»SOS Posted January 5, 2006 Report Posted January 5, 2006 (edited) First, the discussion from chat (some emphasis on points that seem important-ish): C 7:bossboy!> can we make freq hopping illegalC 7:SOS> why?C 7:teh kickzor> people hopping onto winning freq last secondC 7:SOS> well... I can make a bot disable freq hopping...C 7:bossboy!> no, cause sometimes ppl wanna shareC 7:bossboy!> just make it a kickable offenceC 7:bossboy!> cause lifelies loves to do it.C 7:teh kickzor> well-put.C 7:SOS> hmmC 7:bossboy!> whenever the flags switch teams...C 7:teh kickzor> first warning = 5 min kickC 7:bossboy!> like another team gets it...he switches to themC 7:teh kickzor> after that, 30 minsC 7:teh kickzor> LOLC 7:teh kickzor> or simply a dayC 7:teh kickzor> but banning is a bad way..people won't come backC 7:bossboy!> arena msg warning, then a kick, then a ban? C 7:bossboy!> nothing too major/C 7:teh kickzor> or just *warn msgC 7:bossboy!> after two warnings, they dont deserve to come back.C 7:bossboy!> ya, arena msg, or a *warnC 7:SOS> Why shouldn't he be allowed to freqhop? Does him winning really do anything so bad for the others?C 7:teh kickzor> no..that's against the pointC 7:teh kickzor> HIS team did not winC 7:teh kickzor> the OTHER team didC 7:teh kickzor> having said that, it's no longer HIS pointsC 7:teh kickzor> it's the OTHER teams pointC 7:teh kickzor> basically, he's stealing C 7:SOS> so? do the points really matter that much? it's the action that's fun, not the pointsC 7:teh kickzor> agreed.C 7:bossboy!> trust me, its the pointsC 7:bossboy!> it was the way before.C 7:teh kickzor> but it's !@#$%^&*a annoying.C 7:bossboy!> that was one of the old rules!C 7:bossboy!> and it pisses me off when they do it!C 7:teh kickzor> plus, it can make teams unbalanced...7-4, etc etcC 7:SOS> What if the unbalancing factor would be out?C 7:teh kickzor> then i'm fine with it.C 7:teh kickzor> although still !@#$%^&*a annoyingC 7:bossboy!> im still notC 7:teh kickzor> like, lifeless is a prime exampleC 7:bossboy!> ill explain when im not playingC 7:SOS> k C 7:teh kickzor> teams are 6-5, and he's on the 5 player teamC 7:teh kickzor> he joins the other one cause he loses flagsC 7:teh kickzor> 7-4C 7:teh kickzor> he does it all the timeC 7:bossboy!> ok here is my beaf.C 7:bossboy!> 1...it was a previous rule EVERY time we had deva open.C 7:teh kickzor> see, C 7:bossboy!> 2...its cheap.C 7:teh kickzor> shadowmatt JUST did it.C 7:bossboy!> 3... it unbalances teams for the most part. unless u are moving teams to even them. he does it blatently and admits itC 7:bossboy!> usually it was classified as just to get the win. so even if we left it at that.C 7:bossboy!> so if u freq hopped to get the jackpot. and yes, the jackpot points are important. they are to me, and whoever else flags. cause it adds a fun factor.C 7:teh kickzor> COMPE!@#$%^&*ION.C 7:bossboy!> so its practically cheating.C 7:teh kickzor> key factor here.C 7:bossboy!> compe!@#$%^&*ion adds fun. adds...more playability to the game.C 7:bossboy!> thats my own opinion, but i am sticking to it. I believe that freq hopping should be illegal, a warn, arena msg, and at WORST CASE, a kick/lockspec>if they do it too much.C 7:XDOOM> freq hopping is not illegal if private freqs eixstsC 7:XDOOM> if we make hte zone pub onlyC 7:teh kickzor> none exist.C 7:teh kickzor> IF.C 7:bossboy!> last nite, none existed till the end when u and bite went priv. C 7:bossboy!> we were sitting on pubs.C 7:XDOOM> but they are availableC 7:bossboy!> so?C 7:XDOOM> we can always make the zone pub only ...C 7:bossboy!> no.C 7:teh kickzor> doesn't mean i was flaggingC 7:teh kickzor> and i don't like pub onlyC 7:bossboy!> it doesnt matter. we were on pub freqs.C 7:teh kickzor> thereforeC 7:bossboy!> in an OBVIOUS flagging gameC 7:XDOOM> hmm, maybe SOS cna do something with the bot thenC 7:XDOOM> to prevent hoppersC 7:teh kickzor> still shouldn't be allowedC 7:bossboy!> no need for bot. thats what MODERATORS ARE FOR!C 7:bossboy!> to spot and warn.C 7:bossboy!> a warn / arena msg is all it takes really. Anyway, my thoughts are that if we make freqhopping illegal some people will leave (one or two at the moment but that's a big number for Deva...). That's the major concern. A drop in the sea is !@#$%^&* big if the sea is so small... Of course it cannot be denied that most people are in it for the points, even though the actual fun is in the fighting. And it does aggravate people if someone else !@#$%^&*es their points away. And there is also the issue of balanced teams... in a smaller game, freqhoppers can distory the balance badly. I'm not really sure what to do... on one hand, it can drive people away to disallow it, but on the other hand it might drive people away to allow it (less likely, though). And of course the unbalancing and all that... Hrm... perhaps we should indeed disallow it... and make the bot just record who changes freq when music is on so there are no false accusations (of course what if they do it right before the music...). Talk to me. Edited January 5, 2006 by SOS
