Aileron

yeah, I guess it would be best if this topic resumed. "Pulling the plug" refers to removing medical care to somebody already dead. There is certainly nothing wrong with that. Euthanasia involves killing or ceasing treatment to somebody barely alive, but it is controversial in itself...one cannot use one contraversial issue to prove another. Executions and War is different. They require grand justifications to overrule the right to life, and everyone will agree that if the world was a perfect place neither would be necessary. I know in a previous post I said that the right to life cannot be overruled by another's right to liberty. Wars for instance require massive justifications, such as the liberty of an entire country or presence of m!@#$%^&* executions. Executions are similar, but as I said, one cannot use one contraversial issue to prove another. This however is slightly off the issue. The difference between war, euthanasia, and murder are irrelevent to what we have in mind. Abortion is different than "pulling the plug", because the fetus is alive. (otherwise it would be labeled as a miscarriage) Abortion is clearly different than executions because the fetus could not possibly commit crimes. Abortion is different than war, because killing the fetus cannot possibly advance any great cause. Abortion is very similar to euthanasia however, though is very different in terms of the arguement I am using, because a fetus has a future life of personhood, wheras the dying patient does not. My opinion on euthanasia btw is that the doctors should decide what to do on a case by case basis, and politicians and lawyers should pretty much keep their hands off, though government should still regulate enough to prevent quacks from forming suicide clinics.

Mistake? What mistake? You were behaving disrespectfully to another poster. If you didn't push the issue I wouldn't have even cared, because arguements can easily get heated. However, you went back and reinserted your insults.

"Censorship" my !@#$%^&*. The one rule everyone here agrees upon is that one shouldn't call people names or be disrespectfull of other posters. You weren't discussing abortion, you were calling Dr. Worthless names. "So and So is a moron" and "So and So is ignorant" does not qualify as truth. Manuevering one's arguement away from the direct fire lanes an one's opponant doesn't cons!@#$%^&*ute ignoring somebody's post. If I was a "bookburner", I'd be editing Montezuma's posts...he's the one presenting the intelligent left-wing arguements. I was still careful to leave all of the political and logical meat intact to your posts. If your arguement held up before, it held up afterwards...(except in the two posts where there was no arguement). You are right, there is no comparison between Worthless' posts an yours...he doesn't have to resort to namecalling to get his point accrossed. I don't agree with the logic he uses to arrive at his conclusion at all (I agree with the conclusion, but not how he supports it.) However, what is important here is that his logic is not dependant upon his opponant being "ignorant" or "a moron". I think this line sums up your whole problem: Who decides what information is and is not necessary to post on the internet? How is it determined when a person does not have said information? By what authority is it your job to enforce posters having this necessary information? And the best part is that you make the ludicrous claim that I am the one censoring, when you were the one who decided to appoint yourself as the legislature, president, judge, policeman and jailer of internet conversation. You don't have the power or authority to manage your self appointed position (heck, I'm the mod here and I don't have it), so you decided to attempt namecall Dr. Worthless until he gets sick of it and quits. Which is where I come in...its my job to keep people posting here. Since calling people names causes people to quit coming over the long term, it cannot be tolerated. You might be right though...I made two mistakes as moderator. The first one was that I didn't edit out your insults before Worthless had to read them. The second is that I was too nice to you this morning. While the two of are discussing God, how about I point out another thing He says: "Those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." You exalted yourself to the position of internet police, now you are being humbled. All but one of your posts will be re-edited, and will be deleted if you do as much as move a comma. You will be put on warn for the continued harr!@#$%^&*ment of Dr. Worthless. Oh, and that pun of yours was intentional...there are plenty of synanyms to the word "worthless".

Its clear a zygote is human, the only one who mentioned animals is Ducky, who frankly never takes the time to understand an opponant's position and loves his straw man arguements. While a zygote is a dice roll, so is life in general. We all agree murder is wrong. As I keep claiming, murder is wrong because the victim has a future life of personhood. That may not ALWAYS be the case in reality. The victim could have been fated to get run over by a bus a few seconds after somebody murdered him. However, its still murder, even if the probably of the victim getting run over by the bus is as high as a zygote not attaching. A zygote has a future life. While this future isn't certain, no future of life is ever certain and therefore certainty of life is not a requirement for murder. Thus abortion takes away from the zygote just as much as murder takes from an adult.

ROFL!!! Wait, so I should edit Worthless' posts because the quotes he is making is "ugly", but should allow you to call him names like a five year old? Of the two of you, he was the one actually discussing abortion! All of i88gerbils' demeaning and childish comments have been edited. Worthless, I also had to edit your last post, though I kept it light and do understand that your patience ran out. I'll leave some of the stuff I would normally edit out. You were in a position where you had to respond like that, and responsability rests on i88gerbils for starting the fight and myself for not catching it in time.

