Isreal Sends Troops Into Lebanon

[»Ducky]

There's the right way, and there's the easy way.

 

By the same standards, We here in the states should have never had a cival war and let things go. It would have been a lot less deadlier to civilians.

[sHad0ws]

agreed

[ThunderJam]

Once again...

 

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BOMB THE MIDDLE EAST! PROBLEM SOLVED! WOOOOO!!!

[SVS]

No, I was only pointing out how irrational you are.

 

Good day.

Its not irrational to point out that the extreme of indiscriminate killing would be to drop a nuke on Lebanon. I'm not actually suggesting that should be done. What the !@#$%^&* is your problem anyway? Point out where what i've said is irrational or shut the !@#$%^&* up. You can jump on the bandwagon that other posters have set up for you but if you can't back it up then you're a bigger re!@#$%^&* than they are.

 

.

 

You are right, pointing out an extreme would not by itself be considered asinine but you tried to cloak the irrationality of your opinions by being inflammatory.

 

You ignore facts and just repeat your opinions over... and over... It doesn't matter what the facts are, what international law is, what the UN resolutions ordered, what the general international consensus of an act of war is, YOU DON'T CARE! No matter what facts we present to form our opinions you ignore *everything* and just repeat the same pile of crap we have already heard and when you find you can't do that anymore you just decide to say something completely absurd and inflammatory thinking it will make us forget how idiotic you are.

 

That is why I stopped discussing this with you, this is why no one wants to discuss anything with you. There is no discussion present when you just repeat propaganda like a parrot.

 

SVS

[SeVeR]

No matter what facts we present to form our opinions you ignore *everything*

You mean when Wonderor justified supporting Israel because Hezbollah were "surprised"? When i confronted him about it all he could say is that kidnapping is criminal. Or when Dr Worthless told me that Hezbollah were firing rockets from Beirut? Tell me where the facts are that i've ignored? I've been as thorough as i can be on everyones opinion. Stop seeking to discredit me by telling me i'm ignoring facts, you are following in the foot-steps of people who have shown their ignorance and lack of knowledge of this crisis. You are following people who have shown blatent bias without the proper evidence... and you're telling me i'm ignoring facts?!?! Please, go home, turn off the news and think about what's really going on in the Middle East.

 

It doesn't matter what the facts are, what international law is, what the UN resolutions ordered, what the general international consensus of an act of war is, YOU DON'T CARE!

No, you only seek to interpret the facts in a pro-Zionist fashion. I'm telling you that you're regurgitating what the media is throwing at you. So once again you're attempting to totally dis-credit my opinion for the simple reason that i disagree with you. I only want you to wake up and smell the stench of your hypocrisy, your own total disregard for my opinion shows me that you are in denial. I have carefully analysed all of the facts, another thing you seem to be in dneial about.

 

That is why I stopped discussing this with you, this is why no one wants to discuss anything with you. There is no discussion present when you just repeat propaganda like a parrot.

Actually i gave up posting here a few days ago, you seem adament to continue, which is another reason i'm calling you a complete hypocrite. Please answer this: How is my opinion propogandist? I'm telling you what i think, all the western governments and most of the western media supports your opinion. Yet another reason to consider you a complete.... oh never mind, you're just so full of it.

 

You ignore facts and just repeat your opinions over... and over...

Only because i have to repeat them for each of the 3 or 4 different posters on here who disagree with me. You being one of them.

[»doc flabby]

Regardless of the other politics....

 

From a purely nationalist view, what i dont understand is why lebonen is letting israel bomb the crap outta their country. They have a resposibility to protect their citizens, why is the army not defending the country. If you dont defend your country and citizens you dont deserve independance. Support for hezbolla has grown alot in lebonan, why? because the lebanese government is doing !@#$%^&* all to defend their country.

 

If another country was bombing the crap outta mine i would definatlly be wanting my country to fight back, and to protect its citizens!!!

