credit with people on this thread who can remember what was written one or two posts ago (this is why i use quotes). 2. I don't support Hezbollah's actions. I do understand that their distaste of Israel would largely go ignored if there were not conflicts like these to raise public awareness. I think that there are other ways to get attention. I do not know what good is but i try my best, i personally would not attack Israel so Hezbollah are far from being my idea of the good guys in this conflict, but to brand them with the "evil/terrorist" tag is far from fair. When you think for one second WHY they are fighting rather than doing what you're doing, -reducing their motives to unprovoked irrational behaviour-, you'll realise that this is a conflict where good and evil do not play any role, the only difference is a difference of opinion. The Muslims believe that Israel should not exist and if you studied the creation of Israel beyond "the UN said its ok" then you'll likely end up agreeing with them. Unfortunately its hard to agree when you're led to believe that they're a bunch of extremist/evil/terrorists. 3. I'm not reversing the good and evil labels. Israel and its people are not evil and Hezbollah is not good. If anything i've been trying to dispel the whole belief that there is such a thing in this conflict as good and evil because it seems to be a large factor in your way of thinking. Its as if you're refusing to ask yourself the crucial question of why they're fighting Israel and resigning yourself to the promotional opinion that Hezbollah are unprovoked, irrational and evil. Proof that America gave Israel hundreds of nuclear weapons? By the way Israel is well capable of creating its own nuclear weapons.Israel were allowed to produce nuclear weapons and were given or sold the materials to do so by the US. If you sell a kid a gun and he happens to melt down some metal into bullets then are you blameless when he kills someone? Where did Israel get their cluster bombs from? Their fighter planes? You think Israel just developed and built all this weaponry? Its no different from Iran supplying Hezbollah. Hezbollah's only trump card was to use civilians as shields and knowing Israel wouldn't cause the civilian casualties they are capable of because they aren't a terrorist organization aimed at simply killing everyone regardless if they're civilian or military A larger percentage of Lebanese deaths were civilians compared to Israeli deaths. Many of the Israeli deaths were from that rocket aimed at an Israeli military staging point. How are you differentiating between Israel and Hezbollah here? Is it that little preconceived notion that Israel are rational/good, and Hezbollah are irrational/evil? Hezbollah doesn't hide amongst civilians?So you suggest Hezbolah should build military bases? What would happen then? I'll tell you, they'd all be wiped out in hours. They operate within built up areas to avoid detection because of Israel's "superior" weaponry sold to them by the US! If Israel wasn't armed by the US then Hezbollah might be more tempted to fight a more traditional war rather than this strike-and-hide one. Yes, Iran is helping its own agenda and using the people of Lebanon and Hezbollah to further that agenda (exterminate the jews and become a world power). Yes that's what their ultimate plan is. It doesn't take an idiot to realize the Nazi-like extremism of Iranian government. It's sad that you play into that propaganda. Oh my God... so Iran is an extremist-Nazi-like state now? They have an opinion that goes against yours so you're calling them Nazis? You're completely brainwashed! And going way back, Israel has targetted Christian areas. Look it up on your own news sites (other than Fox, i don't trust them) As for Iran wanting to "dominate the region", so what? The US has dominated the Western World, is that wrong? No? Then why is it wrong for Iran? Oh thats right... they're "evil"
AstroProdigy Posted August 31, 2006 Report Posted August 31, 2006 Do you understand Hezbollah's goals at all? They don't want a shorter leash for Israel they want to kill Israel (and every jew inside). You guys support an organization that would do what you claim you don't support. Who uses a cluster bomb in a civilian neighborhood? Who launches rockets randomly at towns and cities with no military target in mind? Islam may be a peaceful religion, but it is the extremists who run quite a lot of the Muslim world and the rest lets them. If Israel loses its military power watch the suicide bombings turn into invasions. I looked up your claim that Israel was still occupying farms in Southern Lebanon. Turns out it's just a bull!@#$%^&* !