kick me!! Posted January 5, 2006 Report Posted January 5, 2006 I still stand by my word. Although, it shouldn't be a huge offense...Should NOT deserve a ban. Only a kick or spec or something like that, nothing major, or minor. Something minimal. Agree?
tm_master Posted January 6, 2006 Report Posted January 6, 2006 (edited) Well, if you want to know what I think, with my experience in big Deva flag games... Make it Pub-Only and autobalance teams with the bot (i.e. freq 0 and freq 1 or more depending on the amount of people that ac!@#$%^&*ulate, although I honestly don't think we'll get more than 20, so 10 vs. 10 would be perfect). That's the ONLY way I can see it being fair with no freq hopping. If you don't, Nrg.exe will just form a private freq and tear everyone apart (and yes, i've considered the fact that Nrg.exe only currently has 5 members and they might be facing larger numbers on opposing teams, but they're the best flaggers in the zone and 3 out of my 5 Obsidian members might not even show ). Believe me, I've seen it happen many times, as much as XDOOM, bb, and kick may disagree with me on this. Don't believe me? I hate to drag up ancient Deva history, but I deem it relevant to the topic here.. As I recall, it was XDOOM's Nrg private freq years ago that formed, and XDOOM lagged through a bunch of bursts/bullets and his team won the 97 million point jackpot (at that time, a Deva record). Not that it was the ONLY reason, but it was the last straw for most and the end of Deva's most successful period of existence. People were so pissed some left for good, and the zone The Abyss was eventually formed. How do I remember? Well, it was a HUGE jp at the time....and I was on the losing team. It stung for a long time. (EDIT: AND YES, I know you are currently on cable, XDOOM, I'm just citing an example of how one person forming a private freq can drastically effect the outcome of a big flag game in Deva where lag is almost always prevalent.) As much as I want my squadmates on my freq, I must say I am totally against allowing the formation of private freqs..especially after those same people have been on a pub freq nearly the entire duration of a flag game and just get fed up with newer players and decide to form a private. I know, I've seen it happen countless times in EG and a myriad of other flagging zones with newer players playing the entire time (like myself) only to be deserted and torn apart by teammates leaving a freq to form a private with their squadmates or close friends. Does this defeat the purpose of squads? I don't think so, since there are only 2 squads with 5 players or more (Nrg.exe and Obsidian). If you want to win top points in a mega jp game (or in the zone overall), you can live without the immediate help of your squadmates for one day. It also helps the newer players learn when they see your basing strategies and how you work as a team ...that's how I learned to be a compe!@#$%^&*ive flagger/fighter in Deva. And so yet another bible-length post from TM is complete. Do what you can to make it as fair as possible for all players, SOS. More rides on these big flag games than you may think. --TM_Master OUT... Edited January 6, 2006 by tm_master
»SOS Posted January 6, 2006 Author Report Posted January 6, 2006 (edited) Thanks for the bible Well, private teams can be annoying, yes... how about we just limit privates to 3 per team? That'd remove the chance of them winning big games. Anyway, even if that problem is gone, the freqhopper question on pub freqs remains. Any bibles about that? The best option I see it would be:3 per private teambot to record freqhopsa warning or so, not very harsh except for real repeat offendersI am definitely against any team-evening bot since they just piss people off in low-player games. Some unevenness is not that bad. Edited January 6, 2006 by SOS
XDOOM Posted January 6, 2006 Report Posted January 6, 2006 I agree with SOS 3 person private freqs pub-only teams But this is how I would like pub to work. Max per team: 12 Zone starts with 2 teams. If zone goes over that 24 person playing limited a 3rd pub team is formed. A bot will message that a 3rd team is formed and that anybody may switch to this team if desired Bots allow people to change freqs only if there is an unbalance.