[SeVeR]

The world (The US + its followers) would consider Lebanons defense of their country an act of terrorism in support of Hezbollah. Another reason is that their meager army of ,000 wouldn't stand a chance; After the war there'd be even more chaos with nothing to stand in Hezbollah's way.

[SVS]

Regardless of the other politics....

 

From a purely nationalist view, what i dont understand is why lebonen is letting israel bomb the crap outta their country. They have a resposibility to protect their citizens, why is the army not defending the country. If you dont defend your country and citizens you dont deserve independance. Support for hezbolla has grown alot in lebonan, why? because the lebanese government is doing !@#$%^&* all to defend their country.

 

If another country was bombing the crap outta mine i would definatlly be wanting my country to fight back, and to protect its citizens!!!

 

Lebanon defending its country would of been disarming Hezballoh. Instead they allowed Hezballoh to grow, become intertwined in the government, and to continue to attack Israel. Inevitably bringing war.

 

Lebanon has failed to protect its citizens from the start (By not acting to prevent full scale conflict between Lebanon and Israel), what makes you think they are in any posistion to do anything now?

 

SVS

[Dr.Worthless]

Or when Dr Worthless told me that Hezbollah were firing rockets from Beirut?

 

Just to clear that up, my response to your "all the way from beruit" comment was

 

I didn't mean to imply that they were firing rockets from Beirut, that was my fault. Beirut is clearly where alot of intelligence/weapons are being held and then being shipped south. Way to completely dodge all the direct questions in the post, and the main point of the paragraph you quoted though.

 

From which you had no response and completely dodged by saying "you don't blow up civilian centers to get at them.. yadda yadda.. blah blah blah..". Last time I checked living in a house with about 100 rockets, even if you have a vagina and or under the age of 10, doesn't exactly make you off limits because you're a civilian. You blame the piece of !@#$%^&* that hides rockets in their families home for the deaths, not Israel.

 

Once you did that it was blatantly apparent that you were more interested in finding nitpicky bull!@#$%^&* to argue about instead of the main issues, so I retired from the thread.

[SeVeR]

"you don't blow up civilian centers to get at them.. yadda yadda.. blah blah blah..". Last time I checked living in a house with about 100 rockets, even if you have a vagina and or under the age of 10, doesn't exactly make you off limits because you're a civilian. You blame the piece of !@#$%^&* that hides rockets in their families home for the deaths, not Israel.

And you're all telling me i'm ignoring facts? Seems to me that Israel blowing up entire city blocks in Beirut is an important fact that you're ignoring or at least dismissing. You seem certain that all these places were housing rockets, but how would Israel know, do they have a camera that can look through walls? All Israel knows is that South Beirut is a place with more Hezbollah support than other areas of the city. You for some reason think you know more than that.

[NBVegita]

Concerning your country being attacked.

 

As sever said they wouldn't stand a chance in an all out war. So if they can pull off being the poor innocent victim, other countries might just jump to their aid. Just one possibility.

[Dr.Worthless]

"you don't blow up civilian centers to get at them.. yadda yadda.. blah blah blah..". Last time I checked living in a house with about 100 rockets, even if you have a vagina and or under the age of 10, doesn't exactly make you off limits because you're a civilian. You blame the piece of !@#$%^&* that hides rockets in their families home for the deaths, not Israel.

And you're all telling me i'm ignoring facts? Seems to me that Israel blowing up entire city blocks in Beirut is an important fact that you're ignoring or at least dismissing. You seem certain that all these places were housing rockets, but how would Israel know, do they have a camera that can look through walls? All Israel knows is that South Beirut is a place with more Hezbollah support than other areas of the city. You for some reason think you know more than that.

 

 

LoL, you're like a cornered cat attacking anyone at will cause he's scared.

 

No where in the above post did I say you're ignoring facts.

 

Do you think Hezbollah are hiding weapons in civilian buildings/areas, in Beirut?

