aesop

I think the solution is Richard's redesign of SS, where he has the ability to code in the kinds of changes the game needs. Such as, a tiered playing system to separate players by skill levels. I haven't seen Richard mention this, but he would have the ability to add new content and therefore reduce the skill gap through evolving game dynamics. The 10,000 hour warbird vet is countered by the 10 hour newb exploiting a new technique in a new ship that people are still learning to use. As it is, the SS game has several critical design flaws (stemming from its age) that need to be addressed by a developer. I realized I didn't add a suggestion on how to help, which is not very helpful. So, here goes: Split map solution. Or map within a map, however you choose to think about it. If the map was split into 2 sections, considering the size, it should be possible, you can effectively separate vets from newbs, but consolidate the population and improve chat. You have a newb side and vet side, maybe the maps are copies side by side, or similar but different maps, or maybe very different entirely. This way new players can observe vets, talk with vets, but play against newbs. The vets would be able to moderate the newb side of the map (they are already in the zone playing) but won't be able to fight the newbs. How to implement this would be the challenge, given the limits of the existing client.

Hi Richard, I'm a bit busy with real life, but would love to help out with map design and theory crafting if you're in the market for another helper. Cheers, aesop

I had to take a break from map making, I was burning alot of time--so I'll be back in a few months when my studies are a bit less demanding--Hallu has a copy of the most recent map if anyone wants to fiddle with it. BTW, what a terrible site for uploading stuff to--I thought the forum had an upload function, now I know! Cheers!

So its not the map, thanks Hallu for putting it up and testing it. Looks like its something about my server config that is broken--such a shame, it worked fine until I started tweaking the tileset, but now its in-op!

No reps is so much better! Makes the game a ton more fun--in my opinion the rep, an item which a single player can hold multiple copies of and effects all players in the vicinity, is more than a tad overpowered!

Still no go--re-installed continuum, DCME and the server folder, verified all values in .ini files. Here is the Subbill, Server, and map files. http://www.filehosting.org/file/details/398434/subbill.ini http://www.filehosting.org/file/details/398433/server.ini http://www.filehosting.org/file/details/398435/Snowflake7.lvl Has anyone been able to try loading the map into a localhost server to see if it actually is the map?

Here is the map--if someone is willing to try running it [on a local server] to see if it is my DCME/Subspace server folder I would appreciate it. http://www.filehosti.../Snowflake6.lvl

Ok, so I captured the error the subgame was giving, then auto closing, it says: Could not find specified file (changeme.lvl). Make sure a level file with this name is in the server directory. So, if I change the title of my .lvl to "changeme.lvl", the subgame won't auto close, but it won't find the billing server. Any ideas? The tileset is quite nice, and there is alot of work (the tedious kind) in the map now, rather than just structure it is looks that I want to hold on to, so I need to find a way to get this tileset to work! http://img15.imagefra.me/i5bs/aesop/11tl_bcf_ucyhi.png

BTW, I'm also trying to figure out how to change a regular tile into a "fly under" or "fly over" tile. And I'm trying to figure out how to get a .gif into the tileset (similar to the goal tile that flashes colors).

Ok, so I reduced my text size--but got the tileset to load by exporting the tileset, and editing the entire thing in paint. Then simply importing it. But, now the map seems broken... After launching the Subbill, when attempting to launch Subgame, the Subgame won't load--it flashes up for a second then closes, similar to when you have the zone pointing to an incorrect .lvl in your server settings. So, I tested it by going back to the old bzw.lvl, which worked fine, but any map I import the tileset to results in the Subgame failingng to load. Any ideas? Here is the tileset: [edit: tileset below]

Keep getting an error--tile needs to be 304x160 pixels and 8 or 24 bit. The tile I'm making is 24 bit color, and 16x16, just like the tile it is replacing. Any idea what the problem is?

I currently don't have access to the minegoboom forums, and wanted to ask how to alter an existing tileset. I would like to swap 2 tiles, so that the "goal" tiles on the map are all replaced with a new, similar .gif. I need to know, assuming it is possible, how to swap the tiles, and how to create a tile which I can load into the existing tileset. Anyone know how to do this? http://img14.imagefra.me/i5bq/aesop/12c3_afa_ucyhi.png

So I got a zone going which helped me finish a map--but I wanted to try and edit the "greens" so that, like on the Halloween map, the "greens" have a new icon. On the Halloween map they were pumpkins, and I was hoping to make them "presents". Also, any idea how to make it so when holding a flag, a ships abilities are increased, i.e. stronger guns, bombs?

