Iran

[SeVeR]

What does everyone think about the latest story to do with Iran:

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5034228.stm

 

Does anyone else see straight through the US's attempt to make Iran look like the bad guy when Iran will undoubtedly reject this offer for diplomacy. Why do "talks" require the suspension of enrichment? Once Iran rejects this is will open to door to US military action because they'll be able to justify it by saying "they didn't want to talk this out with us so we only have the military option left"

 

US Foreign Policy is dispicable.

[quickspy]

All diplomacy requires concessions. Countries declare cease-fires all the time before diplomatic talks begin. It really isn't that big of a request for Iran. The only reason it's that big of a deal is because it's the US asking for it.

 

In my opinion Iran foreign policy is even worst. They just feed on the world's anti-american feelings for their own agenda. They have no clear/reasonable plan to solve this crisis.

[SeVeR]

I don't think Iran needs to concede anything to enter discussions. Consessions are part of agreements once the talking is done, they shouldn't be a requirement for diplomacy.

[quickspy]

I don't think Iran needs to concede anything to enter discussions. Consessions are part of agreements once the talking is done, they shouldn't be a requirement for diplomacy.

 

Again its not common to see concessions before a discussion. Use the African conflicts as a example, before they ever they talk about peace they always ask for some kind of cease-fire from either side. If no cease-fire is called fighting will continue.

 

Iran claims that they want to use nuclear power to make the lives of Iranians better. But instead of being transparent through out this whole situation they reject the IAEA. Then President Ahmadinejad sends a letter to Bush to make this whole situation look more political. Iran is just trying get more political power, not make Iranian lives better. Its clear because none of the current situation would lead to better lives for Iranian civilians. If Iran wants to make the lives of Iranians better it would be intelligent to suspend the enrichment and enter talks with the US.

[SeVeR]

Again its not common to see concessions before a discussion. Use the African conflicts as a example, before they ever they talk about peace they always ask for some kind of cease-fire from either side. If no cease-fire is called fighting will continue.

A cease-fire requires concessions from both sides prior to diplomacy. What is the US doing? Also lets be clear that Iran isn't killing anyone, they're not committing any sort of crime, and they are perfectly justified in wanting to develop nuclear power for their country.

 

But instead of being transparent through out this whole situation they reject the IAEA.

I thought they let the IAEA into their country to check whether the process was still going on. No one has the right to tell Iran they can't develop their own nuclear power. If the IAEA said that then they're just another tool that Bush has at his disposal.

 

Then President Ahmadinejad sends a letter to Bush to make this whole situation look more political.

I think alot of people would have done the same thing, i don't see anything wrong with outlining the crimes of the Bush administration. If Bush wanted to argue any of this he would have replied.

 

Iran is just trying get more political power

What exactly is your evidence for saying this? America wanted to push them around and Iran is doing everything they should do to not let that happen. How are they getting "more political power"?

 

Its clear because none of the current situation would lead to better lives for Iranian civilians.

And who's fault is that? Iran originally set out to develop nuclear power which would give their people better lives. That is still their objective and they shouldn't have to suspend that because the US wants otherwise. Are you telling me that the resisitance to US threats is evidence that Iran doesn't want what is best for its people?

 

If Iran wants to make the lives of Iranians better it would be intelligent to suspend the enrichment and enter talks with the US.

If the US wants to enter talks with Iran then they shouldn't demand a change in Iran's internal affairs!

[candygirl]

Does anyone else see straight through the US's attempt to make Iran look like the bad guy

 

US thinks everyone is the bad guy. There right and everyone els is wrong. pfft ya right

[Aileron]

People seem to set the US to one standard and despotic nations to another lower standard. For instance, when a US soldier lets a dog get close to a prisoner, that's considered an international incident of prisoner abuse. However, when an insurgent slices off a civilian prisoner's head with a dull machete, that's somehow not considered cruel.