[SeVeR]

Do you think Hezbollah are hiding weapons in civilian buildings/areas, in Beirut?

Yes. I really don't think the whole of South Beirut is an armoury though.

 

No where in the above post did I say you're ignoring facts.

No-where in the above post.

 

LoL, you're like a cornered cat attacking anyone at will cause he's scared.

Scared of what? You?

[Wonderer]

You sure love to twist words and distort facts. I believe Israel is justified because Lebanon is incapable of securing themselves. You can't expect them to sit and wait forever for the government to take care of their own security.

 

The terrorists surprise goes to show their expectations which defines the way they think. The result being that it supports the fact that Israel is forced to take security into their own hands to protect its citizens.

[SeVeR]

You sure love to twist words and distort facts

Enough of these baseless accusations already. Where's the evidence? In my opinion you do exactly the same thing.

 

I believe Israel is justified because Lebanon is incapable of securing themselves.

I agree.

 

The terrorists surprise goes to show their expectations which defines the way they think.

Yes, they expected a prisoner exchange and got a war. This surprised them.... so what exactly does this tell you about "How they think"?

[Dr.Worthless]

Yes. I really don't think the whole of South Beirut is an armoury though.

 

So who's at fault for civilian deaths, the people who hide the weapons in the civilian centers or the people that bomb the civilian center to get after the weapons?

 

No, sending in troops to get the weapons isn't an option, Israel shouldn't be forced to sacrifice their military to disarm a non-lebanese militia in lebanon.

[SeVeR]

So who's at fault for civilian deaths, the people who hide the weapons in the civilian centers or the people that bomb the civilian center to get after the weapons?

Good question. Both are at fault. Its never right to blow up a whole village to get at one terrorist, just like it isn't right for Hezbollah to operate around civilians. However i am also casting doubt over the nature in which Israel have bombed whole city blocks in South Beirut.. Israel must have had intelligence that all those buildings contained rockets or terrorists and i find that hard to believe. There may be terrorist cells operating out of specific buildings in Beirut but a whole region of the city? Bombing that whole area to the ground just seems a little bit indiscriminate don't you think?

 

Israel are forced into the situation of having to take out some civilians by Hezbollah. I still think its wrong to "shoot the hostage" though. I find them more at fault for the indiscriminate destruction in Beirut.

 

Now based on what i've said here, is it so difficult to understand my opinion and see where i'm coming from?

[AstroProdigy]

Hezbollah were surprised by the response because they expected that they could launch rockets at Israel or capture Israeli citizens inside Israel any time they want and Israel would stand idly by and show the world that when you attack Israel you get rewarded. This would not be a problem for any other country.

[Aileron]

People, everyong here should know everyone else's political disposition by now, so limit the name calling.

 

Well, truth be told, if the Lebanese government responded to Israeli aggression, Israel's objectives would be met. If they were to engage the Israeli army, by doing so they would occupy the southern half of their country. All Israel would need to do then is cease hostilities but still keep the forces built up, and suddenly Hezbollah would be sandwhiched betweeen two hostile armies.

 

Lebanon is behaving as if their leadership is being threatened by Hezbollah, mafia style. The last thing Lebanon wants is this type of war, but Hezbollah keeps them in check just enough so that they can't make aggressive moves either way. Hezbollah's actions seems to be devoted to sacrificing Lebanon to their Jihad, which wouldn't make sense unless they are the puppets of Iran.

 

The history of all Israeli conflicts repeats itself though:

 

Israel at internationally sanctioned peace with neighbors.

Terrorist groups attack during peacetime.

Israel gives up on peace and goes after terrorists - International community supports them.

Israel accidentally kills civilians - International community calls for ceasefire.