I think what means is, a long time down the road, Richard could form a gaming company, if the product he builds is successful. I think having player run servers is the perfect place to develop the game, but long term the community would need to settle on a standard that everyone enjoys (that would become the finished game) and can be marketed successfully--this means a map, physics, and play style. LOL has created 2 unique game styles that are very different, but the core of their product is the equivalent of SS 4v4 (LOL is 5v5). I think the reason for this league style play being so successful is players want to "win". Freeplay (Chaos zone) is fun, and a great way to learn, but "winning" and rankings are typically more universally rewarding experiences for players who will invest in a game--meaning, get good at it, and put money into it. Here is a bit of history about Riot, the gamers who took a Warcraft 3 scenario map and made it into alot more: Riot Games, Inc. was founded in 2006 by entrepreneurial gamers, Brandon "Ryze" Beck and Marc "Tryndamere" Merrill, with the goal of being a player-focused game development studio. The company launched its debut title League of Legends in October 2009[3] On May 1, 2012, Riot Game announced its Season 2 Championship with a $2,000,000 prize pool, the largest in eSports history.[4] Some of their notable employees include Steve "Guinsoo" Feak, a former developer of the Warcraft 3 custom map Defense of the Ancients and Steve "Pendragon" Mescon, creator of the Defense of the Ancients fan site, DotA-Allstars.com.[5] Riot Games also employs about a dozen former Blizzard developers, including Tom Cadwell.[6] Riot Games obtained around US$1 million from venture capital firms to create League of Legends. In later rounds of funding, the company raised $8 million in capital from venture capital firms Benchmark Capital and FirstMark Capital.[12] In early 2011, the Chinese company Tencent Holdings invested in a majority stake in Riot Games valued at $400 million, according to Dow Jones business news.[13] The deal allowed Riot Games to maintain independent operations and its existing management team.[14]

I think it may also be important to point out that the reason players are hosting their own zones is because the game hasn't been commercially successful. If the game becomes commercially successful, the zones would (ideally) become centrally operated. That doesn't mean other players can't "do their own thing", but the strategic objective would be creating a product people will pay for, which is quite different than players hosting their own zones. I do understand this may violate the sense of culture that currently exists.

Here are some examples of the LOL store, with "upgrades", skins, and new "ships". http://media-titanium.cursecdn.com/attachments/thumbnails/42/966/630/630/quint-runes-store.png http://media-titanium.cursecdn.com/attachments/thumbnails/41/543/630/630/runes2.PNG http://2.bp.blogspot.com/__ngYh18PBGg/S7_u-DZQZ6I/AAAAAAAAAEk/QD8JkNslsE8/s1600/lol_store.jpg http://cdn.garenanow.com/webupdate/live/lolphweb/news/2011-10-19/dakilang-maninibat.jpg

Hmmm, I think I understand what you mean. To counter your "capitalism isn't good for society" argument I think someone could say "you don't need *stuff* to look good", and because everything in the game is technically free, you in fact don't need to pay anything. As an example, I have played LOL for over a year, and have paid $0 thus far, and I am just as competitive as my opponents. I don't feel inadequate when my opponents have skins different from mine. I do see it as an investment on their part, and tend to expect better gameplay from them--but this isn't always the case. Sometimes they are not very good players, but enjoy playing with a different skin. I think this is where the vision and strategy for the game becomes important. But, the technical problems you mentioned about how the community would be organized, especially considering how it is currently organized, is very important. The zones issue would be a big deal. LOL has 2 maps/game types run by company servers. I personally think of the custom zones, which are often poorly implemented, as a gimmick--unless there is a particular zone that players play. Again, that was how LOL began, it was originally a player map scenario in Warcraft 3 that a few players thought they could turn it into a game, and they did. So, it became more than a hobby, they made a business. Could they have implemented multiple scenarios? Yes, but by focusing on the strengths of the game people enjoyed they were able to develop a stronger product. I see this as 4v4 and Chaos zone settings, which are very unique game types. I personally think the strengths of the SS game are found in these two game types, and that the possibility for generating revenue as a free to play game is a real possibility. But again, maybe Richard and the community don't want that. Just tossing out ideas. To reaffirm the LOL strategy--you do NOT need to pay anything to succeed. All players are equal. The "upgrades" listed above would be purchase with two types of currency, the 1st is earned in game by everyone, and the 2nd is paid for by people who would rather have the upgrades now. So, you don't need a big car or a flashy ship to beat people--that would violate the strengths of the game, which are skill based.