 

Iran is one of those nations that everyone expects little of. They can threaten to wipe Israel "off the map" and launch missile strikes on Kurdish sections of Iraq annually, actions that the international community would not let the US get away with, but because people have gotten so used to the idea that Iran is a despotic nation their expectations for Iran is so low that they consider such actions acceptible.

 

I mean, you hate it when the Ten Commandments is posted on a courthouse because it violates separation between Church and State (that's not actually a law, but...) Iran on the other hand is a complete theocracy, with neither a Church nor a State but with a corrupt conglameration of the two.

 

Just a couple weeks ago Iraqi civilians pledged themselves en masse to be suicide bombers for the Jihadist cause. The only deterrent to nuclear war thus far has been the fact that nations strong enough to have nukes needed societies advanced enough to not want to die in the cause of hatred. Basically, they would rather let the other guy survive so that they could themselves live rather than get everyone killed. Iran isn't like that. If it were up to the civilians alone, they would rather have everyone dead. If Iran had nukes, they would use them.

 

I know its hard to believe since the Middle East has been a haven for so many despots for so long, but things don't have to be this way. We don't have to accept Iran as a despotic nation, and as a matter of fact in our modern world with our modern weapons, we cannot afford to. We can bring about change. Doing so would be long and difficult, because we have a long history of despots in the area. However, when it is over, the gains, a world nearly completely free of despotism, in which every citizen of humanity doesn't have to live under the thumb of some dictator, is worth the price.

 

I don't think the US is going to do this one alone however. Most of Europe is beginning to understand what the War on Terror is about, that while the fight will be long and the cost is high, the free world really has no choice in the matter.

[AstroProdigy]

The problem in Iraq is we need a much larger contingent of troops to keep order. How do you expect with our troops already in Iraq and Afghanistan, Bush's plans to send m!@#$%^&* numbers of soldiers around the border with Mexico, the standard requirement to have enough soldiers to protect our country from invasion, and the requirement to send troops in case of another hurricane disaster to have enough troops to be sent to Iran? Iran is quite larger than Iraq is as well. We would probably need an occupation force of at least a million.

 

I don't think the Europeans, even with a united support of the United States, have enough manpower for this task and we have two options. Russia and China have plenty of troops to help us if we can win them over OR we would need to reinstate the draft.

[quickspy]

Iran rejected some requests to fully check there nuclear program. Similar to the situation where Iraq did not allow UN inspectors full acecess.

[ThunderJam]

Sever, just out of curiosity, where do you live?

 

If you live in America and have these opinions, then i gotta give u props for standing up against this !@#$%^&*.

If you live in Europe somewhere... then your just like a million of others that bash us.

[SeVeR]

I'm been living in America for the past four months since this all started. Originally i'm from England though. In this country its much easier to see straight through the propaganda on the news, especially when they say things like "stop them getting nuclear weapons" as if there's any proof they want them. Half the US probably thinks Iran wants nukes because of the news.

 

If you live in Europe somewhere... then your just like a million of others that bash us.

I just dislike the government and the media, America is one of the best countries in the world to live in.

[Dr.Worthless]

I'm been living in America for the past four months since this all started. Originally i'm from England though. In this country its much easier to see straight through the propaganda on the news, especially when they say things like "stop them getting nuclear weapons" as if there's any proof they want them. Half the US probably thinks Iran wants nukes because of the news.

 

If you live in Europe somewhere... then your just like a million of others that bash us.

I just dislike the government and the media, America is one of the best countries in the world to live in.

 

 

To be fair, a country that calls for another country to be completely wiped off the map, we're not talking about removing the government, or putting sanctions on them, but killing every last one of its inhabitants. Who's sitting on huge supplies of oil, has sunshiney days up the wazoo, and I'm sure their fair share of wind, claims it needs an energy source, I think there's reason to be atleast just a tad bit suspicious, don't you?

 

When a nation who claims they want nuclear energy for peaceful purposes, then gets offered all the technology they'd need, as long as they relinquished the waste to a neighboring nation (Russia), but refuses.