@#$%^&*faced excuse. Israel captured the Shebaa farms from SYRIA. It's sort of a disuted boundary between Lebanon and Syria (that Syria had control of) and Israel captured it. You know what that means for Hezbollah's use of this as their reason for continued attacks on Israel? IT'S AN EXCUSE SO THEY'RE EXCUSED TO KEEP ATTACKING ISRAEL! If I was running Israel I'd say give it back to Syria so Hezbollah can stfu and have to look for a new excuse to kill civilians. Actually that might help Israel by forcing Hezbollah to turn on Syria for the land. Oh right they're not going to because the area IS POLITICS! IT'S ABOUT POLITICS AND EXCUSES! ----- Sever you are blind to reality aren't you? Sorry you don't want them all killed, you're just completely blind to the reality of what would REALLY happen. For one, where would millions of people suddenly go? Last i checked all arable land is occupied already. No more Israel because no country would allow them to make a country within their country. Bye bye all the work they put into making Israel a 1st world country they're just handing that over to Palestinians now. Forget the religious reasons for being there because Islam is more important huh? Best case scenario: Jews are dispersed into dozens of countries and have trouble settling into minority status again and this results in renewed persecution of the Jews. The Jews left in the newly formed Palestine face extreme persecution and either flee or are killed. Worst case scenario: Jews are massacred while they're preparing to leave because their neighbors can't resist the chance to kill as many Jews as possible. Any leftovers go to western countries and incite them to hate the Middle East. This precedes a huge war between Islam and Christianity. There's your end times. Sever if you study the exodus of Palestinians you'll see that it was spurred on by Palestinian religious leaders to create a refugee crisis and give an excuse for what's going on now and what they want to happen. It's not about good and evil. It's about backward extremists and modern moderates. Who do you think we're gonna support? The United States hardly sold Israel completed warheads and said "here stick some uranium in here and you're finished." Lot's of countries have nuclear weapons even a Muslim one. It's not about good and evil. It's about politics. Israel knows they could never get away with simply firebombing civilians to solve the problem and Hezbollah uses this to their benefit. I'm suggesting getting their goals using PEACE. The world greatly appreciates countries that use peaceful resistance instead of violence. This would help Lebanon loads more than what they do now. Listen to the President of Iran's speaches. Look at the extremism in Iran that would allow for the actions that the President of Iran would like to commit. Sounds very close to how the Nazis were able to do what they did. Extremist countries whos president has talked about destroying the West means they don't get to dominate the region.
SeVeR Posted August 31, 2006 Report Posted August 31, 2006 I'm suggesting getting their goals using PEACE. The world greatly appreciates countries that use peaceful resistance instead of violence. This would help Lebanon loads more than what they do now.Then we agree. However with the US dictating what gets done in the world they probably wouldn't even get heard about on the news. In fact many people might even think that because Hezbollah stopped fighting they are happy with their situation. If Hezbollah and Hamas weren't attacking Israel all the time then we'd probably think that the creation of Israel wasn't a big deal and people are happy enough to coexist in the current world. This war has given Hezbollah alot of attention and unfortunately the violence has helped raise public awareness of their cause. Would we pay attention otherwise? Do we pay attention to the Kurds? (Your other topic). The US is the dictator of much of what happens through the UN and the US is flexible (somewhat) based on public opinion. How do you reach the American public? Through TV. How do you get on TV? You get on the news. How do you get on the news? You go to war. Its unfortunate and i disagree with the violence. You need only look at the likelihood of success from the alternative to see why there is a war. You tell me that this is a war that can't be won. Physically yes, but that horrible phrase used in Iraq has alot of meaning here: "hearts and minds" is what they're aiming for. Everyone now knows about Hezbollah and everyone knows they feel very strongly about Israel, everyone is asking why and looking at history now. The US is convincing us not to look at history by dismissing them as terrorists who are unprovoked, irrational, extremist, madmen who are not worth the time of educated people. Listen to the President of Iran's speaches. Look at the extremism in Iran that would allow for the actions that the President of Iran would like to commit. I agree with much of what the President of Iran has said. While there must always be some level of suspicion, we can not condemn the man based on the presentation of him in the media. What has Iran actually done? They want Israel gone, they've supplied a group with weapons who also want it gone, and they want nuclear power. What has the US done? They want Israel to stay, they've supplied Israel with weapons to eliminate those who want it gone, and they've condemned Iran and threatened them with sanctions with the unwarranted unproven !