So, besides selling skins for ships, new ships that differentiate the battlefield, you also sell digital objects that augment: Top Speed Acceleration Forward Acceleration Reverse Reduced Bomb Pushback Increased Bomb Pushback Total Health Recharge Rate Damage Reduction Bomb Damage Bomb Damage Radius Bomb Shrapnel Damage Bomb Energy cost (is this offensive or defensive?) Gun energy cost +% Bomb Homing +% Gun Homing Ship abilities ranging from increased damage to low health targets, increased health, unique items and abilities, etc. Greening could be split into green items, and green money, and bot ships could be added (AI coding....) which award money when killed. Players can purchase Thors, or purchase upgrades that put Thors on a 1 time use 45 second cooldown, same with reps. Infinite possibilities. BTW, the customization screen above would need some form a "generic ship" template, rather than a warbird, I would think that all players should have access to the same number and type of customization options, but that is just my opinion. New ships could have unique loadouts, which may increase player incentives to purchase them.

Here is a very rough picture with MS Paint to give you an idea of customization options players can "invest" in: http://img14.imagefra.me/i5bo/aesop/iix1_e8e_ucyhi.png

Purchasing a new "ship" in LoL costs about $7. Purchasing a new ship in SS could cost $5. Alternatively, about one week of heavy play and a player could purchase that ship for free. However, the way points are awarded--an RPG grind in LOL, would not apply to SS, considering that playing SS for such long periods of time may not be as rewarding as a game you can "win" (LOL is a matched based game, like a 4v4 league match, rather than freeplay, i.e. Chaos Zone). Excuse the links, the chart didn't copy well. http://leagueoflegen...iki/Riot_Points Prices of Riot Points Riot Points NA 650http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091017165556/leagueoflegends/images/thumb/8/8c/RpPoints.png/20px-RpPoints.png 1380data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIABAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAEALAAAAAABAAEAQAICTAEAOw%3D%3D 2800data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIABAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAEALAAAAAABAAEAQAICTAEAOw%3D%3D 5000data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIABAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAEALAAAAAABAAEAQAICTAEAOw%3D%3D 7200data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIABAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAEALAAAAAABAAEAQAICTAEAOw%3D%3D 15000data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIABAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAEALAAAAAABAAEAQAICTAEAOw%3D%3D US Dollar $5.00 $10.00 $20.00 $35.00 $50.00 $100.00 Canadian Dollar $4.89 $9.78 $19.57 $34.24 $48.92 $97.84 Riot Points EU 839data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIABAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAEALAAAAAABAAEAQAICTAEAOw%3D%3D 1779data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIABAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAEALAAAAAABAAEAQAICTAEAOw%3D%3D 3612data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIABAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAEALAAAAAABAAEAQAICTAEAOw%3D%3D 6451data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIABAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAEALAAAAAABAAEAQAICTAEAOw%3D%3D 9305data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIABAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAEALAAAAAABAAEAQAICTAEAOw%3D%3D Euro €5.00 €10.00 €20.00 €35.00 €50.00 Pound £4.50 £9.01 £18.03 £31.56 £45.09 Riot Points BR 650data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIABAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAEALAAAAAABAAEAQAICTAEAOw%3D%3D 1380data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIABAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAEALAAAAAABAAEAQAICTAEAOw%3D%3D 2800data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIABAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAEALAAAAAABAAEAQAICTAEAOw%3D%3D 5000data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIABAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAEALAAAAAABAAEAQAICTAEAOw%3D%3D 7200data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIABAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAEALAAAAAABAAEAQAICTAEAOw%3D%3D 14600data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIABAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAEALAAAAAABAAEAQAICTAEAOw%3D%3D Brazil Real R$8,50 R$17,00 R$34,00 R$59,50 R$85,00 R$170,00 Value The following table represents the value of common Riot Point prices when purchasing the respective smallest possible packages via PayPal or similar. Riot Points 260data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIABAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAEALAAAAAABAAEAQAICTAEAOw%3D%3D 390data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIABAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAEALAAAAAABAAEAQAICTAEAOw%3D%3D 520data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIABAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAEALAAAAAABAAEAQAICTAEAOw%3D%3D 585data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIABAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAEALAAAAAABAAEAQAICTAEAOw%3D%3D 975data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIABAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAEALAAAAAABAAEAQAICTAEAOw%3D%3D 1820data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIABAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAEALAAAAAABAAEAQAICTAEAOw%3D%3D US Dollar $2.00 $3.00 $4.00 $4.50 $7.50 $14.00 Euro €1.55 €2.32 €3.10 €3.49 €5.81 €10.85 Brazil Real R$3,40 R$5,10 R$6,80 R$7,65 R$12,75 R$25,50 Although many people claim that Legendary Skins cost $20, this table shows that their actual cost is $14, not considering any bonus points gained by purchasing larger bundles of Riot Points. Some online payment methods will grant you more points for your money than others. Purchasing points with a mobile phone for example, yields less net income of points, as opposed to using PayPal for the transaction.