»SOS Posted January 6, 2006 Author Report Posted January 6, 2006 (edited) Bots allow people to change freqs only if there is an unbalance I think that's a bit too harsh, since players don't really like their freedoms limited. I think any enforcing of evenness should be done by moderators when there really is a big problem. Edited January 6, 2006 by SOS
»T-Man Posted January 7, 2006 Report Posted January 7, 2006 Hmm. interesting topic.. Out of the posts, I agree with the 3 per private freq/12 per pub. as far as evening the team I don't think it should be forced. It's too annoying when you can't switch..As for the freq hopping, it should be a rule that you can't do so without permission from team... ppl do share points and just make mods look for this/enforce the rule. anywho, i don't think its a huge deal on freq hopping.. although it is really annoying.
XDOOM Posted January 7, 2006 Report Posted January 7, 2006 Okay, how is this. Freqs are locked (except for new players or players entering from spec) while a jackpot is being won (somebody has all 25 flags, or 1 team has all 25 flags). Once they are neuted you are permitted to switch again, and moderators can watch out for it. The bot can easily do the locking-part and warn anybody who tries. Also, maybe make it such that the locking happens only for a worth-while jackpot ... so it must be over, say 5 million points.This way teams dont get insta-locked when the game just started. So this would prevent flag-hopping right before a win. SOS would also add in the rules that freq-hopping is illegal at all times, and we can moderate it with worse-case scenario being a spec.Natuarlly, the worst case is that a guy is going to all the good teams (the ones who are winning), not the other way around (somebody changes freqs to help the worst team).
kick me!! Posted January 7, 2006 Report Posted January 7, 2006 Well, if you want to know what I think, with my experience in big Deva flag games... Make it Pub-Only and autobalance teams with the bot (i.e. freq 0 and freq 1 or more depending on the amount of people that ac!@#$%^&*ulate, although I honestly don't think we'll get more than 20, so 10 vs. 10 would be perfect). That's the ONLY way I can see it being fair with no freq hopping. If you don't, Nrg.exe will just form a private freq and tear everyone apart (and yes, i've considered the fact that Nrg.exe only currently has 5 members and they might be facing larger numbers on opposing teams, but they're the best flaggers in the zone and 3 out of my 5 Obsidian members might not even show ). Believe me, I've seen it happen many times, as much as XDOOM, bb, and kick may disagree with me on this. Don't believe me? I hate to drag up ancient Deva history, but I deem it relevant to the topic here.. As I recall, it was XDOOM's Nrg private freq years ago that formed, and XDOOM lagged through a bunch of bursts/bullets and his team won the 97 million point jackpot (at that time, a Deva record). Not that it was the ONLY reason, but it was the last straw for most and the end of Deva's most successful period of existence. People were so pissed some left for good, and the zone The Abyss was eventually formed. How do I remember? Well, it was a HUGE jp at the time....and I was on the losing team. It stung for a long time. (EDIT: AND YES, I know you are currently on cable, XDOOM, I'm just citing an example of how one person forming a private freq can drastically effect the outcome of a big flag game in Deva where lag is almost always prevalent.) As much as I want my squadmates on my freq, I must say I am totally against allowing the formation of private freqs..especially after those same people have been on a pub freq nearly the entire duration of a flag game and just get fed up with newer players and decide to form a private. I know, I've seen it happen countless times in EG and a myriad of other flagging zones with newer players playing the entire time (like myself) only to be deserted and torn apart by teammates leaving a freq to form a private with their squadmates or close friends. Does this defeat the purpose of squads? I don't think so, since there are only 2 squads with 5 players or more (Nrg.exe and Obsidian). If you want to win top points in a mega jp game (or in the zone overall), you can live without the immediate help of your squadmates for one day. It also helps the newer players learn when they see your basing strategies and how you work as a team ...that's how I learned to be a compe!