 

When a nation who, could negotiate for nuclear energy, but then throws a big !@#$%^&* you to the internation community.

 

Are you still so quick to jump on the "OMG AMERICA IS EVIL" train, or is all the above just useless propaganda also? .......

[SeVeR]

To be fair, a country that calls for another country to be completely wiped off the map, we're not talking about removing the government, or putting sanctions on them, but killing every last one of its inhabitants.

Did they say kill? I don't think so, they want the destruction of Israel just like America wanted the destruction of Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan. They want Israel gone, if you construe that as killing everyone in a mad bombing spree through some stereotypical, media-driven view that any anti-Israel comments are from islamic extremists then you've 'been' misguided. I want Israel gone, if I was a Muslim i bet you'd be calling me a murderer too.

 

Who's sitting on huge supplies of oil, has sunshiney days up the wazoo, and I'm sure their fair share of wind, claims it needs an energy source, I think there's reason to be atleast just a tad bit suspicious, don't you?

Building solar or wind power plants are too expensive at the moment and they generate a tiny amount of power. (I have no idea what made you think Iran has alot of wind).

 

They have a huge oil supply but they rely on selling most of that. It is by far their biggest export and when it runs out they're pretty much screwed for money and energy. By building nuclear power plants they can increase their exports and have a better future when things run out.

 

When a nation who claims they want nuclear energy for peaceful purposes, then gets offered all the technology they'd need, as long as they relinquished the waste to a neighboring nation (Russia), but refuses.

I can't blame them for not wanting other countries to interfere. I don't think its reason to suspect they want to nukes.

 

When a nation who, could negotiate for nuclear energy, but then throws a big !@#$%^&* you to the internation community.

What? They're negotiating, they just throw a big !@#$%^&* you to America when America criminalizes them to the world and pressurises them to stop their perfectly legal development of nuclear power.

 

Are you still so quick to jump on the "OMG AMERICA IS EVIL" train, or is all the above just useless propaganda also? .......

I got to tell you, it was a convincing post but then i remembered Iran is not doing anything wrong. America's price for diplomacy and their "threats" of military action and sanctions are the closest things to criminal in this conflict of interests.

[Dr.Worthless]

Did they say kill? I don't think so, they want the destruction of Israel just like America wanted the destruction of Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan. They want Israel gone, if you construe that as killing everyone in a mad bombing spree through some stereotypical, media-driven view that any anti-Israel comments are from islamic extremists then you've 'been' misguided. I want Israel gone, if I was a Muslim i bet you'd be calling me a murderer too.

 

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/15E...3CE0E9957EA.htm

"The establishment of the Zionist regime was a move by the world oppressor against the Islamic world," the president told a conference in Tehran on Wednesday, en!@#$%^&*led The World without Zionism.

 

"The skirmishes in the occupied land are part of a war of destiny. The outcome of hundreds of years of war will be defined in Palestinian land," he said.

 

"As the Imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map," said Ahmadinejad, referring to Iran's revolutionary leader Ayat Allah Khomeini.

 

The modest but unprecedented steps were seen as a response to Israel's withdrawal from the Gaza Strip in September. Nevertheless, Ahmadinejad said, "There is no doubt that the new wave (of attacks) in Palestine will soon wipe off this disgraceful blot (Israel) from the face of the Islamic world."

You're right, he never said the word "kill".. he did said wiped off the map. Where I come from, if a creature walks on four legs, has fur, a mouth full of teeth, and barks really loud, I don't assume that it won't bite me. Wanting Israel to not exist is one thing, would it not be more effective to say "Our qualm is with the government of Israel, not the jewish people", instead of going on tirades about how the holocaust never happened, etc etc etc?

 

Building solar or wind power plants are too expensive at the moment and they generate a tiny amount of power. (I have no idea what made you think Iran has alot of wind).

 

Oh, I don't know, maybe the fact that their in the middle of a god !@#$%^&* desert? Not to much to inhibit wind flow.