This thread was dead and should stay that way. It was little more than a flamewar the first time around. I'm going to lock this one.

erm...how could you ressurect Tex? He wasn't dead, just trapped in a basement with the cognative ability of a 3 yr old.

*grabs rock* *shoots Tex in the nads with slingshot* *before he recovers, runs up to him and knocks him down* *sits on top of Tex so that my massive fat !@#$%^&* prevents him from moving* *scoops out Tex's eyeballs with rusty s!@#$%^&** *picks up some of the broken window gl!@#$%^&* on the ground* *crams gl!@#$%^&* into Tex's eye sockets* (has thick gloves on so my hands don't get cut) *uses posts of the slingshot to drive the gl!@#$%^&* further in, passing through the eye sockets of the skull straight on into the frontal lobe* (this would destroy his higher brain functions, though he would still be able to walk, breath, moniter heartbeat, etc.) *carries Tex to a basement* *throws Tex in basement* *grabs a nearby timebomb, with a five minute countdown, that can be turned off by simply pressing the 'off' button* *arms bomb and throws it in basement* *closes the heavy steel door* *slips in SeVeR's tank while he is wondering* *drives tank to basement and parks it on top of the door* *clears area and moves to safe distance*

The only rules you have to follow are in white.

Ducky, murder of an animal is indeed wrong if the animal is someday going to metamorphisise into a human being. However, all known animals don't, so hence the difference. Monte, I only intended that as a weak analogy. The point is that if something has a right to life, that right supercedes the right to choice of somebody else. Its wrong to choose to end someone else's life. I'm saying the fetus has a right to life not from current personhood, but by future personhood. That is because future personhood is the only thing taken away from the victim in murder. As for making mistakes, I agree that mistakes should be forgiven to an extent, but no one has the right to take a third person's life to cover for their own mistakes.

*puts on some thick leather gloves* Alright, I'm armored up.

[jeez...that's a little bit of overkill...the only person who doesn't like complex who posted here was Tex] CreatiX...I didn't know your name was Fred. Primary Weapon: Slingshot Secondary Weapon: Rusty S!@#$%^&*

*Aileron is busy trying to hump Lois Lane through the kryptonite when superman shows up so superman gets really mad and laser-eyes Ailerons legs off* *throws a lump of kyptonite at Superman, knocking him unconcious* *crawls over the the medic 200 machine, which quickly reattaches all limbs* Well, if there are no anti-complex ppl here, this is going to be very boring. *Finds Tex's body* *ressurects Tex* *throws rabbit at Tex* *rabbit bites off all of Tex's fingers*

[OOC]Post edited accordingly. Sorry for doing that, but it would be strange to describe it without dialog.[/OOC] Dr. Blake and company left the sewers. The Kanatis military was curious how he am!@#$%^&*ed such a force. The explanation given was that it was a combination of Cybertech security personelle and concerned citizens. He then made a speech, tying this event to his bid running for the Kanatis presidency.[OOC]Admittingly bull!@#$%^&* and unbelievable, but give me a break. If it were my choice, I would have left the mutant flies in the sewers and had the Kanatis security forces deal with them. I'm not roleplaying a pest exterminator.[/OOC] Upon returning to the office, he checked the reports of the pursuit of the agent who broke into his lab, only to find that all of his goons were killed. This failure was very upsetting to him. Years of work went into this plot, and just now as it is almost completed, someone has a hint as to what is going on. He knew that all the data she had was undoubtedly destroyed when the EMP bombs broke through her escape ship's shields, so she had no proof...but proof or not the eyes of authority would still be pointed at him. The one thing he didn't need to fear was the goons being traced back to him. The fact that they carried no id and their memories were wiped prior to the mission !@#$%^&*ured this. Ail had to accelerate his plans. That night he ordered the kidnapping of the Kanatis implant safety inspectors. They were drugged in their sleep. They were brought to Blake's secret laboratory, where surgical staff quickly inserted versions of the CTMI 5600 into their brains. They then were returned to their beds. None of them had any memory of any of this, and awoke the next morning with no suspicians whatsoever.