@#$%^&*ive flagger/fighter in Deva. And so yet another bible-length post from TM is complete. Do what you can to make it as fair as possible for all players, SOS. More rides on these big flag games than you may think. --TM_Master OUT... I completely Agree with TM. NRG was THEE best flagging squad (not being bias or anything)But yeah, I do remember those times and people DID leave..That could still happened, so Pub freqs would be rather nice I agree with SOS 3 person private freqs pub-only teams But this is how I would like pub to work. Max per team: 12 Zone starts with 2 teams. If zone goes over that 24 person playing limited a 3rd pub team is formed. A bot will message that a 3rd team is formed and that anybody may switch to this team if desired Bots allow people to change freqs only if there is an unbalance. Sounds good, basically, the PRIV freqs are only for dog-fights And btw, about that last statement. Even if you had it, it wouldn't make a difference. People that got switch will be like, 'wtf?', and go into spec, making the teams uneven again. Once it evens up, that person will just hop onto their team again. I've seen it done in many zones...but it shouldn't matter because we aren't using it anyways.
tm_master Posted January 10, 2006 Report Posted January 10, 2006 Freqs are locked (except for new players or players entering from spec) while a jackpot is being won (somebody has all 25 flags, or 1 team has all 25 flags). Once they are neuted you are permitted to switch again, and moderators can watch out for it. So this would prevent flag-hopping right before a win. SOS would also add in the rules that freq-hopping is illegal at all times, and we can moderate it with worse-case scenario being a spec.Natuarlly, the worst case is that a guy is going to all the good teams (the ones who are winning), not the other way around (somebody changes freqs to help the worst team). I must say I don't like this idea, it just seems like it might piss people off in the long run. First off, if people in spec can enter onto a freq right before a win, why would that stop people from doing what they do in zones like EG: spec off of the losing team and wait for a spot on the team they think will win to open or just spec and re-enter on the winning freq. Also, what if the scenarios you mentioned actually occured..? What if someone has been on a priv dogfighting and wants to join a freq to help a squaddie (whether that squaddie be on a winning or losing freq)...? The winning team could be a single person who's pinned down in a base in dire need of help and doesn't want to neut. I realize I'm contradicting myself here when I said to make it Pub-Only and autobalance teams with the bot, but with my idea there would be less of a chance of freq-hopping overall during an event, and therefore, nothing to moderate for special situations or right before the win. Plus, nobody except kick seems to agree with my idea, so I just wanted to point out the flaws as I saw them in XDOOM's post. Okay, at this point I'm !@#$%^&*uming all this continued discussion is regarding the next mega jackpot event. I didn't think we were considering doing this on an every-day basis..We have to remember that we don't have many regular players who aren't vets, so we can't limit people's freedoms too much (I consider an event an exception). Therefore, trying to moderate such a rule right now seems pointless. Also, I realized after I typed that huge argument against private freqs in my above post that more than 3 freqs makes no sense in Devastation anyway with the current map. Since there are only 3 bases on the map, any more than 3 freqs will result in annoying dogfighting at the base entrances and annoying flanks (i.e. EG) and will make it ultimately easier on the defending basing team. All the more reason to limit it to no more than 2 or 3 decent sized pub freqs during an event. --TM_Master OUT...
»SOS Posted January 10, 2006 Author Report Posted January 10, 2006 I certainly was not talking about events, but normal play. Of course I do agree that we don't have enough players to start enforcing such rules. Still, if it really bothers people, it can be enforced. But if there are no complaints or the jackpot is meaningless, an action by a moderator would only anger the player. And I definitely agree that an automated solution would just spawn some spec-and-enter-when-possible crap and just be a general nuisance. Also, slightly off-topic, but I totally hate 3-team games since they make the fight way too hard for the attackers in the already easy to defend bases. We will definitely have to stay with 2 teams for flagging before we have enough players to start experimenting.
Recommended Posts