 

They have a huge oil supply but they rely on selling most of that. It is by far their biggest export and when it runs out they're pretty much screwed for money and energy. By building nuclear power plants they can increase their exports and have a better future when things run out.

This is legitimate.

 

I can't blame them for not wanting other countries to interfere. I don't think its reason to suspect they want to nukes.

 

I blame them for not wanting to be a member of the international community.

 

What? They're negotiating, they just throw a big !@#$%^&* you to America when America criminalizes them to the world and pressurises them to stop their perfectly legal development of nuclear power.

http://washingtontimes.com/world/20060412-120755-1280r.htm

 

This is a U.N matter, the U.N is telling them to stop, not just America. Is everything the United States fault in your eyes? Did the U.S force Iran to remove U.N seals on their nuclear materials, and defy U.N resolutions?

(Incase you your partisanship meter is going off the !@#$%^&*ing hook trying to figure that answer out, here's a hint.. Nope)

 

I got to tell you, it was a convincing post but then i remembered Iran is not doing anything wrong. America's price for diplomacy and their "threats" of military action and sanctions are the closest things to criminal in this conflict of interests.

 

I do believe the closest thing to criminal is, well, the actual act of Iran throwing the bird to the U.N.

 

(Please don't go down the "OMG BUT THE US DEFIED THE U.N TOO" I'll cry like a child.)

[SeVeR]

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/15E...3CE0E9957EA.htm

Again, where does it say kill? I want Israel wiped off the map, i want the elimination of the Zionist regime, but i don't want to kill tens of millions of jews in cold blood!

 

You are reading one thing and thinking another. It really doesn't surprise me though since this is exactly the kind of thing the media is encouraging.

 

You're right, he never said the word "kill".. he did said wiped off the map.

I want Israel wiped off the map too.

 

would it not be more effective to say "Our qualm is with the government of Israel, not the jewish people", instead of going on tirades about how the holocaust never happened, etc etc etc?

No it wouldn't because the people support the government and want Israel to exist. Iran is doing nothing more than stating that the creation of Israel was an illegal and inhumane act and that it needs to be corrected. They need to be wiped off the map, and the Zionist regime needs to be kicked out because they shouldn't be there.

 

Oh, I don't know, maybe the fact that their in the middle of a god !@#$%^&* desert? Not to much to inhibit wind flow.

Wind-power is not efficient enough, its not cost-effective and all that "sand" would get in the turbines . Did you know % of France's energy comes from nuclear power stations? That's how effective the nuclear option can be.

 

I blame them for not wanting to be a member of the international community.

You've got to think from their perspective though, Iran see's a community dominated by the USA -- the country largely responsible for the creation of Israel.

 

This is a U.N matter, the U.N is telling them to stop, not just America. Is everything the United States fault in your eyes?

Firstly China and Russia are not in agreement with the US so its not the "UN". Secondly its only the Europeans who are helping the US and the US is the only country threatening Iran with sanctions and military action. The Europeans may come to agree with sanctions in the end (if they haven't already) but it would only be to appease the US.

 

Did the U.S force Iran to remove U.N seals on their nuclear materials, and defy U.N resolutions?

Iran has a right to not let the US push them around. They have a right to nuclear power. If the US is going to use its international power to stop that happening then they're the criminals.

 

well, the actual act of Iran throwing the bird to the U.N.

Iran see's the UN as a puppet for the US and why shouldn't they? Israel got created "through the UN". The fact that China and Russia don't agree with the US fits perfectly because it shows how countries that don't suck up to the US get behind the side that isn't doing anything illegal.

 

The US's case would not hold up in a court of law. All they have is suspicion and prejudice. Iran on the other hand would have a good case against the US for har!@#$%^&*ment.

[Dr.Worthless]

Again, where does it say kill? I want Israel wiped off the map, i want the elimination of the Zionist regime, but i don't want to kill tens of millions of jews in cold blood!

 

You are reading one thing and thinking another. It really doesn't surprise me though since this is exactly the kind of thing the media is encouraging.