@#$%^&*umption that Iran wants nuclear weapons. What is there here other than a difference of opinion? Yet somehow you believe there is something more. Extremist countries whos president has talked about destroying the West means they don't get to dominate the region.When did he say "destroy the West"? Israel knows they could never get away with simply firebombing civilians to solve the problem and Hezbollah uses this to their benefit. Yet they do it anyway AND get away with it... at least in the minds of enough people. The United States hardly sold Israel completed warheads and said "here stick some uranium in here and you're finished."How do you know? All i'm saying here is Israel was allowed to have nuclear weapons and was one of the earliest countries to do so. Those are facts. Only the US, UK, China, France, and India had nukes before Israel. Israel was only 30 years old at the time, are you telling me they already had a nuclear weapons construction lab set up and had developed the bomb by themselves whilst acquiring all the materials by themselves? Commom sense would say that the US had a large part in Israel's acquisition of nukes. Either through specifications, materials and knowledge or through directly selling/giving them the completed hardware. Sever if you study the exodus of Palestinians you'll see that it was spurred on by Palestinian religious leaders to create a refugee crisis and give an excuse for what's going on now and what they want to happen. You can't manufacture a refugee crisis because people don't want to be refugees!!! You're going way overboard now to justify your opinions. You're accusing the Palestianians of being 'made' into refugees by Palestinian leaders? I can't understand how someone could be so bent to a particular way of thinking, you're incredible. For one, where would millions of people suddenly go? Last i checked all arable land is occupied already. No more Israel because no country would allow them to make a country within their country. Bye bye all the work they put into making Israel a 1st world country they're just handing that over to Palestinians now. Forget the religious reasons for being there because Islam is more important huh?The millions of people would leave or be governed within Palestine. They'd go to wherever they can, since they shouldn't be where they are now. This would probably be Europe, Russia and the US. A large perentage of the Jews in Israel arrived from Russia initially, many others from Europe and some from the US. They would go back to what they left behind, they have money, they would be welcomed back to the communities they left behind 50 years ago. Islam is not more important, whats important is: 1. There is a war going on between Israel and Islam2. We must take a side based on who lived on that land while it was still at peace. I don't give a flying !@#$%^&* how developed Israel is. -Is this another of your excuses for holding your opinion? If somebody steals my seat in the cinema then i don't care if they have a jumbo pack of popcorn, an extra large coke, a pillow, a large anorak and a god-!@#$%^&*ed footwarmer that they've carefully set up on MY seat. I don't care if they're Muhatma Ghandi's love-child, an AIDS doctor or the most rational person on Earth, if they won't give my seat back then i'm taking it no matter how fantastic they seem and no matter how much time and effort they've put into making my seat their home. Get it? These things are no excuse for the initial crime. Worst case scenario: Jews are massacred while they're preparing to leave because their neighbors can't resist the chance to kill as many Jews as possible. Any leftovers go to western countries and incite them to hate the Middle East. This precedes a huge war between Islam and Christianity. There's your end times. Jews inciting people to hate the Middle East so that we go to war? Not gonna happen... especially as its only public opinion that will change the government of the US. Best case scenario: Jews are dispersed into dozens of countries and have trouble settling into minority status again and this results in renewed persecution of the Jews. The Jews left in the newly formed Palestine face extreme persecution and either flee or are killed. Muslims don't get persecuted in the UK, US and most of Europe, i'm willing to bet the Jews could probably do even better. We don't live in Nazi Germany, even back then though, 60 years ago, Jews lived reasonably well in most countries barring Germany.