The "every sperm is sacred" joke a small sidepoint in the FTO arguement. While the fetus has a future life, a sperm does not. It will either die off on its own, or be destroyed when it fertilizes an egg. Its wrong to kill a being which has a future of personhood. Since at the sperm and egg stage there is no such being, killing off sperms and eggs are allowed at this point. Suppose a woman had a five year old nephew. Her rich father died recently, and left his entire fortune to his grandson(the nephew). If the nephew died, the fortune would p!@#$%^&* to the aunt. Does the fact that the aunt is a living, self-sufficient, conscious, informed woman with an ability to make complex decisions based on information, personal experience and personal cir!@#$%^&*stances give her the right to murder the five year old who is far less sentient and has much less experience than she does? We say that she can't make this choice because it amounts to murder. Everyone's rights end where another person's rights begins. Since everybody has the right to enjoy the future portions of their personhood ie. an inallienable right to life, and since fetuses have a future of personhood, the woman has no rights to superceed over that right...even the inallienable right to liberty does not superceed this.

erm...wth? In your first post you killed CreatiX...now you support complex? Which side are you on? *crawls around inside SeVeR's body* *finds the ressurection machine* *resets the field to normal* *the Pet Shop is seperated from SeVeR and returns to normal* *SeVeR pops out of the ressurecton machine* *throws hamster at SeVeR* *hamster crawls up inside SeVeR's pants and bites off his _____*

[OOC] Sentient in this case means "stays the !@#$%^&* away from the guys with the flamethrowers"...since flies can't "acidify" something from a distance, they wouldn't be able to get close enough.[/OOC] When the 56 trillion flies couldn't be beaten by simple flamethrowers, it lead to a standoff. However, the Alliance military (who at this point has no reason to think Dr. Blake is up to something), did not take kindly to this invasion attempt by Flytopia. Fortunately, they had an army of 25 trillian jetpack outfitted frogs to deal with this sort of thing standing by. When released, the frogs inflicted massive casualties on the fly army, forcing them into a route all the way back to Flytopia. [OOC]SeVeR, I am REALLY close to editing your posts. This isn't a nonsensical topic. Your roleplaying my character into the sewers in the first place was a clear violation of the rules. I only went along with that because it allowed me to kill your character. Also, its illogical to assume that flies growing up in sewers would mutate...the only thing down there would be feces, which flies normally grow up around. Having 56 million sentient lifeforms support you with fanatical devotion when you attack a random person with no provocation is a superpower. You also skipped out on the portion where those 56 trillian flies would need to travel in ships...which at some point the Kanatis Alliance fleet would react to them. Did you even read the history? Just let Buzzuzz stay dead, and start over in a real character. The only reason that "humans only" isn't explicitley stated is that some people might prefer to roleplay androids, cyborgs, mutants, etc. You would probably prefer roleplaying a mutant pirate creating havok on the Kanatis trade routes anyway. Do you hate me so much that you have to destroy this topic for everybody?[/OOC]

Oh....good point. It is a long read. Okay, everything in blue (except the stuff inside the quote) is completely optional and you can ignore it if you like.

AHHHH!!! I CAN'T DECIDE WHETHER I LUV OR HATE COMPLEX NOW!!! *runs around the bar randomly* *trips* *falls into time machine that takes me back to my last post* *arrives from last post via time machine* *notices I'm no longer a Ail/guest hybrid...must be a paradox.* *sees SeVeR is still in eel tank, though the eels are dead.* *notices five strange rings on a shelf in the back* *uses five rings to summon Captain Planet (1990 era cartoon show)* Captain Planet lays the smackdown on Greased for killing all those animals. Captain Planet leaves *puts all the animals in the ressurection machines*

Dr. Blake's team burns the 56 trillion children with the flamethrowers as well. Since they are also attracted to the flames, they are quickly annihilated too.

*ties up SeVeR's corpse* *puts SeVeR's corpse into ressurection machine* *ressurrects SeVeR with one of the machines* *SeVeR loses angel status and wings, and is ressurected into a body that is tied up* *uses a mysterious science fiction machine in the back of the shop to open a one way gateway to !@#$%^&** *throws SeVeR into gateway* *closes gateway* *breaks the handle off of machine so that it can't be turned on again* *ressurects CreatiX* oh, I didn't notice the guest *taps the bullet-proof helmet I'm wearing* *grabs a nearby duck and throws it at the guest* "Cleanup in aisle 3!" is announced over the loudspeaker *storeclerk comes by and cleans up the guest's entrails* *arrives from next post via time machine* *stops SeVeR from strangling myself* *throws SeVeR in electric eel tank* *locks eel tank shut* [lock is part of tank, tank is part of pet shop, all of which are indestructible] *uses time machine to take me back to my next post*

Aileron's team happens to be armed with flamethrowers (accompanyed by heat protective suits). They fill the WHOLE passageways with hot flame. Since these are flies, they are actually attracted to the flames and move TOWARDS them rather than away from them, and even if they wanted to dodge the flames, they couldn't because they are filling up the entire corridors. The result is complete annihilation for the mutant flies as they are all burnt to a crisp, except for buzzuzz who is sentient enough to stay away from the flames. For him, Dr. Blake takes out the flyswatter he was carrying and swats buzzuzz with one swift smack.