I want Israel wiped off the map too.

No it wouldn't because the people support the government and want Israel to exist. Iran is doing nothing more than stating that the creation of Israel was an illegal and inhumane act and that it needs to be corrected. They need to be wiped off the map, and the Zionist regime needs to be kicked out because they shouldn't be there.

 

You said it yourself, in order to wipe Israel off you'd have to take care of the people also, they support the government and want Israel to exist. You're being purposefully ignorant when you say "he didn't say kill, he just said wipe off the map". How the !@#$%^&* do you wipe a country off the map without killing a large portion of its inhabitants? You know !@#$%^&* well that in order for Israel to be wiped off the map it would take a considerable military engagement, or a nice bomb to take out Jerusalem in one hit.

 

Wind-power is not efficient enough, its not cost-effective and all that "sand" would get in the turbines . Did you know % of France's energy comes from nuclear power stations? That's how effective the nuclear option can be.

If they can develop nuclear technology I'm sure they could engineer a turbine thats sand resistant....

 

You've got to think from their perspective though, Iran see's a community dominated by the USA -- the country largely responsible for the creation of Israel.

 

Ok, and?

 

Firstly China and Russia are not in agreement with the US so its not the "UN". Secondly its only the Europeans who are helping the US and the US is the only country threatening Iran with sanctions and military action. The Europeans may come to agree with sanctions in the end (if they haven't already) but it would only be to appease the US.

Might want to research alittle bit more before you peg this strictcly on the U.S. Start with wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_and_weap...p;*_destruction (The !@#$%^&*le isn't the best, but it talks about Iran's nuclear program.)

 

Specifically.

 

On 6 August, 2005, Iran rejected a 34 page European Union proposal intended to help Iran build "a safe, economically viable and proliferation-proof civil nuclear power generation and research programme.” The Europeans, with US agreement, intended to entice Iran into a binding commitment not to build atomic arms by offering to provide fuel and other long-term support that would facilitate electricity generation with nuclear energy. Iranian Foreign Ministry spokesman Hamid Reza Asefi rejected the proposal saying, "We had already announced that any plan has to recognise Iran’s right to enrich uranium".[15]

 

Iran see's the UN as a puppet for the US and why shouldn't they? Israel got created "through the UN". The fact that China and Russia don't agree with the US fits perfectly because it shows how countries that don't suck up to the US get behind the side that isn't doing anything illegal.

Yet another instance where Iran's completely wrong then, right?

[SeVeR]

"Iran see's the UN as a puppet for the US and why shouldn't they? Israel got created "through the UN". The fact that China and Russia don't agree with the US fits perfectly because it shows how countries that don't suck up to the US get behind the side that isn't doing anything illegal."

 

 

Yet another instance where Iran's completely wrong then, right?

I think alot of people would see the UN as a puppet for the US, i would. Israel is a creation of US dominance over the UN.

 

On 6 August, 2005, Iran rejected a 34 page European Union proposal intended to help Iran build "a safe, economically viable and proliferation-proof civil nuclear power generation and research programme.” The Europeans, with US agreement, intended to entice Iran into a binding commitment not to build atomic arms by offering to provide fuel and other long-term support that would facilitate electricity generation with nuclear energy. Iranian Foreign Ministry spokesman Hamid Reza Asefi rejected the proposal saying, "We had already announced that any plan has to recognise Iran’s right to enrich uranium".

How does this make Iran wrong? Iran has a right to enrich uranium, accepting anything to the contrary accepts that the US and a select group of Europeans are right to make them do otherwise.

 

You said it yourself, in order to wipe Israel off you'd have to take care of the people also, they support the government and want Israel to exist. You're being purposefully ignorant when you say "he didn't say kill, he just said wipe off the map". How the !@#$%^&* do you wipe a country off the map without killing a large portion of its inhabitants? You know !@#$%^&* well that in order for Israel to be wiped off the map it would take a considerable military engagement, or a nice bomb to take out Jerusalem in one hit.