AstroProdigy Posted August 31, 2006 Report Posted August 31, 2006 Iran has not done much because at the moment they would bring themselves down if they act. If they situation changed they would act. When your leaders say "flee" when from Israel's actions against the minority who stayed has not been that of persecution then that is what it means. Are you that blind to see a peachy keen situation returning to countries that most of them are no longer from since they were born in Israel and suddenly all Israelis are rich and can do great and be welcomed by open arms. A SUDDEN EXODUS DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY! LOOK INTO THE HISTORY OF ANTISEMITISM ELSEWHERE IN THE WORLD BEFORE WORLD WAR 2 BEFORE YOU THROW ANOTHER IGNORANT STATEMENT OUT LIKE "THE NATIVE AMERICANS ARE HAPPY WITH THEIR SITUATION". Muslims came specifically from other countries and were specifically minority immigrants. With Israel people would be coming from a destroyed country and would look for nationalism in the new countries. Look what Palestinians did in other countries where they had considerable numbers. It doesn't just go smoothly and the people who stayed in Israel would get massacred by the veangant Palistanians. Then we'd have an extremist state with all the resources of Israel to deal with. Why don't we leave them Israel's nuclear weapons too? That's smart. The War between Islam and Judaism hides a much bigger war that we so far have kept at bay between Christianity and Islam. Actions like what you suggest are ways to go towards opening the flood gates to an explosive war where no one wins and millions die (at best). This is the bigger picture you ignore when you call for the destruction of Israel. If things were so neat and perfect in the first place there wouldn't be a problem and everyone would have land. I approve how masscarnage doesn't believe that Israel shouldn't be wiped off the map. Seriously this is an impossible situation you suggest. Yes Israel should give the Shebaa farms to Lebanon. It wouldn't make much of a difference to Israel and it would destroy the main reason for continued conflict between Israel and Lebanon. When Israel gave back the Sinai peninsula to Egypt...well we haven't seen open war between the two countries since then have we? As for difference of opinion http://time.blogs.com/daily_dish/2006/08/t...ar_for_our.html
SeVeR Posted September 1, 2006 Report Posted September 1, 2006 Iran has not done much because at the moment they would bring themselves down if they act. If they situation changed they would act.Look at what you're saying! You're telling me how a government would act in the future based on your opinion of them. I happen to agree with alot of what Iran says and does, just because i don't like Bush it doesn't mean i'll pretend to know his future actions to incriminate him in the here and now! That's what you're doing, guilty by future possible actions that are determined by opinion. Considering that in your opinion "wiping Israel of the map" means m!@#$%^&*-murder rather than what it would mean when any Westerner would say it, I have to conclude that your opinion is not your own. When your leaders say "flee" when from Israel's actions against the minority who stayed has not been that of persecution then that is what it means. What? I need an interpreter because that made no sense. Are you that blind to see a peachy keen situation returning to countries that most of them are no longer from since they were born in Israel and suddenly all Israelis are rich and can do great and be welcomed by open arms.Again, your use of the English language is deteriating. I cannot understand. I think you're criticising my belief that Israeli's will be able to move to other countries. Well, they are wealthy, have relatives in the countries of their origins, have the combined wealth of their country to distribute to their citizens... i think they'll do pretty well for themselves. A SUDDEN EXODUS DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY! LOOK INTO THE HISTORY OF ANTISEMITISM ELSEWHERE IN THE WORLD BEFORE WORLD WAR 2 BEFORE YOU THROW ANOTHER IGNORANT STATEMENT OUT LIKE "THE NATIVE AMERICANS ARE HAPPY WITH THEIR SITUATION". You tripped the caps lock button. I admitted i don't know alot about the Native Americans since i've never had to learn (and never chose to learn) American History. This is actually really relevent to a point in my previous post that you completely ignored. When a people do not fight for what they believe to be theirs they will be in danger of being ignored and even thought of as acceptant of what they now have. The history of Anti-semitism is overblown. The Jewish have always been an educated race and as a result were prolific writers. Other ethnic groups have been persecuted in similar ways. The only reason the history of Jewish persecution spans such a large period in time is because they've always chosen to segregate themselves. Their very religion only recommends Jewish-Jewish marriage to preserve their race, they segregate themselves in that way choosing only to integrate in the ways that suit them. Of course this is no excuse for their persecution but it is the reason. Any group choosing to exist in this way should have expected persecution throughout history. However none of this relates to our current world. Jews are not persecuted in the USA, UK, most of Europe and Russia. We are in the age of political correctness, liberalism and capitalism and as a result minority groups are not persecuted. There are hundreds of thousands of Muslims in the UK who are not persecuted, there will always be some people who hate minorities but not on a national scale in all of the Western World, Australia and NZ. To say they will be persecuted is the same as saying we need guns in public hands to stop our government from committing genocide against us. Times change. There are 6 million Jews in the US! And as you can see from this source there are hundreds of thousands of Jews in other countries too. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsourc...ism/jewpop.htmlAre there racial hate crimes against Jews in the USA, Canada, UK, France on a scale unequalled by other minorities? No. By the way there are more Jews in America than in Israel. With Israel people would be coming from a destroyed country and would look for nationalism in the new countries. Look what Palestinians did in other countries where they had considerable numbers.They were from those countries before they came to Israel! I'm only asking to correct something that happened 60 years ago. Again, you are appealing to their deep-routedness in Israel and that means nothing to me, and it certainly means nothing to the people fighting Israel with those who want their land back. What evidence do you have of the supposed problems Palestinians caused in other countries? Oh and by the way before you come out with rampant refugee stories take a little look closer to home (Hint: New Orleans). Why don't we leave them Israel's nuclear weapons too? That's smart. Why would we want to do that? A Null point. Israel actually still denies they have them (are you going to start believing that now?) but its obvious that the US and Israel would have them removed. And i object to you calling a future Palestinian country an extremist state, what right do you have to say that? This is the bigger picture you ignore when you call for the destruction of Israel. If things were so neat and perfect in the first place there wouldn't be a problem and everyone would have land.Again, you're theorising about the future and telling me that this is a certainty. Its not. We struck first and they will keep striking us until we put things right. You talk about a war if we give back Israel, but there will always be a war if we don't. Its obvious that Islam won't just "get over it" in the near future so unless we act there will always be a war there. The more ""terrorists"" we kill the more recruits Al-Qaeda get and the more soldiers Hezbollah get. With 1000 civilian casualties you have 1000 grieving families and hundreds of potential terrorists. How many did Israel kill? How many more will they have to kill in the future now that they've taken out all these civilians in the process? There are two ways to end this conflict. 1. Kill every Muslim in the Middle East who hates us, and potentially make even more people in the Middle East hate us in the process, meaning we have to kill more and more and more, until we've spent all our money on war and our economy is falling apart.2. Realise what we've done wrong, give back Israel, apoligise and admit the mistakes of the Truman administration and governments since then, compensate the families of those killed with American weaponry, withdraw from all territory in the Middle East, leave the place alone operating only through trade. I'm all for two, what are you for? As for difference of opinion http://time.blogs.com/daily_dish/2006/08/t...ar_for_our.html Yes, ALL religions breed extremists. You don't have to be an extremist to want Israel gone.
AstroProdigy Posted September 1, 2006 Report Posted September 1, 2006 Wiping Israel off the map would be different if Westerners did it because they wouldn't feel the need to commit m!@#$%^&* murders. I think the Arab world is too angry at this point to let them live if they were "wiping Israel off the map". Let me rephrase it so you don't need a translator. The Arab Muslims who stayed in Israel are better off than most of the Arab Muslim world. If they had kept war from occuring in the first place the area would have been a becon of peace and religious toleration for the developing world and especially the Muslim world. However that's the opposite of what happened and that's a travesty. Most Israelis place of origin is Israel. They are second and third generation Israelis. There is nowhere to go back to. You're saying to take a very nationalistic group of people and dispersing them into a number of countries. This isn't a smooth transition you're suggesting. It would be a terrible thing and countries would have to start cracking down on Jews because of this nationalism and here we go again more Jewish persecution. Palestinians were almost at the point where peace could develop with the PLO and then they voted Hamas into power because they're more extreme. That's why I say Palestine wouldn't even be ready. Let's not tell Muslims that extremism is how you get your goals and give more power to extremist organizations who would claim a victory. If you research the Civil War in Lebanon and the Black September in Jordan then you'll see what happens when a diaspora community suddenly influx into another country. You accuse me of theorizing the future, but you yourself have created a neat situation where you're solution is the only one that works and it's the one that involves no problems at all. The Jews in other countries have been there a long time and have transitioned into their respective societies. Not only that, but if they don't like where they are they have an easy option to immigrate to Israel. A sudden influx of Jews would exacerbate the situation. Not only that, but Jews in other countries are becoming rapidly !@#$%^&*imilated and they won't sit idly by if they have no country of their own and are destined to die out. To correct something that happened 60 years ago would only be to cause a new problem and it wouldn't solve the problems in the Middle East either if that's what you're thinking. By the way, there are lots of Jews in the US, but they're leagues smaller than the population of the US as a whole (1/50 the population). It's not even practical. All it would do is make the Jews extreme so we would be stuck with extremist Muslims attacking us and extremist Jews attacking us from within. The west would never support this because it's just gonna cause more problems. There are much deeper reasons for the conflicts in the Middle East than just Israel. Why do you think there are moderate Muslim states that have no problem with Israel? There's a third option: Help most countries in the Muslim world modernize their economic, social, and political spheres. That's what would solve the problems. Help them attain a status comparable to the west and the majority of Muslims will silence their own extremists. The European Union is a great help with this. Look at what Turkey is doing as a result of the European Union. It's opening up it's society for the minorities and making the country generally freer (nor sure if thats the spelling). There's an alternative than Islamic extremism and hopefully one day that's what will win out. (Being dependant on their oil doesn't help.)