*takes a shower...eggs are washed off and die down the drain* [OOC]Erm...superpowers...I was far away on Kanatis...you travelled faster than the speed of light on nothing but beating your wings...which btw doesn't work in space. Jeez, wth happened here? Quite a few people signed up, but the only serious players here are Manus and I.[/OOC]

LerrJett++...I obviously did NOT have the rape case in mind thank you very much. Monte, while you are correct in that the Apollo project did not require emotional resources, our country does happen to have those too. If the biological parents are unable to raise the child, there are plenty of people willing to adopt, or could be coaxed into adopting with the right program (50% off your taxes if you adopt an unwanted child would be an example of coaxing.) The point is we could make it work so that abortion isn't necessary. We just have to come up with a really smart plan, that may be unpopular...thus the problem is Congress. As for the regrets...I am right in that women always regret their abortions after they have them and never regret not having an abortion if they decide to give birth to the child, though I was sneaky. Its a biological effect of pregnancy. During pregnancy certain hormones in the woman's (or even the man's if you are looking towards post-modern cases) body are produced. These hormones affect their judgement, making them want to have the baby. The hormones are programmed in sequence with a normal pregnancy. If after nine months they don't get the reactions they would normally see for mothering a child, the "know" that something happened to the baby and the mother feels emotional pain. Thus, while my statement was correct, its the hormones and not the mind that is making the mother's joys/regrets in this case. Those women who made a "lifestyle choice" when they are perfectly capable of supporting the child are despicable, as are their husbands. While their legal right to abort is debatable, they have no moral right to abort in this case. l88gerbils, for ex. 1 its obviously right to seperate. (Abortion if not aborting kills the mother) ex. 2 means nothing and is a red herring ex. 3 You should stay attached to him, but the world should accomidate itself to you for those 9 months so that you don't have to make a decision to give up your career or dreams. ex. 4 you didn't change any paremeters The Thompson arguement is good, but you didn't cite it exactly. Besides, the arguement I gave (FTO) counters it except for cases of rape and if the mother's life is in danger. Paine, I'd rather make 2 people sacrifice one decision (which might be viewed as a consequence of one of their former decisions anyway) than have one person sacrifice his/her whole existence. The needs of the few do outweigh the wants and it-would-be-nice-ifs of the many. I mean, the term "shotgun wedding" comes from people marrying each other at gunpoint...which proves that most people would rather marry somebody than be shot. Thus, life is more important than choice in marriage.

[OOC] What the !@#$%^&* happened to everybody else that signed on? [/OOC] A few systems away on Kanatis... The annual Cybertech party that Dr. Blake was hosting had just started. Company employees and their families, as well as local political and business leaders were all celebrating. Dr. Blake was having a conversation with the safety inspectors for the CTMI 5600, when his secretary pulled him away for the annual toast. After a quick speech, Dr. Blake stepped down. There few quite a few more people here than on the guest list, and he was beginning to get nervous about all these people on his estate. He tried to convince himself that this fear was irrational - how could they know about the secret laboratory on the premises? Ofcourse, he kept a cool composure, smiling and pretending to be relaxed when on the inside was a growing need to oversee the security. Finally, he could hold the feeling down no more. He quitely slipped away from the party and strolled into his home office. He turned on the computer and set the moniter to show the feed from the hidden security cameras. The back corridors were empty. Dr. Blake gave a sigh of relief, but too soon. Just as he was about to turn the moniter off, one woman, appearing to be a guest at the party, showed up on the camera monitering the hallway to the lab. "Perhaps a lost guest?" Dr. Blake thought to himself. The rest of his mind did not really believe this, as he stared at the screen. The woman stopped infront of the lab door, made a quick glance up and down the hallway, and pulled a lockpicking device from out of the top of her dress. Dr. Blake scrambled to pick up his communicator. "Dr. Blake to security - We have an intruder in section E5. Repeat - Intruder in section E5!!!". Dr. Blake thought to help capture the intruder himself, but remembered that there still was a party downstairs. If they became suspicious, than this would all be over. Dr. Blake turned off the computer, and returned to the ballroom, where he found a few of his old buddies from Saggatus III, and they started to talk about the war.