International community installs a premature ceasefire that doesn't deal with the undlying causes of terrorism.

repeat

 

Now the underlying cause is Iran, so any true peace plan would deal with Iran first and foremost. Terrorist groups are small and can dissolve and reform elsewhere in a matter of months, so chasing them is typically an excersise in futility. Syria is also not a real problem because terrorist groups are so easy to supply that one does not need a land bridge to finance them. The reapeated problem opposing peace here is that the international community typically is unwilling to deal with rogue sovereign nations and is far more willing to attack terrorist groups who are much easier political targets.

 

The current conflict could hypothetically have been prevented if the US went into Iran rather than Iraq. The foreign policy shown by the administration was to identify nations which were and are a danger to the international community due to the inevitability of globalization, namely Iraq, Iran, and North Korea. These nations were always violent and xenophobic, but pre-globalization they didn't have the technology to affect anyone other than their closest neighbors. Then, the policy is to dismantle those regimes one by one. The next step was to randomly pick one. Of the three Bush chose the easiest political target to deal with first, figuring he would get much more domestic and international support going against Iraq rather than the others. In 20/20 hindsight, it might have been better for Bush to go into Iran first.

[SeVeR]

So what you propose be done about Iran now?

 

I don't think America has the man-power, the public support, or most importantly the economic balls to do it. We all know what Iran can hang over the heads of the West: oil supply/prices.

 

Iran are probably supporting Hezbollah but is that wrong? I don't admire Hezbollah's methods but their cause in my opinion is just, as is the Palestinians. They go about it the wrong way, but thats what we'd expect from a people centuries behind us in social development.

[Drake7707]

It's like 2 kids fighting because one challenged the other one, and the latter is left with 2 choices, run and cry or beat the crap out of him.

 

Israel chose the latter, as an example for the rest of "potential" enemies.

 

So 2 possibilities to stop this: either one gets knocked out, or someone has to intervene.

 

But those that want to intervene don't want to cut in their own flesh, now do they ?

 

This is the exact same situation in a nuts!@#$%^&*. After a while they just blame each other, and having a discussion whether which cause of which party was just is irrelevant.

 

Btw dirty tricks such as making civilian casualties isn't only restricted to middle-east.

The US did the exact same thing on Japan. So if terrorists are seen as ppl that want to create chaos by killing civilians, then you could deduct that US is the biggest terrorist of all countries.

[AstroProdigy]

HEZBOLLAH HAS NO CAUSE! Israel LEFT Lebanon six years ago. There's no reason for Hezbollah to attack Israel. HAMAS has a cause. HEZBLLAH WANTS POWER! Newsflash...Iran's cause is POWER. They're interfering in order to show that they have influence. There is no just cause or difficult situation like with the Palestinians. Hezbolla has no right to attack Israel and they caused the present situation themselves. There are no excuses. Revenge isn't an excuse. There's nothing for Lebanon to gain from any of this. Hezbollah is a terrorist organization just like Al Qaeda. I can understand all of the problems that Palestinian organizations have with Israel but Hezbolla is a Shiite Lebanese organization with no real loss to the creation of Israel. The question is if Israel's response was disproportionate. There is no question, except maybe in the Muslim world if Hezbolla was just in what they did.

[Aileron]

Well, its war, so "proportionate" isn't really a viable term. Either a nation is at war or it isn't.

 

As for what we do now, we stick to the plan. We finish off whatever is left in Iraq and then we deal with Iran or North Korea. (If Iran is next, we won't pull out troops from Iraq to home, but rather use Iraq as a staging area, so it would appear as if we were going into Iran before solving all the problems in Iraq.)

 

We would likely open up the oil reserves while going into Iran, so oil won't ultimately be the deciding factor. The problem with Iran is first off they have a good air force (versus Iraq that had a penchant for oversized ineffective artillery), so it won't be easy. However, the major problem is that virtually the entire civilian populace has pledged themselves and suicide bombers, making occupation near impossible.

 

 

Its very similar to the situation in Japan at the end of WWII, so massive conventional bombing would work. The atomic bombings' goal was not to terrorise, but rather to de-fanaticise. When a population develops a death culture in which death is glorified, showing them what death looks like in real life can take them out of the euphoria. This solution should clearly be saved until everything else is tried though.