candygirl Posted September 1, 2006 Report Posted September 1, 2006 Heres a link ------>Israel’s Roots
Himura Kenshin Posted September 1, 2006 Report Posted September 1, 2006 Heres a link ------>Israel’s Roots 4) God promised the land to the patriarch Abraham. So since God promised them the land their en!@#$%^&*led to it? That is one very bold way to go about getting land dont ya think? If i were to go to your house and say God promised me the place youve been living in your entire life would you just easily give it to me? It is bs that they got the land in the first place. It is all becuase of isreal that the wars now are even happening and becuase the US supports israel that extremists hate them since they setup israel. They stole land from the Peaceful muslims and wonder why they hate them. --masscarnage
AstroProdigy Posted September 2, 2006 Report Posted September 2, 2006 1) They didn't exactly steal the land the Palestinians left (spurred on by their leaders) after the wars to destroy Israel.2) Israel set itself up with help from the United States. Israel isn't a puppet state of the United States it's a close ally.3) Peaceful muslims? Look into how they got the land in the first place. They weren't the original inhabitants but the older inhabitants conventiantly must have wiped themselves out? After World War 2, millions of Germans were forced out of lands formerly part of Germany. That was only 60 years ago just as long as the Palestinians exodus. You see Germany warring with Poland and Poland likewise warring with Belarus? No? And that's with completely seperate ethnic groups with different languages and origins and even religions. Palestinians and Jordanians are practically identical and they cling to these recently manufactured terms of seperate ethnic groups. That of course is the West's fault for drawing these borders.
candygirl Posted September 2, 2006 Report Posted September 2, 2006 Heres a link ------>Israel’s Roots 4) God promised the land to the patriarch Abraham. So since God promised them the land their en!@#$%^&*led to it? That is one very bold way to go about getting land dont ya think? If i were to go to your house and say God promised me the place youve been living in your entire life would you just easily give it to me? It is bs that they got the land in the first place. It is all becuase of isreal that the wars now are even happening and becuase the US supports israel that extremists hate them since they setup israel. They stole land from the Peaceful muslims and wonder why they hate them. --masscarnage Did you read all of it or did you stop on the part ( God promised the land to the patriarch Abraham.)The real owner of the land is Canaanites "but they have disappeared from the face of the earth three millennia ago. so the story goes.
Himura Kenshin Posted September 2, 2006 Report Posted September 2, 2006 http://youtube.com/watch?v=R0yvwnN6EAc george galloway explaining every reason hizballah did what they did its only about 2 minutes long and its pretty good. they are the only reasons hizballah hates israel and if israel just did that there would be peace!
AstroProdigy Posted September 2, 2006 Report Posted September 2, 2006 I don't think Lebanon's claims and Israel's claims are conflicting except for a small area of farms that Syria used to own and Lebanon didn't care when they had it. I've watched george galloway's explanation a few times. It all ends up resting on the Shebaa Farms claim, Israel's past actions and Lebanese prisoners (and sympathy to Palestine is bull!@#$%^&*). Revenge for Israel's past actions is not a forward thinking philosophy, the Shebaa Farms not being owned by Lebanon is only a problem because they're controlled by Israel, although they should give it to Lebanon because it seems to be the "no they haven't withdrawn" argument (although I think this is an excuse), and Lebanese prisoners should be exchanged (although i don't honestly think there are thousands of Lebanese prisoners held by Israel like Galloway says), but this is only with promises from Hezbollah and/or Lebanon to fully recognize Israel's right to exist and respect the borders and refrain from showing rockets at northern Israel. Israel is hesitant to compromise unless they see Lebanon willing to compromise. All Israel wanted from the start was to be recognized and to be secure from other countries. This is how you explain most of their actions. I don't think that Hezbollah could start warfare over and over because they'll only push Israel further away from peace agreements and end up getting a blacklash from the west (the west being part of what holds Israel back from taking it even further). On a last note, doesn't Syria have Lebanese prisoners? I mean they occupied most of Lebanon to a greater degree and longer than Israel occupied the South.
Himura Kenshin Posted September 2, 2006 Report Posted September 2, 2006 the thing is how can it be revenge when it all added up together. they dont want revenge but justice. pretty much weve come to some kind of aggreement now i guess this debate was somewhat progressive.
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