The president of Iran hasn't said anything i haven't already said, none of it makes me a killer, so why would it make him a killer?

 

I would do everything i can to get the international community to recognise the crimes of the US and Israel to grab land from Muslims. I would wipe Israel off the map in the same way Palestine was wiped off the map.

[Greased_Lightning]

Hitler never said in a speech "Let's round up all the Jews, gypsies, and other undesirable peoples, force them to work for our purposes while feeding them a starvation ration. Then, when they are too weak to work, lets ship them in cattle cars to a camp where we will shave them bald, strip them down, and gas them while they think they're taking a shower. Then, we'll pull out their gold teeth and burn the bodies. All in the name of the Fatherland." I don't think he even ever said in a public speech "lets kill all these jews".

 

The United States has a long standing policy of supporting democratically elected governments and it should not be surprising that the US would support Israel over Iran on that basis alone. Include in that the past bad blood between Iran and the US in the past compared to the cooperation that Israel and the US have enjoyed both economically, militarily, and socially.

 

Unlike Israel, however, Iran IS a signatory of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. Meaning it is prohibited from development of nuclear arms. The Supreme Leader of Iran has himself forbid the production, stockpiling and use of nuclear weapons. Yes, Iran is within its rights to enrich uranium, however it is not within its rights to use that toward the development of a nuclear weapon (all they have to do is give 3 months notice ... that's stupid).

 

I may be biased, but I would trust Israel a !@#$%^&* of a lot farther then I do Iran. When one nation talks about wiping another off the map, call me crazy, but that sets off a little alarm in my head. It's not like the President of Iran has to worry about votes from the people. This isn't to say that I agree with Israel's policies vis a vis Palestine. Israel needs to make some concession cuz they've royally fked up again and again. However, wiping Israel off the map (even if only geopolitically) is not a viable solution. It'd be like erasing the US because the Native Americans were here first. It's just not feasible.

 

Anyhoo, I'm a lot less worried about the Iran/US/Israel thing than I am about North Korea or China. Them's ASSS is crazy.

[Tex]

If we invade Iran, I am moving to Spain.

[quickspy]

If we invade Iran, I am moving to Spain.

 

Go for it we have plenty of immigrants that will replace you =)

[LearJett+]

Sorry I haven't been here in a while.

 

 

 

The problem in Iraq is we need a much larger contingent of troops to keep order.

I'm sure you argue for troop withdrawal, too.

 

 

How do you expect with our troops already in Iraq and Afghanistan, Bush's plans to send m!@#$%^&* numbers of soldiers around the border with Mexico, the standard requirement to have enough soldiers to protect our country from invasion, and the requirement to send troops in case of another hurricane disaster to have enough troops to be sent to Iran?quote]

Bush sent 9,000 national guard troops to the border which is 3% of the available national guard troops in the United States. There is no chance of use running short of troops.

 

 

 

Sever, have you seen the sattelite pictures of nuclear research buildings and bases that were mysteriously leveled whenever Iran finally did let nuclear inspectors in years ago? It's obvious that something shady is going on... I'm interested to see it play out.

[AstroProdigy]

Haha no we don't even have the ability to withdraw troops. The only way to withdraw troops would be to wait for large amounts of Iraqi soldiers trained and/or get international support. Also, sorry bad source on national guard numbers sent to the border with Mexico.

[Aileron]

Pfft...national guard troops is a short term solution, and an improvement on ~no~ solution. That's what I hate about politicians. Other than Bush they have a tendancy to do nothing, because when they do something their policies are criticised.

[kill]

Yeah well mostly all the irans are suicide bombers so lol just let them bomb themselves off the face of the earth

[Yoink]

Pfft...national guard troops is a short term solution, and an improvement on ~no~ solution. That's what I hate about politicians. Other than Bush they have a tendancy to do nothing, because when they do something their policies are criticised.

I think I'd rather have an inactive government than one that constantly makes poor decisions.