 

What I'd suggest is that either the US or the international community forcibly dismantle Al-Jazeera and replace it with translated versions of western media companies. If it meant preventing a war I'd say imposing some "propaganda" would be a much lesser of two evils.

 

 

 

 

Really though, there are certain things the UN needs to do though:

 

1) Create an international definition of "terrorist" and outline punishment procedures. Since terrorists are worse than spies, I'd recommend a capital charge, though I'd also point out that a terrorist is a terrorist based upon what they do, not the organization they belong to. Barring the deaths on the planes themselves, I'd say of the Sept 11th pilots those that flew into the Pentagon were spies, those that would have attacked the White House would-be !@#$%^&*!@#$%^&*ins, and only those who flew into the World Trade Center are actuall terrorrists.

2) Come up with a better stick than "economic sanctions". The nations that get them are already poor and isolated, so its not much of a loss. Furthermore we typically can't stomach the populace of these countries set further into poverty, so we then turn around and send them humanitarian aide witch counteracts the effects of the sanctions.

3) Recognize situations where nations are supporting peace with rogue states for economic gain.

[AstroProdigy]

A pretty extreme approach to the problem...lets not nuke or carpet bomb Iran k? Also, I don't think Iraqis would like feeling like a staging area for US political expansion.

 

I don't think muslim people would appreciate having some of their media forcibly dismantled and replaced with puppet media...this types suggestion falls along the lines of the actions of the really horrible regimes in history. Calling for immoral actions as the lesser of two evils would be crossing a dangerous line.

[SeVeR]

HEZBOLLAH HAS NO CAUSE! Israel LEFT Lebanon six years ago. There's no reason for Hezbollah to attack Israel. HAMAS has a cause. HEZBLLAH WANTS POWER!

You realise that the protection of Lebanon is not the only goal of Hezbollah. Almost everyone agrees that Iran is in cahoots with Hezbollah and you know exactly what Iran's position on Israel is. So of course Hezbollah has a cause.

 

Well, its war, so "proportionate" isn't really a viable term. Either a nation is at war or it isn't.

You wouldn't nuke a country because one terrorist organisation within its borders decided to kidnap a couple of soldiers. So proportionate should always be a viable term... especially when you're not actually at war with the Lebanese people.

 

We would likely open up the oil reserves while going into Iran, so oil won't ultimately be the deciding factor.

I think Iran would destroy their oil fields or at least the refinerys/extraction plants.

 

However, the major problem is that virtually the entire civilian populace has pledged themselves and suicide bombers, making occupation near impossible.

Not true, Iran is quite well split between extremism and normality. A large percentage of the youth are actually quite liberal.

 

The problem you'd face after an invasion is keeping control. The US would have no way of controlling Iran and you'd likely end up with a similar situation a decade after an invasion. By then you'd likely have an even larger percentage of the population hating America's guts and the prospect of ever being at peace/understanding would be near impossible. Sure you may get rid of some of their weapons and weaken them militarily but the underlying problem would only be made worse. We're not at war with a whole country and thats the problem. We're at war with the people who hate us in these countries and i believe its a problem that will only go away when we stop our unconditional support for Israel... it might not even go away then since America is reponsible for Israel's creation.

 

1) Create an international definition of "terrorist" and outline punishment procedures.

Finally we agree, but i guess for different reaosns. I only want Bush to stop describing everyone he dislikes as terrorists. He only does that to tap into the anger resulting from 9/11 to sway public opinion. The word terrorist has become a desciption of someone who is absolute evil... and Bush is throwing that word around too much. I've even noticed the Israeli's using the word in almost every statement they make. Hezbollah firing rockets at the people who are attacking them does not make them terrorists. Initializing this aggression by killing some Israeli troops and taking two prisoners does not make them terrorists either.