Final version posted above, post edited!

Hi, sorry for the late reply. I'm glad everyone is discussing the revenue options, and that the general attitude, players and developer, are about maintaining an open, free to play vision. I think getting into specifics regarding revenue (dollar amount) may be somewhat premature--however, the idea you mentioned about a "donate option" coupled with the game sounds very reasonable in the near term. Over the long term I think a vision and business strategy should be considered to help drive the game, and possible revenue, in a consistent and well defined direction that is in line with the gameplay. Regarding marketing, I think product development should be the number 1 priority right now, especially considering marketing is a cost. So, why not wait until you know what you have, and what it may be worth. Implementing a marketing strategy < Product development in this particular market. Just my .02. I'll look into what may be a good strategy to pursue and the costs involved for you though. The SS game has solid gameplay that I think, like you mentioned in your development posts, would transition well to mobile devices. How you code the gameplay, and how the game is displayed for mobile users, assuming they are integrated with pc-based users, will have a critical impact on the gameplay, and may make or break the product (mobile users have smaller screens, we all know SS players with a larger screen see more, and thus play "better"). So, the reason I wanted to ask about this stuff is: 1): The "store" option, so customiztion, which creates user specific conditions that are then loaded into the actual game and will affect things such as turn rate, ship choice, or graphics, should probably be considered during the initial development. 2): Resolving the mobile vs. PC dilemma with SS gameplay is important to increasing your player base. A mobile capable game has a much wider audience than PC only--plus, mobile only games don't necessarily require intense 3D graphics, which is a weakness of SS (a 2D game). So, I thought League of Legends (LOL) is the best place to look for ideas about revenue. Here's why: The game is free to play, has a very large player base, is techinically 2D, but its design prevents implementation on mobile devices. So, assuming a strategy can be developed to increase the depth of the SS game, through customization, which leverages the strengths of the gameplay, and has a revenue generating function, you could hit the "Angry birds meets League of Legends" jackpot. LOL generates revenue the same way the fashion industry does--they sell things that change a person's appearance, but how successful a player in LOL is still based on their skill as a decision maker. The skill of SS players will still be twitch (hand eye coordination), however, the methods players kill other players can change (new ship types), the way their favorite ship looks can change (multiple versions of the warbird ship art), and you can create a monetary system based upon success within the game (killing players) that players can spend on items that increase their ships stats by arguably negligible amounts (+3% turn rate, +3% bomb damage, +1.5% top speed). Specifically, LOL uses items called "runes", each player has about 15 or so slots for a rune of any specific type. You can purchase these runes on day 1, for money, or earn them over the course of about a month of heavy playing. Having no runes doesn't significantly reduce you chances of beating a player, but they help. The store in a SS game could have something very similar--a ship with positions for items related to offense or defense. We can talk at length about the depth of the LOL customization, but the key is that it is a large part of the game, and the investment psychologically cements the game with players, who will want to return to the game. Just theorizing more specifically a bit here, bear with me: A ship with a higher HP, that when it collides with bombs, and nearby players are within the blast radius, absorbs all of the damage, rather than sharing it with nearby teammates. A ship with a active field of a certain radius that damages enemy players who are in it. A ship that shoots bombs that disable an enemy ship, similar to an engine shut down. A ship that can "loop" a la Star Fox, and dodge any bomb or bullet that passes within range during the "loop" maneuver. Infinite possibilities--just like in fashion, and that is what you would be selling, really, just digital fashion. I think it would be fun to sit down and design a very crude customization sheet to give an idea of how it could work--I'll sit down and draw something out, scan it, and put it up here and we can all talk about it.

Richard, It looks good--very professional. Have you thought at all about providing players with customization options, similar to League of Legends, which can be earned over time, or purchased outright? The reason I bring it up is, this model seems like a good way to keep a game free to play, and I think it increases retention by rewarding players for their time investment. Any thoughts on this?

Why are there 2 separate development teams working on two versions of the same game? Edit: I see now that there are two individuals who are creating updated versions of the same game. What are the chances we can get them to work together on one version?

Is it possible for me to host my own zone on my personal computer to test maps I create, anyone know?